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...PITA, why wouldn't I just use flitz to "break in" the the throat Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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The gunsmith who built my custom rifles used J-B Custom Bore Cleaner to break in my rifles. He put a patch over a bore brush and the J-B on the patch. The rifle required no other break in and are all sub 1/2 MOA shooters. | |||
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JB is a vegetable paste not sure how its going "break-in" a throat. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I've never studied the chemistry of JB's, but it does have abrasives, and it does work extremely well to get bore clean and shiny down to bare metal. I personally find barrel break in to be a colossal waste of time and bullets. | |||
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Mike, You are correct that Flitz is really all the break in you need, because the only thing that can really be improved is the quality of the throat. On the Army Rifle Team I "broke in" way to many barrels and I am convinced its a bunch of hog wash. I don't care what any of the custom barrel makers say. They don't even agree how it should be done. I will say though, that looking at a throat after JB vs. Flitz with a bore scope, there is noticeably more random scratching with JB than with Flitz. If you have some serious carbon fowling, start with JB and finish with Flitz. | |||
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Thanks! Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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You can scrub a barrel with Flitz or JB until the cows come home and you won't remove .0001 of barrel ID Neither are for lapping ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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This business of barrel break in, is mostly fun and games, I used to do it but with todays barrels I can't see where anything is gained over just taking the gun out and shooting it..All my guns shoot 1/2 inch groups for 3 shots and most for 5 shots..Same as the broke in barrels....Maybe something is gained for target shooting, but for hunting I see no need. Ive tried it both ways with Lothar walthar barrels, but they come out of the box smooth as can be.. Aparantly Im the minority on this subject, but I can live with that. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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It’s amazing how there is no consensus on barrel cleaning ect. Tells me to a large degree we are in a world of beliefs not science. Mike | |||
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A few years back, I started to just clean a barrel very well with Wipeout.Then I really wet the bore with EezOx and let sit overnight, muzzle down. Next day I run a Bore snake through it a couple times. At the range, I would shoot one, and run a wet patch of EezOx, then a boresnake. Do that a few times, and good to go. Its about like "seasoning" an iron skillet,or a black powder rifles bore, ha. | |||
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I suspect much of this has to do with the individuality of the barrels. I know I have slightly different methods and vastly different duration depending on the gun. They're all so individual that it's folly for me to lump them all together. Zeke | |||
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I think this is indicative of the times. Not too hard to believe that so many want to condemn the proven successful techniques used by others with their rifles. This is exactly why I generally refrain from sharing any personal knowledge with the members of AR. Even the so called “experts” on this forum can’t agree. | |||
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This is not curing cancer or something super complex. Manufactures of barrels and guns should have some idea what is required or desired to clean a barrel. I have heard little from manufactures. The military should have s standard procedure for barrel maintainability across smalls arms. I just don’t over clean them cause I think poor cleaning can destroy more barrels than use. I also follow a simple rule of keeping everything only brass, copper, carbon fiber or cloth that goes in steel barrels to not damage anything. Mike | |||
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Why do complex internal combustion engines and even more complex jet engines have defined cleaning and maintenance protocols but simple steel tubes with rifling have this complex secret protocol that varies by user ? Mike | |||
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I don't 'get' the throat break in deal. Only ever had one issue with a throat on a K95 Blaser where the throat clamped onto the bullet once during some light snow. Turned out that there was some fine carbon blowback there. Figured it was very tight to start with and didn't leave much space for carbon especially with frozen snow affecting the diameter minutely. Polishing it with 000 steel wool wrapped around a bore specific brush and Hoppe's #7 solved that tight throat issue with only 20 or so revolutions of the cleaning brush. Throats & rifling on used guns I've owned need that same process due to neglect of not only the throat, but the rifling. For new barrels, a good bore scope should tell you if it needs any scrubbing to get rid of any sharp edges, unwanted grooves or trapped metal particles. Shooting them out (a.k.a. barrel break-in) is the slow & expensive way in my opinion. Plus, the bullets only go in one direction. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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I agree with Mr. Atkinson. | |||
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I certainly don't worry about it that much anymore. I "clean/do maintenance" with Wipeout/EezOx so its just same same for me. | |||
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Because clueless dumbasses like you need help. | |||
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Here is a link to a good article on barrel brake in and cleaning. https://www.brownells.com/aspx...etail.aspx?lid=13001
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Mike[/QUOTE] I think this is indicative of the times. Not too hard to believe that so many want to condemn the proven successful techniques used by others with their rifles. This is exactly why I generally refrain from sharing any personal knowledge with the members of AR. Even the so called “experts” on this forum can’t agree.[/QUOTE] Don't go and confuse them! They have their own minds and they're made up already. Like I said before, it's hard to throw a single blanket over this whole discussion since barrels vary so much. Some take little and some take lots of both cleaning and break-in. But what the hey, this is the USA where we can do as we please...and for you guys who always tout 1/2" groups at 100 yards with EVERY rifle you own, BULL SHIT. (the internet is a wonderful thing and makes excellent shooting rifles of everything we touch especially for those who don't shoot so much) Zeke | |||
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I doubt there is anyone on this or any other forum who has accomplished a comprehensive analysis with a representative number of sample rifles/barrels to prove or disprove the entire concept of barrel break in as it pertains to cleaning and or copper fouling. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Just FYI, my post is not about barrel break in but actually about throat "burnishing" if that is the proper term. Preventing excessive copper build up in the throat that later on can be difficult to get out. Mike Legistine actu? Quid scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike, what harm has this copper build up caused? My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I found and over many barrels, that match grade button rifles stainless do better with a clean with Sweets and clean that out with Hoppes and dry and shoot again. A maybe 4 or 5 "one shot and clean" shots then a few 3 shots and Sweets etc. If you shot the new barrel and did not clean as above then groups would start to open after a few shots. If the barrel was a really good barrel the groups would just open but if the barrel wad a bit less than spot on the point if impact would change a little bit. With chrome moly factory barrel I have found it is best to leave the copper there and I have not used any form of copper remover. If a Chrome Moly factory barrel was shooting well and then copper removed with something like Sweets then accuracy went off until copper built back up. My theory is with the match grade button rifle stainless the copper sits on top of the barrel, sort of like sand paper clogged with paint. However, I think the factory chrome moly is more like sand paper that has only sanded wood and the wood is not sitting on top of the paper. | |||
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Come on Raider, tell him what you really think! | |||
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tough crowd this week. I just don't get the barrel hot by shooting too many bullets in a row. 1-2 then cool. then 2-3 then cool. just enough to get the scope dialed around where I want it. put a couple down there to confirm. then shoot for group on another day. I have gone as high as 500 rounds before cleaning. other than the initial patch out of the box they seen nothing but bullets down the barrel. throat wear is all about heat and pressure, keep them minimal until things find their groove. | |||
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Answer me this, How in the hell do you know if barrel break in works. I have shot barrels that I broke in according to posts, some shot and other did not... You have a new barrel you break it in and it shoots great so you belive that's the ticket, but in fact you have no way of knowing it would have shot as well without the break in period.. Ive shot many rifles that had no break in that shot great, had I broke them in "properly" would they have shot better, I don't see how.. I don't bother anymore, a good barrel will shoot and a bad barrel will not, end of story. I know that most barrels pick up some accuracy after about 200 or so rounds.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Zeke! You mean to tell us that "you don't" get 1/2" from out of the box rifles every time? You must not be buying Savage or Remington's!  A couple days ago I cleaned my new, haven't sot it yet, Mesa 300WM, to get it ready for zeroing. I "added" a step. I first used Montana Extreme Bore Polish ( because I had some), then WipeOut, then EezOx. Good to go. I will zero/get some fire formed brass to set my dies with the Federal 150 Blue Box and clean every 20 yds or so with a Bore snake. I "really think" more rifles are "cleaned out than shot out"! | |||
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I still don't know how to "edit" here...I meant "every 20 rounds"...not yards, ha. | |||
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On ma match grade button rifles stainless the group will start to open in 4 maybe 6 or 7 shots. If them clean the copper off it then it might go another 6 or 7 shots and so on. But if the one clean (and with a copper remover like Sweets) is done for a few shots and a 2 shot clean and so on for maybe 15 to 20 shots, the rifle then group for many shots, maybe 30 before a clean. Chrome moly factory barrel best to start shooting and leave copper there and at clean time only remove powder fouling. | |||
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Just cruise over to the latest discussion of OSR that has once again popped up in the Double Rifle section if you want to see evidence of beliefs and not science.  | |||
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"Proven techniques" that you refuse to discuss. Why do I find that a little too convenient? Not even the bench rest crowd agrees on a single "proven method". Keep your bloody barrel brush at home. I would be willing to bet that more barrels are damaged by over brushing and improper "break in" then by shooting a powder fouled bore. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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I think part of it is that we are being fooled by randomness. | |||
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I get around it by never having had a brand new rifle. | |||
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no animal has ever been shot with a clean barrel. Ive gone both ways over the last 70 years ( a guess ) and got tired of all the over thinking and BS...Today I use premium barrels and clean with a bore snake..nothing has changed one way or the other in my lifetime of shooting..If you like cleaning bores be my guest, if you don't it won't change your life one iota unless your a bench rest competition shooter, and I know some of those guys that will buy 10 to 20 barrels before they get the right one and then refuse to touch the bore.. Right or wrong, who knows, but its a over thought series of posts, mostly from reading too much, shooting too little, and too much guess and by gosh, and none of actually knows the answer, and never will.    Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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