Hi Guys,
I need some help making a decision. I'm hoping that people here with experience here can help. I'm about to scope my 300 win Mag. Can't make my mind up about whether to go to a range compensating reticle like Leupolds Boone & crocket or simply plain reticle and just sight in for a maximum point blank range so I don't deviate higher or lower than 4" on line of sight. With a 300 Win Mag it seems so flat shooting that if I sight in 3" high at 100yds I have a 300 yd zero and a slight holdover to connect at 400yds which I would consider at the end of my ability as a hunter anyway. I like the fact you just hold dead on and anything bewteen you and 350yd should be dead meat! Or am I missing something here that I should be looking at with these new reticles offered.
Help...I need experienced advice here.

I have various Burris' with the Ballistic Plex reticle. I bought these 3 FFII's, 2 Sigs, and 1 Euro thinking that I would never have to guess on holdover ever again. It seems though that no matter how much I practice at the range, that practice doesn't seem to make its way to the field. I decided last year to just go with the maximum point blank range on all my rifles. I like not having to stop and think about which hash mark I should be on before I fire.

I've used both, and really like the Burris Ballistic Plex reticle. With a rangefinder, it's tough to beat. Either system will work, it's just what you're more comfortable with. Practice, and it will be tough to go wrong. JMHO

gd

Yeah well, 3" on BIG game might be OK, but it gives me the willies. For one thing, after trying to get minute of angle, you then "induce" an error of 3" before you allow for other inaccuracies, which may or may not accumulate.

Assuming long range may mean more time, I'd personally prefer a simple hold-over type redicule. (But then I'd worry about range estimation)

I like the good old fashioned maximum point blank range way of doing things -especially for hunting. Somewhere around the 500 yard range most common hunting cartridges run out of steam anyway, and without the skill to read wind, you're pissin' in the wind anyway. IMHO most folks would be better off with a mill-dot scope if they learned how to use one, otherwise a plane jane 3X9 would do just as well.

Things seem to happen pretty fast when game is in sight; I don't want to be twirling nobs on my scope. Also knobs not covered by caps have a way of getting turned in the field without the shooter knowing it.

Incorrect range estimation is the number 1 culprit for long-range misses. Accurate range estimation beyond 200 yds gets more difficult. So I would prefer to use the PBR method, whereby I would know how many inches I am above and below the line of sight (LOS). If you choose to stay within a raduis of say 3 inches, you will pretty well know your 'selected capability', and from experience I can tell you it will serve you well in terms of placing the shot where intended. Staying inside the vital zone is the key. This method in essence curtail the inflated opinions that some hunters may have of their long-range ability.

Warrior

2 good points given for "common" hunting ranges and standard plex(s) optics.

1) cartridges running out of steam waaaay down range and

2) MPBR works out very good for common field/hunting situations.

Maximum Point Blank Range is around 250yds in general and is a good standard for optics under "normal" hunting ranges. Tactical/Sniping along with Long Range shooting is another breed all together. I will leave that to the "pros".

I've got a Burris Ballistic Plex on my 270 win. I use this rifle to hunt pronhorn and mulies in Eastern MT and have had shots out to 400 yds. The big problem is range estimation. I have an excellent range finder, HOWEVER; getting a clean range reading is occationally a problem. Eventually, after a few years, and nearly a dozen shots on game at long range I came to the conclution that my old standard of maximum point blank range was the best way to go. I find that if my rifle is sighted in to hit the little one inch square between 2 to 3 inches high at 100 yds the bullets go into the heart lung area if I do my part out to about 300yds. Contrary to internet belief 300 yds is a long way and has covered 90%+ of the shots I've take at pronghorn.(In the last 20 years I've probably killed about 60.) I have found that the next step down on the reticle is good to about 350yds.The next about 435 which is about as far as I care to take a shot under any conditions. I fact I've only shot 4 times at unwounded animals at the 400+ range, two were one shot kills, two were mistakes...

Just a further note: My wife uses a 1x4 scope (plain Plex reticle), mostly set on 2.5x. She once made a perfect shot on a antelope buck at 400yds, kneeling... I've also seen her make clean kills at 200 to 300 yds with the scope set on 4x with no problems. SOOOO, maybe the whole thing is BS...

Now, I also use these scopes on my 223 and 22LR varmint rifles. Fantastic! Especially with the 22 LR, I've made some 150yds kills on gophers with this rig and credit the scope for being a big help. On the 223, it's wonderful for PG hunting since it gives you consitant hold over points so you can walk your shots in at 300 to 500 yds. I would think that the scopes with windage hold points would be even better for varmints.

the vast majority of my hunting and shooting is w/ 308 carbines. my pet load pushes a 165 BTSP at 2550 MV. zero'd 2" @ 100 i am dead on at 185 and 11" at 300 yards.
that means with a standard duplex (WD or #4 preferably) i can hold on the back line and still be clear into the vitals at 300 yards.
i have little buisness calling my self a hunter if i cant close within 300 yards of a deer.

I've messed around with ballistic reticles quite a bit. What I've done is divide my hunting into two categories; the first is varmint hunting for prairie dogs and long range big game hunting for pronghorns. On these rifles I have ballistic reticle scopes and I have calibrated the drops in the field by shooting groups and the aid of a range finder. The second group is for big game hunting elk, deer and bear where the shots are unlikely to be over 250 yards. On these rifles, I have the scopes set up at point blank range. I hope this helps.

Larry

I've always used a 2-7x duplex Leupold on my .270 Win. I've also got the same scope on my .270 WSM. I never could see neither the need nor desire for a lot of superfulous "stuff" in the scope to distract your attention. My .270 Win. is my main rifle and never had a problem with it here in Ak. I've always sighted in at +3" at 100 yds. and I shoot it at 200 & 300 to get the impact. 300 yds. is the farthest we've got. I have been playing with the MPBR idea but I guess old Jack O'Conner was just too influential on me as a dumbass kid to get me to change. The last animal I took with that rifle was a caribou at an estimated 250 -275 yds. 1 Shot from a kneeling position. Not trying to brag here just relate how that method works. I just "knew" I could make that shot. BTW, I do tape a point of impact table to the side of the stock. This is just how I do it - practice instills a lot of confidence. Bear in Fairbanks

It depends upon whether you think you might have a shot longer than the PBR you mentioned of 350 yards. Long range shooting which to me is 300 yards or longer can be difficult. If you can shoot a 4" group at 300 yards considering all the variables such as wind, rifle cant, load variations, altitude, temperature etc. etc., then you are doing well.

Then if you are shooting PBR at 350 yards which would put your bullet at the bottom of the kill zone and you hit one of the variables that throws the bullet lower, then you are out of the kill zone.

To me it is a lot better to have your bullet impact set for 350 yards and if one of the variables hits then you are still in the kill zone.

Also there are those odd yardages that will have you guessing and hesitating and that will sometimes, admittedly rarely, cause you to miss or not take the shot. I have shot at 300 and 400 yards and I can tell you that it is hard to estimate what 12" or 18" holdover is at that distance.

My accuracy at the longer distances has vastly improved since I started using ballistic reticles and having a specific point of aim. Your accuracy at the shorter yardages is just as good or better and will be much better at the longer distances.

The 300 win mag is a very capable long distance shooter. Perhaps I go overboard but I have a Kahles 4x12x52 MultiZero on mine. It has a stop where you set the 100 yard zero and then the top turret has settings which you can set where you want for the longer ranges.

100 yard stop, rotate counterclockwise and it will always stop here


300 yard mark (remember you set this where you want to match your trajectory)


or you can set it in between at any yardage, for instance 430 yards


I also have several internal trajectory scopes such as the Zeiss Conquest 4.5x14x44 with the RapidZ 800 (I found one 6 months ago for only $659.00 ). That is the scope I would recommend to anyone, extremely clear and at an acceptable price.

Anything for hunting deer sized game, I always zero my loads 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, and then chronograph it.. and then look at trajectory charts, so that I know what my point blank range is going to be...

with a 300 Mag, you have a pretty darn flat trajectory, especially zeroed 3.5 inches high at 100 yds...

depending on your game... a 165 grain Sierra HP can be driven easily to 3300 fps in a 26 inch barreled 300 mag... that is one tough bullet, and that is a pretty darn flat trajectory and has 4000 ft/lbs of muzzle energy....

you can substitute a Barnes TSX ( 168 grainers) and you'll have one long range, hard hitting, bad assed rifle there...

you Have to check out these new scopes. With Them you could shoot to 600 yds and be acturate And or you could shoot to 100 yds and be accurate. Its all in what you want to do.

I have a Burris Ballistic Plex. I missed a deer again this year! In the excitement of shooting big game, I don't think I turn the scope to its maximum magnification, then I shoot high. For me, its better to sight in a bit high at 100 and learn my trajectory for deer hunting.

Varmint hunting has been different. With Ballistic Plex and a rangefinder, I have made more long shots than ever, including a crow at 515 and a groundhog at 480. I don't rush or stress over a groundhog, and the extra complication is doable.

I've shot around 30 antelope (mostly does)with a 7MM STW zeroed at 300 yards. With that zero the bullet is within about 3 inches of the line of sight to 350 yards and a dead-on hold is OK for deer or antelope sized animals. It works well. Also, I turned the scope to a power level where the range-finding reticle would bracket an antelope at 400 yards. Anyway, if the antelope appeared much larger than the bracket I could assume it was 350 yards or less and hold dead-on. If it appeared the antelope was 400 yards it was still easy, just aim at the top of the back. If it was much over 400 yards then more thinking was required. I always paced off the antelope after shooting and found the range estimated with the reticle was pretty close to the paced distance. I think a range compensating reticle is only needed if one plans on shooting at over 400 yards much with a flat shooting magnum rifle. I have a scope set up like that for my .338-378 Weatherby and it works very well for shots to over 700 yards. But at the really long ranges, even with that reticle and a laser rangefinder, wind is the challenge. People also modify their scopes so they can adjust the crosshairs for elevation, with the range indicated on the adjustment knob. I think that would work well but not be as fast as a range compensating reticle under hunting conditions. Also, being almost 60 years old I would need reading glasses to see the markings, and they are not needed with the range compensating reticle.

Sight in at 2" high at 100 yards and shoot to 250 yards dead on. It works for me!

I think it depends on what and where you are hunting. If you are in Africa, I'd go for a zero about like vapodog suggest. If you are shooting at significant distances, I would consider a range compensating scope. I just got my first mil dot scope and was surprised at how quickly one figures out how to use them with Kentucky windage. Kudude

If you know your going to shoot at game past 300 to 400 yds, you might consider going with point blank range setup and use a laser range finder. Know your rifle well and practice holding over for shooting at 400 yds plus. I've found that it's one thing to know what the bullet is SUPPOSED to do because of a ballistics chart, but quite another to shoot at those long ranges (the wind has more of an effect than most of us can get into our minds). If you know your going to shoot primarily under 300 yds I feel the PBR reticle is the way to go.

I have brought range compesating reticles in all my scopes for the past 10 years or so maybe longer. I like mil dots but the others work well too.

I find that out to 700 yards with a laser coming up with the right aiming point is easy. Out to 300 they really are not needed past that I have made many a one round hit on pdogs and other small targets with them.

If one is looking to shoot out past 300 they can be a great help. The mill dots work well for me out to 700 the balistic plex type out to 5 and 6 depending on the caliber.

Under 300 a plain out cross hair works just fine.

My flat shooting guns have been PBR 3" high at 100 yards for about 15 years and I love it. My big bores are 2" or so depending on load. Some like a 5" max heighth on the arc but I prefer 4". 5 always seemed too much. A good load with a 300Win 3" high at 100 should be about 24" low at 500. Depending on the bullet thats pretty flat shooting.

Range compensating scopes of all types don't compensate for uphill/downhill/wind effects. I'd rather have a plain reticle or mildot and think about it myself. We shall leave those high dollar Chey-Tacs out of this because computerized sniper rifle/scope combinations aren't hunting rifles for anyone I know.

quote:

Originally posted by fordnutter:
...a range compensating reticle like Leupolds Boone & crocket or simply plain reticle and just sight in for a maximum point blank range ...

Hey fordnutter, Time for a Hunting story about my experience with PBR.

Back when I first heard about the PBR sighting-in from a gun rag, it sounded pretty good to me. So, I set-up one of my rifles in that manner. Took it Hunting and was ready to take off to go get some lunch when a buddy came to where I was. We stook in the woods a few minutes talking and just before we left, one of us noticed a LARGE Trophy Buck had eased out of a set of woods across a disked field.

The Buck stood there flemming and sniffing around, then stared toward another set of woods about 100yds directly ahead of it. It was right at 400yds to the spot where it was standing. I told the young fellow to go on and take it because it would make a nice Trophy for him. He got all ready to shoot and said he had never taken a shot that far So, I told him this was not the time to be "wildly flinging" Bullets.

He knew I could Kill it and stepped back. The Buck took a couple of steps forward and was clear of EVERYTHING. I could see the disappointment in the young fellow's eyes and almost didn't shoot. Finally he said for me to go on and Kill it.

I got all snugged in and shot. The Buck stood there like a Decoy - never even flinched. Shot again and still the Buck gave no indication a shot had been fired. No need to fire anymore, because it was obvious that something was BAD wrong. The Buck slowly eased on across the gap and into the opposite woods. A miss complete and total miss - twice.

The younge fellow could not understand and needless to say, I had no clue as to what had happened. Told him I was going to go look around and I'd join him for lunch later. But he decided to tag along.

Got over to where the Buck had been standing and saw no indication of Blood. Put a stob in the ground where the Buck had been and began looking for any indication of a Bullet impact. We had looked as we approached, so I felt sure the Bullets hadn't hit short. About 65yds beyond, the young fellow found the impacts.

So, off to lunch we go. I still didn't know what had happened and during lunch it dawned on me that I had that rifle set up for PBR. So, when I went into my normal Shooting Mode, I'd simply got aligned just as I always had and ended up shooting over the Buck.

I'd just shot with Iron Sights and lifting the Reticle up at that distance too long, and the habit was ingrained. Beyond there, I'd have reached for the Turrets and should have realized what was going on. Should have realized it anyhow, but once I got in the Shooting Mode, other things were blocked out.

So, that was my "only" first-hand experience with PBR and I went back to what I was used to. Point being "if" you begin using one particular Method for longer distances, I'd recommend you stick with whatever it is. If you like PBR, use it and allow it to become a habit.
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I do like high Power Scopes, Target Turrets and/or Mil-Dot Reticles for l-o-n-g distances. The Mil-Dots are very fast to use. The Target Turrets allow you to adjust the POI so the Horizontal Crosshair is also useful, but it is a bit slower to use. As long as you stay at 400yds and under with the 300WinMag, there is nothing wrong with a HEAVY Duplex once you know where the POI is.

Best of luck to you.

The concern I have with the MPBR concept as commonly described is that it doesn't address increased group size as the ranges lengthen. Assuming you have a honest 1 moa big game rifle (we'll leave off for now that most all of a fella's bragging groups are shot from the bench rather than from improvised field positions) then by the time your bullet reached the maximum ordinate half its group is outside the top edge of "the pipe". At the far end of your MPBR your group is going to be at least three or four inches in diameter, half of which is hanging outside the bottom "the pipe". By the time you shorten the MPBR to accomodate this effect you end up with something like a 200 yard zero and have to learn to hold over anyway.

quote:

I like the fact you just hold dead on and anything bewteen you and 350yd should be dead meat!

an outfitter in Montana put it simply to me: you have a rather large area to put the bullet in- aim about three inches below the spine and behind the shoulder and you'll hit something vital; a little lower, an inch or two, if you're shooting on an angle up or down.

it's worked for me, I had trouble with connecting prior to being told how to do it. he said he runs into this with eastern hunters whose experience is in the dense woods with shorter ranges- says we think too much

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
The concern I have with the MPBR concept as commonly described is that it doesn't address increased group size as the ranges lengthen. Assuming you have a honest 1 moa big game rifle (we'll leave off for now that most all of a fella's bragging groups are shot from the bench rather than from improvised field positions) then by the time your bullet reached the maximum ordinate half its group is outside the top edge of "the pipe". At the far end of your MPBR your group is going to be at least three or four inches in diameter, half of which is hanging outside the bottom "the pipe". By the time you shorten the MPBR to accomodate this effect you end up with something like a 200 yard zero and have to learn to hold over anyway.

quote:

Dang, where's the delete button today?

Hey nordseta, son't delete that post, it is right on the money!

my 243, 270, and 30-06 are all sighted to hit +3" at 100. with the assistance of a range finder, i am good to go out to 300, and i don't shoot past 300. just never saw the need for anything else but then i am a student of jack o'connors' too.

wife and i are taking a month-long vacation this summer - one of our stops will be jacks' new place in lewiston. really looking forward to seeing his rifles, etc. that i read about in my youth.

Ok, so you're sighted in at 3 inches high at 100 yds and everything is ready to go, right? Well, do all the bullets go through the same hole at exactly 3 inches high, every time? Probably not so much...

Frankly, you can over-think this to death and end up paralized by doubt to the extent that you just freeze instead of taking a shot.

The question that is the most important in my experience is how big or small is the target you hope to hit? From experience I've learned that if you can hit a paper plate sized area, that is say 6 or even (God forbid) 8 inches in diameter, of the heart-lung area on any big game animal every time at a given distance with a modern rifle it will die and rather sooner than later.

So, take your favorite rifle sight it in for 2 or 3 inches high at 100yds and then stick up a paper plate at 300. Fire 3 shots from a prone position or sitting or whatever as long as it's not off the bench, do all 3 hit the target area? If so then go hunting. If not move the target to 200yds, if not then 100 yds. it not then, practice a hell of a lot more because it's not the rifle...

quote:

Originally posted by HunterMontana:
So, take your favorite rifle sight it in for 2 or 3 inches high at 100yds and then stick up a paper plate at 300. Fire 3 shots from a prone position or sitting or whatever as long as it's not off the bench, do all 3 hit the target area? If so then go hunting. If not move the target to 200yds, if not then 100 yds. it not then, practice a hell of a lot more because it's not the rifle...

Knowing your rifle and your loadings and having some understanding of contributing drift factors beats the hell out of a high dollar scope with fancy ranging features.

I don't want or need any extra JUNK on my hunting rifle..I sight in 2 to 3 inches high, know my trajectory and that way I can raise the rifle and take the shot...People that fumble around with stuff let the animal run off, seen it happen over and over....

If your a sniper in the military, perhaps this stuff is good..I am not a sniper, I am a hunter..

Thanks for all the experience on the matter. I just went and fitted a Leupold VX2 3-9 scope with a plain duplex reticle after some consideration. Off to the range in a week or two to sight in 2.75" high @ 100yds for an approx 250yd zero with a 150gr load to give a point blank range (+3 to -3" deviation) of around 300yds which is getting to the end of my comfort level of an accurate shot at a game animal. Thanks for all the import. Will be short to post some photo's of the rig soon for those who like takedown rifles.

enough practice at KD and a little note taking and any duplex can be an easy range compensating reticle.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I don't want or need any extra JUNK on my hunting rifle..I sight in 2 to 3 inches high, know my trajectory and that way I can raise the rifle and take the shot...People that fumble around with stuff let the animal run off, seen it happen over and over....

If your a sniper in the military, perhaps this stuff is good..I am not a sniper, I am a hunter..

+1 for what Ray said

80% of the animals I have killed have been inside 250 yards; I have killed 2 at over 350 yards. It's generally been my experience (not always) that I can get within 300 yards of most game animals and I generally won't shoot at an animal that I'm not sure I can kill, due to respect for the animal. Even at 400 yards with a 300 Mag you can hold on the back line (or slightly higher, but not much) with a 180 grain bullet sighted in at +2-3" at 100 yards.

I have a couple of Leupold scopes with the BC reticle (had to try them out), but I normally hunt with a duplex type rectile.

quote:

+1 for what Ray said

+2

The MPBR on any normal hunting rifle is at least 250 or so yards, and the vast majority of game is shot inside of that range, so just sight rifles in about 2" high at 100 and you should legitimately be good to hold dead-on as far as you would normally shoot. If it's a longer distance, just move the crosshairs up and take your shot.

Who the heck has time to fumble with lasers, turrets, or fancy reticles when a trophy is trotting in front of you? It's all I can do to not pee my pants!