The 256 Mannilicher=6.5 Mannilicher, 275Rigby=7x57, 10.75=404 Rimless NE=404 Jeffrey, were three popular/good cartridges with dual names. The 30H&H, 375H&H, 318WR and the 9.3x62, seem to have avoided this. We're they not popular across the Channel respectively, or did they have dual names. Anyone have any ideas? The only thing I can think is that the first three were propriety and patented? Thanks captdavid

300h&h = 30 super

The 6,5 is original (austrian) called 6,5x54 Mannlich-Schönauer, the 7x57 is of german (mauser) origin and the .404 is of british origin, while german rifles with this caliber often are labeled with 10,75x73

.318 Rimless Nitro Express
9mm Nimrod

Was the 30 Super a rimmed 300 H&H..I ask because years ago I had one in a double rifle, and Im thinking it was rimmed, maybe not this 82 year old gray matter works in funny ways these days..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Was the 30 Super a rimmed 300 H&H..I ask because years ago I had one in a double rifle, and Im thinking it was rimmed, maybe not this 82 year old gray matter works in funny ways these days..

Ray, according to the only reference to the .30 Super I can find, it was just Winchester's name for the .300 H&H with belted case. IIRC though the headstamp still had H&H Magnum spelled out on it. The Super was at the top of the circle and referenced their line of Super-X cartridges.

Good pictures here. http://www.municion.org/300Hh/300Hh.htm

Well in the case of the .256 and the .275 the Brits used the land diameter rather than the groove diameter the rest of the world used.

quote:

Originally posted by drhall762:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Was the 30 Super a rimmed 300 H&H..I ask because years ago I had one in a double rifle, and Im thinking it was rimmed, maybe not this 82 year old gray matter works in funny ways these days..

Ray, according to the only reference to the .30 Super I can find, it was just Winchester's name for the .300 H&H with belted case. IIRC though the headstamp still had H&H Magnum spelled out on it. The Super was at the top of the circle and referenced their line of Super-X cartridges.

Good pictures here. http://www.municion.org/300Hh/300Hh.htm

Hollands first advertisements and catalogs in the 1920's called it Holland's New "Super-Thirty"

In Sweden commercial or popular name are 375H&H ,in the gun certificate its 9,5*72br.

The imperial naming of cartridges is very imprecise and misleading for a number of reasons.

The main reason being that they simply referred to cartridges by bore and then further confuse by adding own brand names so that two companies would have the very same cartridge but carry the same bore but different brand name. They would then also add lengths such as 2 inch 3 inch or 3 1'4 inch etc or numbers such as their number two versions etc

Further this they did the same to metrics by converting them to imperial bore size without defining what metric is was. The list of for instance 6.5mm metrics is extensive and in this lies the problem.

If you say 6.5 here everybody assumes the 6.5x45 MS but that is a error because there was a slew of 6.5's for MS rifles adopted by english gunmakers bearing English gunmakers stamps that were not the 6.5x54 but the "other" MS calibers. Here one has to specify is it for the Greek rifle or the Dutch rifle or Hungarian rifle.

Some makers like C&H for instance sold guns in 250 bore , 280 bore 370 bore etc or then sold a 375 bore witch was in fact a 9.5 MS, very different from the 375 H&H.

Then add to it that even the British gunmakers didn't adhere to the norm.
318Wr - .330" bullet
360s mostly had a .366" bullet but Purdey was .368" iirc.
Then, 369 Purdey - .375" bullet
Then, the 375 H&H has a .375" bullet
404 Jeffery - .423" bullet (404 denotes 40cal 4 shot rifle)
500 Jeffery - .510" bullet but the 505 Gibbs has a .505" bullet
And the 416 Rigby has a .416" bullet.

Why Rigby or Jeffery didn't just go with the bullet of the 450/400 is a mystery to me but my guess is there was some marketing spin at work there.

Confusing, yeah?

Huvius:
Not marketing spin, ballistics modelling !
Unlike modern wildcatters who take a existing case and see how many times they can alter it without even giving thought to the physics behind pressure and performance the old timers actually did the math on each creation.

For the most the originals were not accidental creations!

On researching the old cartridges we see that they actually applied ballistics science to their choices to come up with cartridges and caliber and bullet weight combinations and most of the originals were actually engineered and were collaborations by the gun makers and propellant engineers.

For the record, nobody has adhered to a "norm" when naming cartridges, not even individual companies. Cartridges were named for bore diameter; for an approximate average of bore and groove diameters; for groove (bullet) diameter; or for marketing reasons (which may also have applied to the choice of one of the preceding categories).

In the above order, Winchester and Weatherby provide American examples: .270 Win. and .270 Wby.Mag.; .220 Swift. and .240 Wby.Mag.; .358 Win. and .224 Wby.; .225 Win. and .460 Wby.Mag.

British examples are: .275 H&H Magnum; .240 H&H Apex; .375 H&H Magnum; .404 Jeffery.

The Europeans appear to have avoided caliber designations for marketing reasons, but they are represented in the other 3 categories, examples being: 6.5mm and 7mm cartridges; .280 Halger (a .280 Ross case loaded with a 7mm bullet) and 9x57 Mauser (my Oberndorf Type C mikes 8.9mm bore and 9.1mm groove diameters); most medium and large medium bore cartridges from 9.3mm to 11.2mm.

Cheers, Al

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Was the 30 Super a rimmed 300 H&H..I ask because years ago I had one in a double rifle, and Im thinking it was rimmed, maybe not this 82 year old gray matter works in funny ways these days..

Ray, I believe there was a "flanged" version of the 300 H & H also, like the 375 H&H Flanged. Could be wrong, will try and find some definite info.

Ray,

Here you go...glad to find that I was not just blowing hot air...

http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/300%20flanged.html

The .300 H&H Flanged, also known as the Super 30 Magnum, was designed for use in double rifles.

There, everyone got that? Clear as mud?

The 300 H&H and the 30 Super are dimensionally not the same cartridge !

H&H originally called it Hollands super 30 and not 300 H&H

I suspect the difference arose when Winchester chambered for it in their pre 64 and olin
( Western) started making ammo for the Winchester.

The original was the Super 30 and the dimensions were submitted for proofing and this dimension is still upheld by CIP as the 30 Super.

CIP have the two cartridges as separate entities

The later 300H&H has a different dimension and was loaded to a higher pressure spec than the original Super 30.

A super 30 will chamber in a 300 H&H but not the other way around as the shoulder dimension is different albeit small.

I remember mentioning that .30 Super and .300 H&H Magnum were different cartridges a good while back when one of the AR members was insisting the .300 H&H he was having made up be marked as 30 Super. Blinded by a false sense of nostalgia, he didn't care and had it so marked anyway.

Additional notes on the 30 Super:

The title "Super Thirty " was a H&H Brand name and went into use in 1925.

Unlike a Trade Mark which was registered and was valid for 14 years ( renewable) brand names carried little to no legal protection.

Western in the USA marketed the "Super thirty" as the 375 H&H in the same year.

What is interesting though is that the first H&H rifle recorded in the H&H numbers ledger only appears in 1926 ?

The americans just have to make up names - the 6.5x55 is a good example. Named the 6.5x55 by its norwegian and swedish inventors the cartridge was promptly named "swedish" by the US ammo-companies.

For a good while we were seeing a lot of ex-military arms imported. So, to reduce confusion ammunition was advertised as 6.5 Swedish, 6.5 Italian Carcano, 6.5 Greek, 6.5 Japanese, 7.5 Swiss, 7.62 Russian, 8mm French Lebel, etc. The same cartridge was sometimes even referred to by different names depending on the availability of the particular import rifle. So, for example, we saw 7.65 Belgian, 7.65 Turkish, and 7.65 Argentine for 7.65x53mm. Ammunition was sold using those different labels and people still refer to the cartridges by all the various names.