I have a first edition of Keith’s Big Gsme Rifles and Cartridges.

I love the big 35s.

Does anyone know what book or article the Keith No 2 Grizzly Bear story is published in.

I know this happened in 1937. I have seen in reported in secondary sources, but I want to read it from Keith.

Any leads?

It is not in Big Game Rifles and Cartridges.

I shot a brown bear in Magadan few years ago with my 35 whelen. Didn't move an inch at 200 yards.

Shot a brown bear at 30 yards in AK with my .375. It jumped up landed on his feet and was about to take off when he got the 2nd round that knocked him over!

The Whelen is a killer. I have used mine on all sorts of game.



In my Whelen I use the 225 grain Swift A frames exclusively at just over 2500 fps. Its ballistically identical to the old 350 Rigby another famed killer!

Arjun Reddy
Hunters Networks LLC
www.huntersnetworks.com
30 Ivy Hill Road
Brewster, NY 10509
Tel: +1 845 259 3628

That doesn't look like Elmer to me.
I seen to recall that story in Hell, I Was There, but I loaned my copy to a friend and he lost it.
Ex Friend.

Thank you both.

Arjun: What brought to your bill a 35 Whelen?

I imagine Elmer trotted these stories out here and there but l recall him discussing the 35 Whelen in an article in Guns magazine about 1964 or '65 called something like The All-round Rifle.

The magazine had a red cover with at least one ivory-handed Colt SAA on it.

He said he liked the 35 Whelen despite its looping trajectory and told the story of shooting a grizzly with it. He preferred 275-grain bullets and wanted them pushed to at least 2500fps, but I can't recall if he expected that of the Whelen. Maybe his rifle could be loaded that heavily but our Remington 7600 might be a bit hard to open (or become suddenly self-opening), even if its slow twist could stabilise the longer bullets.

That article went through his bitter experience with 'small-bore' rifles etc, of course. It was illustrated with a line drawing of old-time mountain men shooting a ram and a photo of Elmer and his .333 beside a suspended sable.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
That doesn't look like Elmer to me.
I seen to recall that story in Hell, I Was There, but I loaned my copy to a friend and he lost it.
Ex Friend.

I have Elmer's HIWT, will dig it out and check it for you.

Eagle: Thank you kindly if so. I will buy the book.

All feel free to post your 35 Whelen stories.

Elmer relates his Alaskan brown/grizzly bear hunt in his book "Hell I Was There" pages 153 to 163 where he is using a 35 Whelen on a Springfield with 275gr Western Tool & Copper bullets in front of 57.0grs 4064.
He takes a giant 10ft wounded brown bear that stood up in front of him 12ft away. Three shots from the Whelen to finally put it's lights out.
There is a full page photo of Keith with his Whelen and the big bear.

Here is the last 35 Whelen I built; this past September; VZ24 Mauser, FN bolt handle, Leupold one piece base; Douglas barrel, Boyds stock. FDE metal. Of course the stock is a drop in, which makes them quick. It's what the guy wanted. Shoots sub Mao.
A great caliber; 35 Whelen. Elmer was right.

Eagle: Thank you kindly, I will ordered it.

DPCD. That is a different looking 35 Whelen. I am sure it shoot amazing.

Here is mine

https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=100755207

As you might guess from my screen name, the Whelen is my favorite hunting cartridge. I have the A.I. version with 40 degree shoulder built by David Gentry in the mid 1980s. It gives about another 75 fps over the standard, and with the blown out case very little trimming is necessary. I get a measured 2620 at the muzzle with the 250 Nosler Partition, and it gives 375 H&H performance with little more than 30-06 recoil. I've killed animals from 150-900 pounds and never needed a second bullet.

Does anyone know where a primary source citation fir the Leslie Simpson myth comes from?

Keith states Leslie Simpson myth in his Cartridges book specifying the letter was written to Col. Whelen snd 275 grain bullet.

However, in the same paragraph Keith incorrectly identifies Col Whelen as the creator.

All magazine articles do not provide any citation. Even the same mag authors like Layne Simpson tell a different story depending on the article. For example, in one mag article Layne Simpson says Leslie Simpson wanted 250 grain bullets. In another he says it was 275 grain bullets. Then it bounced back and forth with Leslie being in contact with either Col. Whelen or Howe.

I believe this is a myth passed down from Keith that no one can document with primary source.

Col. Whelen in his book The Hunting Rifke never mentions anything to do with Leslie Simpson. I have s first edition.

I shot the Whelen, the35 Whelen IMP, the 338-06 std ad Imp..liked them all, but my first 9.3x62 changed all that and Ive never looked back..

the 9.3x62 is the creme of the crop and I get only 100 to 150 fps less velocity than my old 9.3x64 and can't tell any difference in the 9.3x62 anf the 64 or 375 H&H or Ruger, at least on game, both small or DG....Just my opine based on playing and hunting with them all..

Yes, Ray, the 9.3 is a hell of a calibre but I must say the 35 Whelen is about right for our light pump action. In my dreams I think of it gold inlaid with elk and grizzlies

I have built several 9.3x62s and 35 Whelens. The 35 definitely has the edge, due to the much wider availability of bullet weights for it. Of course they are both equally effective, otherwise. Another salient factor; the 35 brass is free. You know what I mean.

The 9.3 is more powerful than the 35W but so close to the 375 that you may as well get a 375 IMO. Unless you are worried about recoil and carrying around a lighter rifle. And of course the 375 H&H is better than the 9.3.

I’ve stated this before on a different post, but I’ll add my 2-cents here again.

With my 35 Whelens, I’ve taken:

Moose & Elk in NA, and

Leopard, Sable, Sitatunga, Kafue Lechwe, Chobe Bushbuck, Oribi & Warthog in Africa.

I currently own (14) 35 Whelens. Traded or sold a few more. Yes, I too love the 35 Whelen.

I wish the Whelen was legal for DG in Africa, but alas, it is not. So, I must agree with Ray, that if forced to pick between the two, I’d have to choose the 9.3x62 over the Whelen for one medium bore to hunt the world.

Having said that, I’ll always use the Whelen in NA for the big boys, and I’ll also be taking it back to Africa for PG some day!

Thank you Mr. Whelen & Mr. Howe for your invention.

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
The 9.3 is more powerful than the 35W but so close to the 375 that you may as well get a 375 IMO. Unless you are worried about recoil and carrying around a lighter rifle. And of course the 375 H&H is better than the 9.3.

I agree with all said above!

And since carry weight is my huckleberry, I love the 9.3x62 over the 375 H&H. No knock on the 375. I’ve taken (18) animals in Africa with my 375 H&Hs, including Buffalo and Lion. But the 9.3x62 is so close, and the rifles about a pound lighter and slimmer, that I prefer the 9.3 these days. YMMV.

Spot on Surefire, could not have stated my case for choosing the 9,3x62 any better, and thats why I seld my 375 Ruger and H&H in my senior years..

Having shot a lot of African PG and DG, mostly buffalo, I simply never could tell any difference in the 375s and the 9,3x62, even on Tembo by several PHs..I preferred the 286 Nosler partition and the 300 gr. swift bullets, the speer 270 gr., contrary to what Ive read, is too soft a bullet for all but PG..

Guys, we all now the 9.3x62 and 375 HH can take a back seat to the 358 STA. Or the STA dad being the 35 Super Mashburn.

Give me a 280 grain, 358 caliber, at 2500 fps being the 358 Norma, 358 Ackley Improved Short, or 35 Short Masburn Magnum.

The Whelen-Brown can do anything the 9.3x62 can do 300 grain bullet at or about 2200 fps.

The .35 Whelen itself would not be my fist choice for big bears nor Cape Buffalo.

The other bigger case 358s compared to the 375 HH is like comparing the 450 Notto to the other under 500 Nitro. There is no difference other than argument. The reason the less powerful 9.3x62 and equally (slightly less) powerful 375 HH are legal and the bigger case 35s are not is because the folks who wrote the rules were not with this level of performance. The bullet weights are equal 270-310 grains below are equal if not faster, and the energy is the same if not more.

What the .35 Whelen is, is the true All Arounder the 30/06 claims. More bullet weight, more caliber, same trajectory to 500 yards, more energy and momentum. Recoil in an 8 pound rifle is not so much as to be limiting. If you can shoot the 30/06, you can shoot the Whelen. It overwhelms deer size game. Is perfect for elk. The .35 Whelen with good bullets and good shooting can do yoeman work work the 30/06 tops out.

The .35 Whelen with better bullets, better twist, snd powders Carry the mail on par with the .338 to 250 yards.

Eloquently stated, but Im not buying it!! A 220 gr or 200 gr. Nosler partition is as good as any thing the 35 has to offer. The 9.3x62 is the best of the 06 case has to offer..

that said you should write for some sporting rag, you have the talent!

Not compared to a 225-275 grain 35 Whelen. It is just math and more tissue destroyed.

I have to agree with you and do. The 9.3x62 edges the 35 Whelen.

And the 9.3x62 edges all 35s in Africa, if not ballistically, as it is legal for DG in most African countries, whereas the 35s, sadly, are not. And that, is why the 9.3x62 trumps the 35s as an ‘all around medium bore’ to hunt the world.

In America, I prefer the 35 Whelen. In Africa, the 375H&H trumps the 9.3x62, as it is legal in even more places than the 9.3, but at a cost of weight & handiness. Since the 9.3x62 is legal for DG where I hunt in Africa, I prefer it.

It dies not ballistically.

My short barreled 24 inch 358 STA gets 2850 with a 275 grain bullet. That is near 5k foot pounds snd a lot flatter. The 280 grain load is 2700.

The 9.3x62 cannot do that.

It is only legal in Zimbabwe over the 35 Magnums because Dr. Robertson was familiar with the 9.3x62 snd liked it. He was not familiar with 270-310 grain Magnum 35 Cartridges. His second edition of Prefect Shot proves this. He identifies the 9.3 topping out at 320 grain bullets-one supplier. While he limit ms the 35s to 250 grains.

Mozambique has no caliber restrictions.

The 35 magnums might actually meet Zim standards as it is expressed in MM and joules.

That I do not know what the mm minimum actually is. The joules are easy.

The 35 Duoer Mashburn from the 40s can do anything the STA can. The 350 GH and 358 Norma meet 9.3x62 numbers. 280-2400/2500 fps 3,888 foot pounds.

A cartridge I have always wanted to play with is the 9.3x66 or 370 Sako. However, I can duplicate and exceed it with the above cartridges.

Now, is the 400 plus better buff cartridges; probably. Yet, arguing about the 9.3s, 375 HH, Big case 35s is like arguing about the 450-480WR.

This is why I have no use for the 225 class bullets on the Big 35s. I have come to like it forced to bc of availability in the Whelen.

Oh, there’s no doubt that there are 35s with more energy than the 9.3x62. I agree with you. I own a 358 STA.

But if one wants to avoid any potential hassle, African game scouts are much more familiar with 9.3x62 than any 35, and will allow the 9.3 over the 35 caliber. The PHs I’ve used a 35 Whelen with, had never heard of it, let alone the black African scouts. No chance on my 358STA. All of them however, knew the 9.3x62 like we Americans know the 30-06.

I am a 35 caliber enthusiast just like you. We are brothers in this caliber. One day, I’d love to own a 350G&H. And take it to Africa!

You are certainly correct on hassles.

I will one day play with the 9.3x66. It is my favorite of the 9.3s in factory loads/ballistics (well the 9.3x72R).

I am taking the STA deer, elk (cow), and Red Stag hunting this round.

Then I may move to the 358 Norma, or might go all the way down to 270 Win. Just have to see what is on the menu.

I smile big at the thought of you and a 350 G&H in Africa. Now, you got me scheming.

I use to loath the 35s.

Mozambique, especially on those flood plains would be perfect and hassle free for our magnum 35s.

I still think if someone can legally hunt elephant w a bow in Zimbabwe, thst a legal way of hunting buff with one of these big case 35s exists. Thst maybe wishful thinking. Not, that they are perfect for Cape Buffalo. Simply, that they are every bit the Capr Buffalo rifle as the 9.3s/375 HH.

I really like the 9.3x66 as well, ballistically, and I own one made for me from a CZ 9.3x62 by Wayne of American Hunting Rifles. I then bought out all the ammo a gun store guy had advertised on the ‘net in CO Springs, at $25/box!!! There was a mixture of everything Federal made in the caliber; SAF, NP, TSX and BBS. I bought (14) cases of this ammo for around three grand!

I have never hunted with it, but plan to do so in 2024 somewhere in Africa, along with my 404 Jeffery. It might be the perfect medium bore for Africa. YMMV.

Of course, there’s a ‘catch’ to my perfect medium bore for Africa, and that’s lost ammo on the airlines. If I lose my ammo in 9.3x62 or 375 H&H, there’s an even chance my PH will have some in camp. Not so much with my 35 Whelen, 9.3x66, or the 338-06 I will be taking next year…

Again, you are most correct about lost ammo. I had a rifle take an extra day to catch up to me, but the ammo in a locked box in a checked bag arrived on time.

I do not worry too much about it. One does what one must when one has the to. I doubt we would find a lot of older cartridges in Europe or Africa besides the standards 375 HH, 30/06, 7mm Rem, 300 WM, maybe 270 Win, 9.3x62.

There was a very large gun room in Sophia the Capital of Bulgaria. They had everything from 375 HH to 22 Hornet. Nothing over 375 HH. Of course, no 35s.

When we were out in country hunting, I saw the gods had a 30/06. The other a 7mm Rem Mag.

Midway still has 379 Sako for sale. At our local gun show range a guy kept 4 boxes of Federal 370 Sako. I think he finally sold them.

I hope dearly to see that 9.3x66 (my preferred name) get to play in Africa.

I shot my best group of my life yesterday for 5 shots with my STA and 280 grain Swift Aframes.

Congrats on your best group, with 280 gr. in a 358 STA no less! That is my bullet wt. of choice for the 358 STA as well. Similarly, the 275 gr. in my 338WM is my huckleberry as well, but I use the 250 also.

I took my Moose here in CO with the 280 gr. SAF in my 35 Whelen. I like heavy bullets mostly for African hunting in Zim & Zambia, as shots are not too long generally. I used 175 gr. rounds in my 7mm RM in Zambia a few years ago. I now take 430 gr. NF in my 404 Jeffery to Africa, but haven’t used that bullet on game yet. One day…

If you ever get to use your 9.3x66 in Africa, be sure to write it up here!

My pick is the 9.3x62, somewhat based on my chronograph, not the written word, or coffee shop BS..its within 100 fps of the 9.3x64 and thats mighty close to the 9,3x66, all things equal, otherwise I would opt for the 375 Ruger as an all arounder..but it boils down to a matter of choice, there is so little difference in this whole conversation, They all get the job done..

Today in the USA Im back where I started many years ago, with the 270 or 30-06, I have both along with the .308 and 7x57 and the left over 9.3x62..Not counting my 25-35, 250-3000,30-30 Win., Never have been a one gun guru!

Ah, the shame of it, Ray: you've abandoned the 338WM

- SBM (a former one-gun guru)

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Shoots sub Mao.

Luv it

Nope, I just wore my 338 out and moved on!! but still have brass and bullets in case I run into a hot deal on a 338.

the 358 norma is an awesome caliber, and the full equal of a 375 IMO, but in a heavier rifle with considerable more recoil, needs longer barrel etc, although I preferred the 338 as it was close enough and better suited to components in the US. the 35s have not set the world on fire and all you 35 buffs have to agree with that..

Age and muscle tone, lead me to the 9.3x62, lighter rifle, more compact, less recoil even when loaded to the gills..

Most Americans don't know how to load the 9.3x62, Africans have allways loaded a 300 gr. bullet to 2300 to near 2400 fps..

BTW dpcd, componets today are as available for the 9.3x62 as they are for my 30-06 or 270, maybe more so. and brass and bullets are as cheap.

Ok the fun is over, I believe the 30-06 with a 200 gr. Accubond or Partition is the full equal of the 35 Whelen! based mostly on elk and PG kills..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Nope, I just wore my 338 out and moved on!! but still have brass and bullets in case I run into a hot deal on a 338.

the 358 norma is an awesome caliber, and the full equal of a 375 IMO, but in a heavier rifle with considerable more recoil, needs longer barrel etc, although I preferred the 338 as it was close enough and better suited to components in the US. the 35s have not set the world on fire and all you 35 buffs have to agree with that..

Age and muscle tone, lead me to the 9.3x62, lighter rifle, more compact, less recoil even when loaded to the gills..

Most Americans don't know how to load the 9.3x62, Africans have allways loaded a 300 gr. bullet to 2300 to near 2400 fps..

BTW dpcd, componets today are as available for the 9.3x62 as they are for my 30-06 or 270, maybe more so. and brass and bullets are as cheap.

What model was it and how many shots did your .338 take to wear out, Ray?

If the 9.3x62 can be loaded to those ballistics and used in the heat of Africa, it must be an even greater miracle than I thought. I've been getting 2400fps with 286-grain bullets but was considering backing off because the Winchester factory stuff is more than 150fps slower and prints at least two inches lower at 100 yards.

I seem to recall that some of the old loads used in Africa were much milder, too. IIRC, a subload could also be bought for shooting meat, with velocity of about 2000fps.

Mr. Atkinson is not going to like this, but no reloading manual mor ammo maker w pressure testing equipment will load a 9.3x62 feet to 2400. I believe him, and that is fine.

However, Dr. Kevin “Doctari” Robertson, the man who made the 9.3x62 legal in Zimbabwe loads his to 2300 fps in a ZG47 Brno.

Page 79; The Perfect Shot II.

I have read people who claim that velo with a 275 grain bullet 2300 and 2400. I never have, best was 2200 fps.

I have seen folks report 2435 fps w RL 15 and the 35 Whelen and 310 grain. Thus, I am sure someone smarter than me can eke out 2400 and 300 grains with the 9.3x62. Yet, it appears the same person can also do that with a Whelen. There is a .008 difference in caliber. Same bullet weight and same velo.

The cartridges are the same. They both stop where the big 358s begin. The recoil of my STA is no worse than my Whelen. Again, I do not load my Whelen heavy, but no Whelen nor 9.3 62 can throw a 280 grain bullet at 2600-2750 fps.

All that said, even A-Square in the Any Shot You want with pressure tested data shows the 286 lion load at 2400 fps (from a 22 inch barrel) as being over pressure. That was with IMR 3031. CFE 223 was not a powder when that book was published.

RL 15 was, but it was not used in the 9.3x62 section.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Nope, I just wore my 338 out and moved on!! but still have brass and bullets in case I run into a hot deal on a 338.

the 358 norma is an awesome caliber, and the full equal of a 375 IMO, but in a heavier rifle with considerable more recoil, needs longer barrel etc, although I preferred the 338 as it was close enough and better suited to components in the US. the 35s have not set the world on fire and all you 35 buffs have to agree with that..

Age and muscle tone, lead me to the 9.3x62, lighter rifle, more compact, less recoil even when loaded to the gills..

Most Americans don't know how to load the 9.3x62, Africans have allways loaded a 300 gr. bullet to 2300 to near 2400 fps..

BTW dpcd, componets today are as available for the 9.3x62 as they are for my 30-06 or 270, maybe more so. and brass and bullets are as cheap.

What model was it and how many shots did your .338 take to wear out, Ray?

If the 9.3x62 can be loaded to those ballistics and used in the heat of Africa, it must be an even greater miracle than I thought. I've been getting 2400fps with 286-grain bullets but was considering backing off because the Winchester factory stuff is more than 150fps slower and prints at least two inches lower at 100 yards.

I seem to recall that some of the old loads used in Africa were much milder, too. IIRC, a subload could also be bought for shooting meat, with velocity of about 2000fps.

African chronographs read 150-200fps higher than others.
I should know, I live here!

The best powders for 35 Whelen and 9.62 Mauser are Alliant's Power Pro 2000 MR and Reloader 17. In my Whelen AI I get 2620 fps with the 250 Partition, and 2400 fps with Hawk's 275, no pressure signs and 10+ reloads. 24" 14 twist barrel. The 9.62x62 is the same amount larger than the AI as the AI is to the standard Whelen, so should give another 50-75 fps than the above listed loads. I believe a 300 at 2400+ would have to be above 60 kpsi except in a large chambered, long throated rifle.

Has there ever been a 35 Whelen thread in AR that didnt end up being about the 9.3X62?