The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles Am I nuts?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| one of us |
I've been day dreaming about my next rifle. (So work's a little slow this time of year...) I currently shoot an 8mm Rem Mag for deer/elk/moose etc. It's a custom M700 job with a Douglas premium and a HS precision stock. Of course you probably know any bullets need to be hand loaded because factory ammo for this gun is a rare find and is loaded in goofy configurations (at least from my perspective) and the gun is a bit heavy 8+ pounds for my aging body. So this is what I am thinking... I want an Ultra lightweight gun (5.5 pounds or less) but I don't want to lose my power and range so I've been dreaming about an ultra lightweight ( http://www.riflesinc.com/ or http://www.newultralight.com/ or http://www.prairiegunworks.com/id17.htm or http://www.mgarmsinc.com/ ) in .338 Ultra Mag. Two questions for you guys... Will the .338 Ultra Mag make it in the long run or will it go the way of the Dodo bird and the 8mm Mag? For you guys that have shot the .338 Ultra... Am I nuts for thinking .338 Ultra Mag and Ultra lightweight in the same thought? Can this rig be efficiently handled? PS.. I HATE brakes | ||
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Are you nuts... thats a matter for the courts to decide, but like you, I hope the .338 U.M. is here to stay. On a more serious note, your question begs more than one answer. Excluding the .300 and .338, the U.M. family is questionable. More specifically, we already have a rash of super 7s, and .30s. All can be had in tall; short, fat& sassy, or in about any other combination with, or without a belt. All perform well, and unfortunately posess similar performance too. These factors are the biggest detractor I can come up with. Conversely, who wants a mountain rifle with a long action and barrel in a small package, or bean field rifle built on a small platform? With that said, I think they are a bit less rediculous than the super short variety now hyped in the gun rags. Now for the exceptions. The .300 offers performance in a "factory" rig that was unavailable without spending in excess of $1000.00 It bests the Weatherby, leaves the Winchester in its dust, and does so without costing a fortune. The .338 U.M. does the best of all: it beats the Winchester and Weatherby soundly, and threatens the Lapua for far less money. In fact, it beats the Lapua in anything with a barrel 26", or shorter. In short, it fills a niche. I am sure none of this was of any help, but I'm with 'ya all the way when it comes to the .338 Remington U.M. Mine will be a Sendero! | |||
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I'm watching this thread because it sounds like one of the medium bores I want to own. Packrattusnongratus  | |||
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| <9.3x62> |
A 5.5lb (or less) 338 ultra mag? Yes, you are nuts... Good luck.  | ||
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Yup. Certifiable. But if you do it, I'll pull the trigger on it for ya'. A good recoil pad and careful training (working up to full-power loads) and you might actually get to where you can put two on the target fast when you need to. You sure won't be plinking with it. A 5.5# 338-06 maybe. A 338 WSM maybe, maybe. You'll also have a hard time getting down to 5.5# on a magnum action. A rifle taken anywhere far enough that it needs to be that light to carry will find you out of breath and unable to hold still with such a dainty thing once you do get where you're going anyway! But like I said, let me know when you get it done, cause I wanna try it for myself. (Without spending $1k!) | |||
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That's going to leave a mark!!  | |||
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Using loads from this site and the PointBlank recoil calculator: 210gr X bullet & 100gr of RL-22 for 3427fps gives 91ft/lbs at 32fps That seems typical of most of the top recipes listed. OUCH! | |||
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Ultra Light Arms makes rifles lightweight in 375 H & H. Just wondering tho, how much will you sacrafice if you just go with a regular 338 mag instead. If the difference in point blank range, worth the Russian roulette of the Ultra Mag being around and the dramatic increase in recoil? It is your shoulder, your hunt, and your shot on game, so only you can answer that question. However on a trajectory chart in any rifle, chambered for a 338 bore, is the extra fps going to lengthen the trajectory that much? And if it does in a light weight rifle are you going to be able to hold steady enough to be able to accurately take advantage of it. Ponder those questions and you should have the answer that suits you, not what anyone of us give you.... | |||
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Quote: Hey Crosshairs, Taking your questions in the above order: No idea if it will last or not. My "guess" would be that it will be around a long time because of the excellent accuracy I've witnessed from them at the Range. The ones I saw all had the Muzzle Brake and the guys shooting them seemed to be very happy that they did. But, there is no real need to concern yourself about it. Buy 500 new cases (from the same Lot) when you buy the 338RUM Loading Dies. As long as your Chamber and Dies are a reasonably close match, you should be able to totally wear out a barrel(maybe 2) with that many on hand. Concerning the 338RUM in a U-Light - since you mention that you load your own, you can have exactly what you want, at any level of recoil you are able to handle with acceptable accuracy. Absolutely nothing dictates you have to start with WIDE-OPEN, MAX Loads. Begin the reloading at levels equivalent to "minimum 338WinMag Loads" (about like MAX 338-06 loads) and work your way up as you accustom yourself to the handling of the rifle. Your ablity to "efficiently handle" the rifle will be increased as you gain Trigger Time with it. Nice thing about Muzzle Brakes is that a large portion of them are removeable. No doubt they are wonderful while developing a Load, then screw them off, put on the Thread Cap and go on about your business. It would probably be a good idea to have the rifle built with one on it, whether you ever used it or not. If you decide at some point to sell the rifle, your group of "potential buyers" is significantly increased. And if while developing a new Load, a few non-braked shots rattled your brain into alignment, then you could screw the Brake on long enough to finish(and not tell us ).Best of luck to you. | |||
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Hi Crosshairs: I don't have a 338 RUM, but I do have a Mddel 700 300 RUM, with a muzzle break. I WOULD NOT shoot a 338 RUM in a 5.5 lb. rifle with no break. That's 90 some ft lbs of free recoil... You are nuts. I shoot 375's, 416's, 458's, and a 458 Lott. At 230 lbs I can take a shot with a rifle. I shot the 338 RUM in a Model 700, no break.... In a 5.5 rifle....LOL... NO THANKS. Regards... Jim. P. | |||
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| One of Us |
Crosshairs, If you are not nuts now you will be after firing a 5.5 pound 338 Ultra with no brake.  You said you hate brakes so I assume the rifle will be unbraked. Mike | |||
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Hmmm... Why have you settled on 5.5 lbs? How about a light weight 338 win mag, or a light weight 35 whelen? Since you are getting older why not change your hunting style a bit and shoot at the front half of 600 yards instead of the back half? Just curious. | |||
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Yes but why worry about it? To begin with, you will never, never, ever get a 5.5 lb rifle in that caliber with enough barrel to utilize the powder capacity of the 338 RUM. You need at least 28 inches or you end up with at best a 340 Wby or worst a 338 Win Mag; either way with more muzzle blast than energy. If you want a 5.5 lb .338 look hard at realistic velocities and then define the case based upon what you can expect to achieve. | |||
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I know this isn't in the spirit of gun daydreaming, but wouldn't it be more sensible to loose 3 pounds off your waistline than try to whittle that much from such a hard-kicking rifle? | |||
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You guys crack me up... But thanks for your thoughts! And hey... Thanks for the Certification! I guess I'd already drawn that conclusion and just wanted a confirmation! To summarize some of your thoughts... * Yes I'm nuts for putting .338 RUM and ultra light in the same sentence.... but some of you were thinking the same thing... * Sounds like the consensus is the .338 RUM will be around for the long run. Good. * No matter what.. have the rifle built with a brake and decide later to use it or not. * Light weight rifles can be harder to shoot accurately. * Start light and work up to the max loads... Good idea! A couple of points of clarification so you can know what I'm thinking.... * If I wanted a .338-06... that's what I'd get. I've gotten used to the "horsepower" from that 8 mag and I LIKE IT!! Addicted may be more like it. It just flat kills whatever it hits and I mean right now! I believe critters hit with the .338 RUM will behave in a similar manner. There's just something about FAST heavy bullets that is immediately lethal. My 8 seems to kill faster than a .338 Win and I believe the difference is speed. So it's not just point blank range that I'm thinking about.... but I also like more effective range. * My observation is... I carry a rifle a LOT more than I shoot it so I'm thinking I need a gun that carries better. onefunzr2 - You are hurting me man... That was cruel and unusual! Seriously... I don't think it's a 1 for 1 trade off... It's at least 5 and probably 10 to 1... I don't have 15 (and certainly not 30) to lose. | |||
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When we get older the chances of getting injured are much greater. You may have already found that out. Heavy kicking guns can detach your retina like John Wooters or ruin your shoulders like two of my buddies. But go ahead and get one. For myself, however, I plan to get a Kimber 8400 in 270 WSM. Not saying it will hit as hard as a .338 magnelum but at six pounds or so it wont kick me so hard that I miss. www.kimberamerica.com/8400.php | |||
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"Kick so hard that I miss?" I can honestly I've never shot a gun that actually kicked when I was shooting at something alive!! Well except maybe that time that I got knocked out of the tree by the recoil when I was shooting at a Cape buff... MAYBE that gun kicked... | |||
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Hey guy are you just weak or lazy  To start with if your out of breath, you will not be able to hold the gun steady enough for a shot and will probably miss the best trophy of your life. a heavy barrel heavy rifle points and settles like a rock and thats what I am there for to shoot what I am hunting so I carry a proper gun... Surely if this old crippled grey haired man can pack a 10 lb. rifle 10 miles a day then you can, get a life, only a wuss would want a little teensey weensey rifle like that | |||
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I wondered when you were going to "weigh in" Ray. Let's just say I'm a lazy wuss, but also that I am young enough to make a change when I see a better idea!  Seriously I almost NEVER make an off hand shot and when I do it's close so I'm not overly worried about it no matter what I'm shooting. If I wheezing bad enough to miss when I have a rest I doubt it will matter what I'm shooting.... A teensy weensy ultralight or a .50 BMG. Keep your 10 pounder Ray... as for me... I'd rather take the "next" hill. | |||
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Quote: I don't want to get into a pissing match on Christmas eve. Build your rifle and prove us all wrong. It's as simple as that. Remember, your post does pose the question, "Am I nuts?" I don't think it's cruel or unusual to say, "YES." I could see if the weight of the rifle was held out at arm's length, then it wouldn't be a 1 to 1 ratio. But it's held at port arms, balanced on a shoulder, or slung over a shoulder so it is the same. 10 pounds of gun or 10 pounds of fat on your gut...it's all the same weight. And to my way of thinking, 10 pounds less bodyfat is going to do you more good than 3 pounds less rifle. You do what you want. But I'll try to loose a few pounds before I pay hundreds or thousands to buy or modify a rifle that's ultra-light. | |||
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I have owned a 8mm Rem Mag and have fired a under 7# 416 Rem Mag. I did not enjoy shooting the 8mag and when I fired the 416 I looked kinda like that video that Saeed has of the arab shooting the big gun. I am anti brake also and thus I no longer own the 8mag and I don't talk to the fellow that talked me into shooting the .416 I admire my body too much to subject it to that kind of punishment. | |||
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CrossHairs, since I have a lightweight .338Win being built at RiflesInc right now, I dont think I'd call you nuts. I seriously considered a 340WBY, but decided the Win would be enuf recoil - and I dont mind brakes. In fact, I suspect I'm gonna like a brake on this one alot. One thing to consider with the RUM; you may end up with only two down in the magazine in an ultralight rifle. | |||
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Antlers has a good point. I suppose two down is plenty, but three is nice. Also, check the ballistics of the 340 compared to the 8mm Rem; I think they're a bit more on par with one another than 8mm and RUM. I appreciate your desire to find a heavy-hitting 338 that's light enough to carry, I just think you're being a bit too extreme on either or both ends. Maybe a 338 Win in 6.5# loaded and ready? Have it throated for heavy bullets out to 3.6" and you'll be right around 340 Weatherby, and you can shoot factory ammo as well. If you're not worried about over-the-counter ammo, you could choose from some great wildcats around these days, like Tooley's 8x68mm S series. That 338 will about split the difference between the WinMag and RUM and do it in less space than even the WinMag, which is to say, easier to get your three down. Another tac would be going fown in caliber. A high-SD 30-cal will kick alot less than its 338 SD counterpart. Yoou might could handle a 6# 300 Weatherby, for instance, and it'll shoot flatter than your 8mm. What about that, eh? | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
Quote: Why, soitinley it can! By the same masochists who like to shoot the .475 A&M Magnum, the .460 Weatherby, and other sech ilks!! | ||
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I've never understood the need for a 5 lb rifle that you can't hold steadily offhand when a shot is available. I see these guys trim weight off a rifle then carry around a backpack full of shit and 10x56 binoculars, a camp saw on their belt, etc. Something is wrong here. I'll take that 9-10 lb rifle that I can shoot offhand with accuracy and if I need less weight I'll leave a bunch of the other stuff at home. It's kind of like when you're packing in with horses 10 miles, you discover there's a bunch of things you don't need to live. Every time I pack in on horses I need less and less stuff till now I can damn near carry everything I need personally in a small backpack. Build the rifle in a weight proper for the cartridge and put a 26" barrel on it and lighten up the load elsewhere. | |||
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| <JOHAN> |
Quote: Well, it seems like you soon can start useign ponny's instead of regular horses  I know, I have the same opinion. Some persons carry enough stuff to open sporting goods store in the bush. Strange is that manny of the light weight supporters I have meet been carrying around a funny pack under their skin and often smokes I want a rifle that is enough for the caliber and is easy to controll when you have been climbing a hillside rapidly./ JOHAN | ||
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Crosshairs We have just completed our 6th 338 Ultra and had it at the range the other day. We were pushing the 225 Barnes X bullet to 3220 fps with 100 grains of Retumbo (work up slowly). It weighs 8lbs on the nose. My buddy put a Vais brake on it and after shooting it without the brake has no intention of ever taking it off again. This guy has had several 8 poundish 340 Wbys and never had a problem with them but this thing comes back fast. This is the first .338 Ultra that we have seen that really doesn't shoot very consistently at long range. I think that the gun is shooting fine but any discrepancy in hold is spitting shots out of the group. The point of having a cartridge that shoots as flat and accurately as the 338 Ultra does is to be able to hit at long range. Building the gun you are discussing will NOT achieve this objective. Just think about shooting this thing prone! The 338 Ultra uses another 20 grains of powder to push a bullet 25 grains heavier 200 fps faster than your 8 mag is capable of. I don't think you have any idea of what that is like to shoot. Recoil wise the 8 mag is a toy compared to the 338 Ultra. You are not nuts but you will need your head examined (and your eyebrow stitched) after shooting a 5.5 pound 338 Ultra. Jamie | |||
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