The big companies have failed so miserably with new cartridges. Remington fell flat on their face with the SAUMs and Winchester did the same with the WSSMs and in all honesty have had only marginal success with the WSMs and it appears as though Federal is headed south with their 338-08.

But a little company like Hornady brings us the 17 HMR, the 17 Mach, the 450 Marlin, the 480 Ruger, the 204 Ruger, and now the .375 Ruger.

Now, granted all of these new rounds from Hornady have not all set the world afire, none of them have died on the vine either and at least the rimfire 17s have been huge successes and from all the feedback the .375 is going to be a real good seller for them as well. The 204, while not as high on the lists as it might be is also doing quite well in the market.

Why is it that it seems like little companys know their customers and the big guys just don't have a clue?????

Did I hear someone ask for an OPINION? If so here is mine. Hornady is an ammunition company and as such they are in a far better position to see what does and what does not sell then marketing departments of Big Green and a French/Belgium corporate entity. Whether that be on a components basis, or actual ammunition sales. Rimfires have as a rule been mostly for inanimate objects (plinkers) if you will which occasionally are taken to greater tasks. The majority of rimfire shooters have never shot a rimfire magnum. he urban, now suburban sprawl has made "noisy" rifles less desirable, somewhat similiar to the upsurge of the .22 hornet era what seems eons ago. Notice the strong comeback of the hornet as well. Some writers have expoused that it (the hornet) was too fine a cartridge to die. Perhaps, but maybe it just filled a usefull nitch. The .204 while not being my cup of tea is able to provide a clear performance package, and be acceptable to new varmint shooters. A class of shooter which burns barrels out, and therefore needs replacements. A market therefore exists for the .204. As to the big fat blasters my opinion is that they don't offer anything new in the field, only on paper. Reports have seemed to indicate that they do not feed particularly smoothly, and as to accuracy; many of the new hunters/shooters trying them are too new to know what to expect or how to get it. Factory ammunition and stock rifles from mass produced arms companies are not going to deliever sub MOA performance on a regular basis. I have recently seen how some scribes are claiming that such accuracy is unnecessary. Perhaps it is to them, not me. There we have it... An Opinion!



All that na d the pump not even primed! Well !!

I don't know, I see alot of WSM's at the ranges that I frequent.

For the WSSM's, I've only seen one in real life and I agree that they are probably not long for this world.

The 204 is going gangbusters with the varminters.

All the rimfire freaks (me included) have a 17HMR and the 10/22 crowd loves the 17M2 because of the easy barrel swaps.

I see very little interest in the 338 Fed or the 325 WSM.

I think that the 375 appeals to us here because there are a lot more big bore nuts here and on other boards all it will get is a yawn.

These boards are a poor place to judge the general shooting public's level of interest in a particular cartridge because of the select groups that frequent them. I know that the 375 Ruger is going to get a big play here but you won't see it mentioned in tactical.com, benchrest.com, California predator hunters.com, etc.

In the FWIW department, I don't believe they poured much money into the R&D aspects of these new cartridges.
Secondly, I think for the most part these cartridges fall into two distinct groups:
-those that are redundant (223/223WSSM, 270/270WSM, 300Win/300WSM);
-others like the 325WSM and 338 Federal.
Lastly, I believe it was plain ol' corporate greed. Inasmuch as they wanted to sell more guns, I also believe they made an attempt to sew up wildcaters like Jamison.
Just my .02 worth.

.308SAKO: I'll give you my two cents' worth on your comments quoted below--

quote:

As to the big fat blasters my opinion is that they don't offer anything new in the field, only on paper. Reports have seemed to indicate that they do not feed particularly smoothly, and as to accuracy; many of the new hunters/shooters trying them are too new to know what to expect or how to get it.

I've worked up accuracy loads for 3 WSSMs to date. 1-.223 and 2 .243s. All three rifles were Browning A-Bolts and all had feeding problems. Especially if you tried to load long to seat the bullet close to the lands--all three were no-go feeders period until you got the bullet seated deep enough to be at least .060" off the lands, and then they would feed occasionally. Good feeding began at around .080" off the lands. While that isn't a function of the barrel, but of the magazine/feed ramp configuration, nevertheless it is a problem if the rifle prefers a short bullet jump for accuracy.

I got good accuracy (?-1" or less for 3 shots at 100 yds) out of all 3 rifles eventually but the problems with hard chambering (even with F/L resizing), hard bolt lift (with moderate loads), and loose primer pockets after 3-4 firings convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt I wouldn't own one. The only reason I accepted the job on the 2nd .243 is that it belongs to a friend--and he bought it despite the horror stories I told him.

Oh yes, did I mention that their chronograph numbers weren't any better than a .243? Of course, the rifles had 22-24" barrels, and the 2nd .243 was a carbine with a 21" tube.


So, a marketing failure for the WSSMs in my opinion based on very limited experience.

Market saturation and diminishing marginal utility.
How many old standbys do you own and how many new $800 rifles can you buy at one time?

The sporting arms manufacturers need to focus on doing what they do better and focus less on drumming up sales by gambling on something different. Furthermore, who asked anybody what their opinion was and what they might buy? I do not recall anyone producing any polling data compiled by any information agencies on behalf of the arms makers. I guess they interpreted larger sales of short action bolt action to mean the shooting public wanted short actions and faster ballistics. Unfortunately, it looks like such is not the case. I think before anyone else produces any new product, they should thoroughly examine the market to determine if their is room for their new product.

I think the new 375 Hornaday (if this one ever sees the light of day) will have moderate success because everybody is awed by the power of a .375 and will finally be able to afford one in a standard action magnum. I am not sure about the 338 Federal and 325 WSM. I'm sure the WSM will hang one because the WSM's have a following already. But the crystal ball crapped out on me before I could ask about the 338.

great thread. Well thought out replies. roger

FWIW, Over on 24HourCampfire John Barsness stated that the .300 WSM exceeded Winchester's (Olin) initial sales projections by 700%. Thats better than marginal success. He also said the .270 WSM was doing better than projected as well. Since the WSM's have come out the majority of brass that litters my shooting club is .300 WSM... more than .223 and 7.62x39!

quote:

and in all honesty have had only marginal success with the WSMs

That must be quite a rock you've been living under...

These Co's are throwing spaghetti against the wall hoping something will stick. Can't blame them, their survival hangs in the balance with a diminishing consumer base (us baby boomers are the last of the breed sadly).

I have a Winchester Ultimate Shadow in 325wsm.
If I do my part it will group under 1" with factory 180's. I shot a Black Wildebeast and
Red Hartebeast with it Both were one shot kills
at over 300yds. I think recoil is less than 300winny perfomance might be better Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Brad:
[These Co's are throwing spaghetti against the wall hoping something will stick. Can't blame them, their survival hangs in the balance with a diminishing consumer base (us baby boomers are the last of the breed sadly).

A diminishing consumer base is only part of it. Their products have a life span that will allow some of the rifles to be in service after the original purchaser's grandchildren have died. Besides, 90% of the significant cartridge development was finished before WWII. These new cartridges are technically excellent (for the most part) but deliver only limitted or theoretical advantages over existing rounds. Us gun cranks might notice/care about the differences, but no one else will. All most hunter's care is that the animals die quickly when shot in the right place. Rifles have been meeting that criteria for well over a hundred years now.

Dean

Only a few new calibers fills an enpty gap.
One i guess wil hawe a futurt is the hopfull soon comming 375 Hornady/Ruger, Because it gives a real chance of making alot of medium magnums into biggame riffles.
For many of the calibers invented by especialy Remmington and Winchester, you might look at it as a way of marketing and getting articles for a product, that has been almost static and with no real improwment for the last 50-60 years.
My personal guess is that it must be a hell of a job to get a jurnalist to write a new article about the same Remmington 700 year after year. So woopty you invent another "New" caliber wich you expect to die within few years, but you get alot of free marketing strenghtening your "brand". As a bonus you might even sell a few rifles in that "fantastic" caliber.

To be wery tough on american Riflemanufactures, there has ben no real development for the last 50 years, only cosmetics.
If you look to Europe there is a whole bunch of new constructions and designs (like them or not) and from my knowledge many european manufactures are actualy making good money on there production, despite mutch higher laburcosts, than there american colegues.
Just thinking it might be because they are trying to improve there desighns, instead og just jumping the lowest part of the fence, and introducing another fantastic(alredy excisting) miraclecaliber

It would be my guess that Hornady/Ruger probably have a higher percentage of employees that are actual end users of their products than the big companies.

If I didn't have a 22-250, the 204 would've gotten a serious look from from me.

-Bought a 17 HMR what a blast.
-17 mach 2... I have a gun cabinet full of 22's.
-The 450 Marlin, not my interest.
-480 Ruger, Own a couple of 44 mags and they will do anything I ask.
-375 Ruger, great idea. Right down the center of the lane. I feel this is just a continuation of the short mags. A round that is as powerful as the magnum H&H but in a shorter, fatter cartridge that can be put in a handier rifle. My opinion, this will be a success.

- WSSM's abysmal idea.
- WSM's and SAUM's are good ideas. They all do pretty much as advertised.
-270 WSM actually an improvement over the standard. Working on buying one right now, and I am a huge 270 Win fan.
-300WSM/300 SAUM is right in between the 06 & WM, pretty good company. I own a 300WSM. The scary thing is. I really don't need anything else for the hunting I do.
-325 WSM a great medium bore cartridge. Fills a niche between the 338WM and -06. Pretty good company again. I personally chose the 338-06 a number of years ago. But if the 325 had been available then? Who knows what I might have chosen.

-7mm SAUM is the ballistic equivalent of the 280 improved. Without all the hassle. What's wrong with that. I still haven't figured out why it isn't doing better.

I can honestly say that would never talk anyone out of WSM or SAUM. But I wouldn't talk them out of the standard either. In the end it all comes down to personal preference.

So new hunters and shooters have more choices than ever before. What's wrong with that?

Small companys (like Ruger) are runned by dedicated people, large ones (like Winchester) hires educated people who does not know back and front on a rifle. Real small companys are to dedicated, they "have a dream" but no reality. (like Dakota)

I think Ruger and Hornady found a couple of holes in the line up, if you will. Whereas Remington and Winchester came up with the same stuff in a different package, that is only going to attract a few shooters (like myself with the 7mmSAUM).
I will be very suprised if the 375 Ruger goes anywhere. The H&H is by far the king of the hill. Regardless of what the "new" 375 does, it will take an act of God to make the majority of H&H shooters to give it up.

The WSMs are some of the most popular cartridges on the Market it seems. I agree the others have failed but, the WSMs have quite a following. They're much more popular than the new 17s around here.

None of the new carts were needed IMO because none of them do anything better than the time proven carts we've had for years.

Good Luck

Reloader

quote:

The H&H is by far the king of the hill. Regardless of what the "new" 375 does, it will take an act of God to make the majority of H&H shooters to give it up.

I agree. Not a single soul will drop their H&H to take up the 375 Ruger round.

That said, I'd believe that in ten years there will be more .375 Rugers in the field than the H&H solely based on a lot of custom rifles converted from such things as 338 win etc.

As to why Hornady/Ruger can find holes in the lineup and the big guys can't, Id think it's simply that they're closer to the customer than the big guys that sit behind desks.

Remington was successful for a time when it followed the wildcatters and bought us the 22-250 and 25-06 the 35 whelen and the 17 Rem. Since then they seem to have looked elsewhere.

I think smaller companies are naturally closer to the customer as they must be to stay in business.

quote:

I'd believe that in ten years there will be more .375 Rugers in the field than the H&H solely based on a lot of custom rifles converted from such things as 338 win etc.

I don't believe that one bit. There might be even more 338 Win mag fans than 375 H&H fans.

I'm a die-hard Big Green fan but I think they've focused too much on trying to out-do/counter Winchester in the market. I'm still amazed that the WSSM stuff ever got off the ground. I mean, how much of a marketing gimmic is, "It does exactly what the big round does, but does it in a short action!" Look at specifications, generally speaking, short actions don't weigh much less than long actions. I had really big hopes for the Remington Classic series as a test bed for legitimizing wildcat cartridges, this after they brought out the 35 Whelen ... there I go thinking again. After looking in my gun safe, I find my tastes have gone back in time instead of forward. My favorites include two 7x57 mausers, a 6.5x55 mauser, a .348, a .358, a .222 and my latest, a 308 Norma Mag. I guess I have a soft spot for mature ladies.

I see one of the problems with the big companies is they have to sell a tremendous number of guns and ammos to break even on new offerings. They know there market is saturated, so new offerings are what they figure will stir up a buzz and sell lots of guns. The reality is, buzz will only sell so much in a market that doesn't have built in obsolessance. It's not like autos where a bit better mileage and comfort will atract folks to trade in the old clunker.

The reason the small companies can do well is they can be profitable in a niche market. The 375 and up market is a niche, and look at the 458 lott that is doing well despite the 458 win mag having already filled the niche and being pretty much disontinued by the majors.

The 375 Ruger will do well, not so much as a better 375 H&H, but in an American made controlled round feed 375. Winchesters M70 demise will have more to do IMHO with the 375 Rugers success than anything else.

Any new cartridge gets a big enthusiastic outburst of apathy from me. The niches were all filled 40 years ago. The new ones are all "Me, too."

Most of the shooters in this country are baby boomers who aren't into golf. We don't need all the new golf clubs that come out every year, but they surely do sell a lot of them.

I think this cartridge will be an affordable DGR entry cartridge.

That is a good thing for us. Most of us know what happens when you get bitten by the DGR bug.

Eventually you have someone make you a 404J on your way to a double rifle.

The wider shoulder area may make it a trifle techy for converting a standard mauser magazine box. The newer US made actions with their window mag boxes will be a snap though.

All this talk makes me want to make a 375 Taylor to add to my 416 Taylor, 338 Win Mag, 300 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag, 7mm Weatherby and soon to be 270 Weatherby.

LD

LD

I think that anything a gun company can do to generate interest in the shooting sports and to generate gun sales is a win win for everyone involved.

If a new guy coming into the sport gets excited about owning one of the new calibers bully for him. If the increased sales of new caliber guns/ammunition can keep an arms company's doors open and boost their bottom line I likewise cheer.

What a dull and dreary place this sport would be if all we could discuss were our 30-06's and 7x57s and 300 H&Hs... In truth not much has been invented in the way of high power rifle cartidges since about the 1930's.

I say congrats to the industry for coming out with innovative concepts and taking the financial risk involved with developing new product lines.

To those of you who think you've had all the bases covered for three decades and the new cartridges and guns aren't any better. You'll only be ablt to make that claim for so long before people with experience using the new stuff can point out you don't know what you are talking about!