I've never owned a rifle with a hammer-forged barrel before (at least not to my knowledge), but recently I bought a very cheap Remington SPR18 single shot in .308. This is a Russian made gun imported by Remington with the fit and finish to make a junk yard welder proud.

However, in spite of a 10 pound trigger pull with more stops than the New York subway system, The rifle shoots very, very good. Additionally, when breaking it in, I cleaned it after every three shots (later, five shots), and got out very little copper fouling. In fact, it is the least amount of fouling I have ever seen during break-in. It also was very slow to heat up, in spite of having a very trim barrel profile.

The only thing I can attibute these positive attributes to is the fact that the barrel is manufactured by hammer forging.

I know little about hammer-forged barrels, other than what I read when I Googled it. It seems like a very violent method of making a barrel, and I can't imagine how anyone ever came up with the idea of beating rifling into a barrel from the sides. But, obviously, it works!

Anybody else have similar experiences with hammer-forged barrels?

As far as I know, hammer forging barrels was invented by the Germans after WW-1. This was intended to overcome a Versailles treaty prohibition of them manufacturing rifled barrels. It appears the limitation must have been expressed in terms of the manufacturing process as opposed to the end result.

I have had both good and bad results with hammer forged barrels. Normally they foul quite a bit, but I also have some (Sako springs to mind) which hardly fowl at all. These barrels can be very accurate - e.g. Sako 6mm PPC.

- mike

THE issue I see with hammerforged barrels is entirely related to the material choices the manufacturers have stuck with rather than the manufacturering process.

the process has a host of advantages that simply aren't being used to their best advantage.

The Cr-Mo alloys and various stainless steel alloys (410, 412L & 416) were originally chosen for manufacturing rifle barrels not for their suitability as rifle barrels, but rather for the practicality of actually turning the raw material into barrels, in simpler words for machinability.

Hammer forged barrels avoid several machining steps so in truth materials COULD be used that are FAR less machinable
but would be far stronger and potentionally many times more durable... certain Miraging steels and Ni-Cr alloys containing NO
iron at all, that are impractical for rifle barrels because of difficulties in machining the material

I read a paper several decades ago about a prototype barrel made of an exotic alloy for an M60 machine gun that simply could not be destroyed by prolonged firing of the weapon.

On the order of 100,000 rounds with no perceptabe bore wear!

Imagine an exotic Ni-Cr-Mo-Co alloy barrel that simply CANNOT be destroyed on your favorite prarie dog rifle?

Or on your 257Wby

and the only machining required is exterior profiling, threading to the action, chambering and crowning...

the deep drilling, rifling, etc...are all neatly avoided by the hammer forging process, some H-F barrels are actually forged with the chamber and throat fully formed with only final finish reaming required to establish headspace!

though most H-F blanks are drilled prior to the HF process there is technically no reason why blanks for exotic materials could not be cast hollow or even extruded or formed over a mandrel like "seamless" tubing (avoiding drilling) because the forging process creates it's own grain structure.

Even the barrel shank threading could be cold formed
by "rolling" the threads rather than the inferior method
of cutting them.

Trust me, find a high strength precision aircraft bolt that has cut threads.....

Yet the rifle and barrel manufacturers stick with the older materials that were primarily chosen for their free machining characteristics only necissary to continue using conventional "old fashioned" methods developed in the 16th & 17th century.

They are simply NOT taking advantage of the technique
by using stronger and more durable materials available
that could not be used for making barrels by any other method.

AD

I believe Steyr-Mannlicher manufacture their barrels through some form of hammer forging process - hence the spiral finish on some models.

I saw a kiplauf a few years ago with a spiral finished barrel, I asked the guy about it expecting it to be a Steyr of some sort I had not heard of, it was actually made by a Russian company whose name currently escapes me. It was a very nice little rifle with a very high standard of finish - in 243win.

hammer machines are expensive to buy and set up but pump out barrels at a lower overall cost per.

the most accurate rifles I have owned have been hammer forged.
As far ias i know CZ, Steyr, Blaser, Sako and tikka are all hammer forged.
I belive Ruger are as well.
My experience is that they dont require break in, are very consistant and accurate and clean very easy.

The spr is chrome lined, thus cleans well.

people who think chrome lined rifles do not shoot well should try an spr.

I'll pass on the chrome lined SPR barrels. Our local (county) police SWAT team just sent 10 SPRs back after numerous attempts to get them to shoot. These were 308 Win. rifles. 1.25 inch groups were the absolute best these rifles would do.
On the subject of HF barrels, how many were used to win, or even place in the top 10, at any major competition?

Chrome lined barrels are primarily for service life under extreme conditons, not necessarily for greater accuracy and as mentioned, real life examples exist indicating same. Once the chrome lining "flakes" the ball game is over for accuracy. Have seen some Colt HBAR chrome lined barrels give decent performance and near 10,000 rounds service life, but not stellar performance.
As for matches, there are some hammer forged on the line, but doubt that there are many in the Master/High Master group of shooters, be it XC or LR. Go Krieger (cut rifle) and practice/learn to shoot is the best way for high performance. You WILL see Kriegers in the Master and High Master crowd.

i don't believe that i've ever had a really accurate hammer forged barrel. my best has been cut, followed by broached. hammer forged comes in last by far.

There is acurate and there is acurate.
I have had quite a few hammer forged barrels. A styer .308 witch shot plenty well enough, (damn plastic stock was so ugly I finaly sold it).
I belive my JC higgins model 50 with a chrome lind barrle from High standard is hammer forged. I can't be sure but I think My ruger .257 R witch is just a little over half an inch in diamiter at the muzzle is hammer forged. 2 CZs, a 7X57 and a .243 were both plenty acurate.
I don't think a hunting rifle has to be match accurate to be acurate.
Just as I do think my hunting partner who I have seen hit a running coyote so far away I could hardly see it and be suprised that i was impressed. Is a great shot even though I don't think he has ever been to a rifle range in his life. let alone a match...tj3006

Thomas, you make an interesting point reference hammer forges barrels. I read an article by a custom rifle builder here in the UK a few years ago. His point was that he could generally get a Sako barreled action to do .5" consistently, but he could not get it to do much better no matter what he did.

The Euro makers who use hammer forged barrels generally have great reputations for very accurate hunting guns, but one rarely hears their names mentioned in bench rest or F class competition.

Sauer barrels are hammer forged from Krupps steel. No accuracy problems here.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by KSTEPHENS:
hammer machines are expensive to buy and set up but pump out barrels at a lower overall cost per.

the most accurate rifles I have owned have been hammer forged.
As far ias i know CZ, Steyr, Blaser, Sako and tikka are all hammer forged.
I belive Ruger are as well.
My experience is that they dont require break in, are very consistant and accurate and clean very easy.

If you want a remington without a HF barrel you need to buy a 40X and specifically order it with a Hart or shilen barrel otherwise you will get a HF barrel.

If you want a Ruger with a non-HF barrel you need to have one rebarreled because ALL their barrels are HF.

SFAIK only Savage and Marlin of the volume producers still cut their barrels..

Now with the aquisition of Marlin by Remington I expect to see HF barrls on marlins in 5 years or so...

I don't necissarily consider that a bad thing.

Frankly If I were specifically building a cast bullet rifle I'd insist on a Hammer forged tube.

They are a lot easier to keep from leading up.


AD

Savage and Marlin button rifle, not cut.

That's what many of the custom barrel makers are doing now, too. The biggest reason they're not hammer forging is the cost of the HF equipment. Takes a lot of barrels to pay off the initial investment.

quote:

Originally posted by Claret_Dabbler:
I believe Steyr-Mannlicher manufacture their barrels through some form of hammer forging process - hence the spiral finish on some models.

As I understand it, all HF barrels come out this way, and most have the pattern turned off?

I also wonder if the cut then buttoned then HF accuracy thing is because the premium barrel makers take more time and effort with their method? Also are their barrels usually heavier?

Think the whole system, not just the grooves and lands.

Hammer forging is cheap for big producers and is okay - also "cold hammer forged" sounds really good! Boots obermeyer wrote once that that approach lends to scaling (what appears to be corrosion) in the barrel. They are work-hardened, and so wear pretty well. Basically, though, they are just a way to make many barrels quickly and cheaply. I once read that all of the cut rifling equipment currently in use was made in the 1930's since no one has made anymore since HF equipment was cheaper.

Button rifling works well, but it requires much stress relief. The button is pushed or pulled through a hole bored in a very thick blank. The thickness is necessary to keep the barrel straight through a very stressful process. After the rifling, the barrel can be turned down to a smaller contour, but with lots of stress-relief to keep the barrel from bending under the stress from the buttoning process.

Marlin, at least, still buttons its 22 RF barrels, but doesn't use stress relief any longer. (Marlin chooses its heavier contour from those which had holes bored more accurately centered. Those which weren't so accurate get turned down to a smaller diameter and can therefore be expected to have more retained stress and not be quite as straight on average as their heavier contours.)

The main advantage of cut-rifling is that the process doesn't induce stress and the barrel can be finished to its final contour before rifling begins. And it's kind of neat to have a barel made they way they were 100 years ago

Hammer forged, chrome lined barrels that shoot well do it in spite of being hammer forged and chrome lined, not because of!

Both of my Husqvarna 1900's came with Hammer forged barrels and will keep most good loads under 1 moa without any problem. As with most manufactured items, quality control is the key to performance.

its a quality control issue.
custom cut barrels are very accurate. but if you think for a min that blades dont wear your wrong. and remington, ect is in the biz to make money for thier shareholders.
if keeping the blade in play for another 10-15 barrels means 1 cent per barrel saved thats what they will do.
which is fine unless you are an exeptional shooter who gets a barrel cut on a dull blade.
if your an sub average shooter who gets a barrel cut on fresh blades youll never know the difference.
so big companies play the numbers game.
its a bet.
they are betting that the average purchaser of thier rifle isnt going to be able to shoot well enough to tell a difference between a so-so barrel and a good barrel.
CHF and uniform and consistant. You may have an amazingly accurate remington 700, you may have a dog.
the vast majority of steyr owners say one thing "ACCURATE AS HELL, OUT OF THE BOX"
the average Tikka owner says one thing "ACCURATE AS HELL, OUT OF THE BOX"
Blaser
sig
CZ
so on and so on...

The issue with hammer-forging is that the tooling to make them is so expensive that only larger manufacturers buy them and thier advantage is that they can make lots of barrels quickly more than a smaller number perfectly. Hammer-forged barrels can be made to shoot just as accurately as any other manufacturing method but the larger manufacturers aren't making lots of Target rifles so they don't usually take the extra steps to make a Hammer-forged barrel target quality.
There are a lot of Hammer-forged barrels in compeetition guns but mostly in European styles where people compete with a factory made rifle such as 300m, smallbore and air-rifle etc.. Most of our match rifles are custom built and none of the after-market match barrel suppliers could afford to use hammer-forging equipment, it's just much more economically feasable to cut-rifle or button rifle smaller numbers of barrels.
As far as super-accurate hammer-forged rifles we can buy here check out the Sako TRG 22/42. They don't really fit into any of our typical match gun categories but mine have managed to best quite a few full-blown benchrest rigs in informal matches at our club.
So don't think that hammer-forged barrels won't shoot, you just won't find them on target rifles on this side of the pond.......................DJ