I was just reading in the latest shooting times about that .338-08. I am suprised at how angry I got while reading that article. It's nothing the author wrote but just the subject as a whole. I have no great (perhaps a bit of anymosity) hatred for the .308 case. The .308 case is best served with smaller bullets at lighter weights. Even then it is a lackluster performer in every application. The .260 was a good idea but beat out by the swede. The 7-08 was a good idea but beat out by the 7x57 mauser. That .243 was ok but again the 6mm beats it hands down. The same would happen when up against the .257 roberts. That .308 case can't even compete in the .22 market. Have you noticed how popular the .358 win has become. To me the .308 case is too small for any useful purpose beyond a childs or womans gun. It's a case of trying to reinvent the wheel with a smaller, slower, less effective wheel. Ok, I guess maybe I do have great hate for the .308 case. Now let's talk about the .338-06! That's one hell of a round!

While I share your enthusiasim for the .338-06, I think you are being a bit rough on the little 08 case. True, the other carts. you mention are slightly better performers but do it in cases that now need a std. action to fit in. Might as well have a .280 v 7x57 or a .25-06 v .257rob.
The 08 cases do give you a true short action capable round for those that think a short action is the end all to be all. I like the idea of the .338-08. Thoughts of a M7 w/ a 22"bbl. coming in just under 7# appeals to me. It would be a great woods round w/ better usable SD than the .358win. Yes, a 210grNP @ 2600fps is not a bad idea.

Based on your same logic of other cartridges beating out the 308...wouldn't the 06 seem to be a little behind as well? I own neither a 308 nor an 06 but you really can't argue with a cartridge that has been that effective for that long.

Woman and children's gun...hmmm...true...but I am all for a caliber that makes our sport more accessable. Some of the fondest memories I have in the field are with my family...so IMHO God Bless the 308.

It's ok not to like this or that cartridge. I don't get worked up over them much unless the cartridge is a problem to handload or hard to find stuff for.

The bottom line is that the 243, 7mm-08 and 308 are among the most popular centerfire cartridges. For ranges under 300 yds those cartridges are just fine. In some regions there is little shooting over 150 yds by the way.

Another thing is that the 243 is a hammer as a varmint round. You can say you don't like that case but its the big hammer on pests at any range.

The 338 Federal is going to sell some rifles and be a favorite of some. Thats why they are making it.

I find new cartridges interesting.

I think that in a 7 pound all up with a small scope that it would be very usefull for a LOT of situations.

The .30-06 is hands down my favorite cartridge. However, if they all suddenly disaapered, I could easily get by with the .308.

Same could be said for the 338-06 vs .338-06. I prefer the later but in the right gun the .338-08 would be nice. Of course, realistically, the .338 WM is the better choice. Luckily, I've never been accused of making the right choice.

Oddball you could go to the 338 win mag or some 35 gollywhopper but since I'm old and like less recoil I choose the smaller calibers.243 308 and 358 are my favorites,yea I do have a 35 whelen,338 win mag and a couple 300 win mags as well as 300wsm but often when I don't want the fillings to come out of my teeth I shoot the smaller calibers,just an old mans opinion.Drop-Shot

well oddball you sure laid the tacks on the carpet about the 308. don't know why, but everyone has a right to their opinion. from your frame of mind, i would say you do not want to even look at the 308, am i correct?

quote:

Originally posted by Savage99:
The 338 Federal is going to sell some rifles and be a favorite of some. Thats why they are making it. I find new cartridges interesting.me too.

It is new and different but fills no voids.It'll give some the opportunity to buy something over the counter they don't have.

Short term marketing plan.Not worth being stressed out over.

The idea that the case capacity of the 308 family is too small comes as somewhat a surprise. I may think that they are of poor cartridge design [ short neck, short action, short throat ] but over the years they are not really short on performance. roger

quote:

To me the .308 case is too small for any useful purpose beyond a childs or womans gun. It's a case of trying to reinvent the wheel with a smaller, slower, less effective wheel.

Well, my 20" barreled .358 BLR would fire a 250-grain Speer spitzer at 2420 FPS, V @ 10' from the muzzle. That's 50 grains lighter and 100 FPS slower than the .375 H&H Magnum 300-grain load. Admittedly, a real wimp of a round, there!! Yet, no doubt completely adequate for anything in North America. Of course, any round of similar caliber based on the '06 case is more capable.

The best thing that ever happened to the .308 case was necking it down to the 7-08, .260 Rem or even the .243. Using it for bullets over .284 diameter is a mistake IMO.

Well Oddball as someone posted on a different forum on this same subject....

"Geez guys! I get a kick out of all the nay sayers, most of whom seem to there should only be one cartridge out there (fill in the blank), 'cus that's all that is needed.

There was a gap in the .308 based lineup and someone filled it. GREAT!

As stated, 99% of the cartridges out there will work just fine for North American game. Stick a good bullet in any of them and put it in the right spot and who really gives a chit?

Everything else boils down to shooting something that makes you grin".

And about your attack on the 308, I guess you don't subscribe to Handloader or to Rifle magazines and haven't read the article by John Barsness. If you had you would have been better educated as to what the 308 can and can not do.

IMO your ignorance is showing.

Oddball?
Whazzup? On 11 Jan 06 you wrote that you hoped the .338 Federal would be wildly succesful. Now your 180-out and dissin the 08 case in general.
That simple case structure is many decades old and highly succesful for good reason, it fits into a vast array of different shooting platforms and it performs well in it's various forms.
I don't personaly own a .308. But if I did and it was all I had, it would be 100% effective for all my centerfire shooting needs here in Oregon.
Your entitled to your opinion, but I can't share it. BT53

Whats the big difference' I can't think of a cartridge outthere I couldn.t find a use for. I know the 6mm is a little hotter than the .243 thay does'nt change the .243 from a good round to a bad. The 7mm08 ain't quite the 7X57. Thats true, but the 7X57 aint quite the 280 either, and the 280 ain't quite the 7 mag and the the 7 mag aint quite the stw. I would be tickeled to have a rifle in any of the calibers listed above and i would be even more tickeled to have 2 or three of each. I probably would never find time or hunts to use them all but thats beside the point. ...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
Whats the big difference' I can't think of a cartridge outthere I couldn.t find a use for. I know the 6mm is a little hotter than the .243 thay does'nt change the .243 from a good round to a bad. The 7mm08 ain't quite the 7X57. Thats true, but the 7X57 aint quite the 280 either, and the 280 ain't quite the 7 mag and the the 7 mag aint quite the stw. I would be tickeled to have a rifle in any of the calibers listed above and i would be even more tickeled to have 2 or three of each. I probably would never find time or hunts to use them all but thats beside the point. ...tj3006

Spot on!!!

I don't see any reason to get worked up over any one of them or any new round or old round the companys bring out.

The andswer is easy if you don't like it don't buy it. If you like it and want it buy one.

They are going to sell any thing they can to make money.

quote:

To me the .308 case is too small for any useful purpose beyond a childs or womans gun.

My shooting buddies M-14 is deffinatly not a woman or childs gun. I hold just as much respect for the .308 as I do the 30-06 and that's saying something.

As far as the 338-08, well it's a .338 caliber so there can't be anything wrong with it in my book. In the past 4 years I haven't killed a big game animal over 35-40 yards. I love my 338WMag to death but now use my .340 Jaden (-2oofps) all the time because without the range I can't tell the difference. Except on my eardrums.

If you don't like it... leave it on the rack.

quote:

340 Jaden

NB Hunter, check this out:

http://www.sskindustries.com/cartridges.htm

Look at the 338 Whisper. I believe it is on a 7BR case. That would be interesting. It would have to be very mild, but throw a large heavy bullet, I would think a 200 gr would do 2000-2100, say a Hornady, a 180 might do a little more.

That would be a lot quieter, what expansion would be at that speed I don't know, perhaps a roundnose would help, but it would be different.

I will personally try a 338/08 w/o reservation.

Never owned a 308, but shot lots of 6/6.5/7mm's on that case.

I agree with El Deguello as I don't know what living could keep going after hit with his 358, not that a 308 and the right bullet could not get to vitals as well, but Elmer Keith was no fool and larger/heavier bullets have their place in the field on game. Target shooting and sniping may be different.

I would love to have that stats on how far the majority of deer and up large game is taken.

I dare say magnums were seldom 'needed' but you can never over do it as dead is dead but I for one hate recoil and blast and try to minimize it.

The military I believe went to 308 for ammo weight savings at a minimal costs in performance, but a benefit in slightly less recoil, blast and economic savings using less powder/brass not that Uncle Sam is so concerned with the latter.

Just found more info not that anyone here will use a 338 Whisper but look what a 7mm BR case can do with a 180 gr! (yes, a 2nd version of the Whisper is made using a 221 FB case and I seen data using 200gr at 2200!)

http://www.reloadersnest.com/query_bw.asp?CaliberID=389&BulletWeight=180

2400-2500fps. That is efficient with around 30 grains of powder. I wonder what speed a 300 savage shoots a 180 gr at?

Now that would be one cool different round, an Encore mild recoil/blast thumper. Getting expansion is an issue so the lighter constructed lighter 180-200's would work best I believe ie. 180 Btip and 200 hornady.

After my stent trying the '08 version, I might have to 'downsize' to a 7BR version as I shoot that now and have some brass for it.

I know, I could download a 338 Federal, but imagine the looks in camp when someone says 'what are you shooting, and you hand them a round'

Ok, it was all for fun guys.

The truth of the matter at hand is that any cartridge able of pushing a projectile fast enough to punch holes through thin skinned game out to 250 yards is by deffinition effective. I agree the best thing that ever happened to the .308 was the 7mm and 6.5. However the .308 case is only successful because it was chamberwed as a U.S. military round. If the U.S. had adopted the 7.62x39 we would be having this discussion based on that case. The same goes for the 06 case. If our military had opted for the .303 british we would be wildcatting the heck out of that one. I do hope the .33-08 is successful. That will be determined by how many American gun manufacturers chamber for the round and then market the guns. The only real advantage to the 33-08 case is its use in an AR10 platform.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OddBall2:
However the .308 case is only successful because it was chamberwed as a U.S. military round. [/QUOT

I'll drink to that. and roger

Isn't the PPC on the 7.62x39 case? same as 220 russian or not?

Now there is a 6.5 Grendel on the PPC case and it betters the 6.8 and works in the AR-15 platform. This ctg would be a vast improvement in my opinion over the 5.56.

At this rate, how many years will it take to have a cartridge in every bore diameter from .177 to ??? I just can't wait until someone brings out a .292 Magnum.

Well, look at the auto industry, I guess the 350 chevy could be as the 30-06 is to cartridges, but there have been and will continue to be different size cu. in. etc.

In the auto world, everyone is pushing horsepower-i.e. a 427 vette for '06, is it needed to go 70mph? They are fun, but it does not hurt like big magnum's punching your shoulder, yet performance at a price none-the-less.

At the pump, you pay to play, just like with the hobby with reloading. More powder just like more gas with the 'hemi Chryslers vs 4 banger rice burners'

Everyone wants a different flavor so the mfg offer whatever can make another buck. Each has its virtues, some performance, some efficiency, just depends on application.

Off topic, but....

Long live the 6.5 Grendel and... never doubt the small block chevy will git er dun!!!

I sure loved the 283 in my old '64 Biscayne from high school. Damned thing wound up to 6.5-7k RPM in the mud/snow-yes I had a tach, and it held together.

Isn't it a funny, interesting correlation, the auto industry had lots of big blocks, went the opposite extreme, and now coming back with high performance motors! We had the 338, 7mm and 264 mags, 375's, etc, then 243, 260, 222, now a recent push with WSM's and WSSM's, but now the 338F.

As the learning curve extends, products keep being refined and are engineered for 'as form follows function' with an intended purpose in mind.

The 204 is to have FLAT trajectory like the swift, but easier to spot hits. So the 338 Federal is to launch a heavy big slug like the Win Mag, but at a recoil level tolerable to the average shooter who puts in little range time.

I think Federal did their homework to know before introducing to market that this round will perform as intended.

The 350 chevy has been viable in race cars to trucks since '68. You're kidding yourself if you think the 338 Federal will have that kind of enviable reputation after 35 years.

At least someone's standardizing the dimesions for the 338-08 so wildcatters will have something to work with 35 years from now...

you are right about one thing the 308 is a womans cartrigde. my woman took a whitetail that scored 136 1/2 this year with a 308 Handi rifle. deer went 30 yards and fell over. you wont pry that 308 from her hands, mike

I still kick myself (and cry alot) over not buying a Sav 99 in 358 Win.s @ 10 years ago. Think a 338-08 is great. Wondered about bullets, though. Are the 338 bullets made for the Mags and such too strongly constructed for 308 size case velocities,ie, 250 grainers? Any thoughts?

quote:

Well, look at the auto industry, I guess the 350 chevy could be as the 30-06 is to cartridges, but there have been and will continue to be different size cu. in. etc.

Dave, you misunderstood me, read above, to me the 30-06 in this country is the gold standard and akin to the 350 chevrolet to autos.

In 35 years we may be shooting laser beams, or perhaps not at all......Big Brother..

All in fun.

Gimpy, to your point about bullet construction, I have not done 'elaborate' tests, but when I shot my 338/06 I dug up bullets in the backstop at 200 yards.....225 Hornady's and 215 BTSP's.

The Hornady's looked damned perfect mushrooms but some were started to slip from the core/jacket.

The Sierras seemed to slip often. In the 338F, the 215 Sierra would likely do fine on deer, perhaps elk, but when I get mine, I plan to use the 200 Hornady SP at 2650-2700 (much more economical for practice vs others) on deer. The 200 gr ballistic tip is Far more expensive, not needed, and longer (long nose, and BT-but works BEAUTIFUL in the '06 or WM ctg's) which will intrude into the powder capacity.

Heck, in that Shooters Time article, the Pic of the 180 accubond looks like the point is flattened or 'cut off' to shorten it.

210 partition will often be the heaviest used in my mind but a 225 Hornady, partition, or the like would not be out of the question. At moderate ranges, its 2400 mv should really penetrate well though expansion will be non-dramatic which would in my mind make a say conventional Hornady 225 all needed on any game at the lowered velocity level it will launch. I would not expect bullet failure with the Hornady 225. In Timber on Elk, bear, etc where shots are closer, you are thumping them with a heavier slug which should equal say a 225 or 250 in effect out of a 358 win.

I guess that if the .308 is a womans and childrens round, then the 30-30 must be for infants only. I personally feel that a real man, with lots of hunting experience and ethics, will stalk close enough to the game he harvests, to kill it with a bow, muzzleloader, .308 or 30-30. Needing a big belted stumpwhumper, makes me curious as to a fellows other shortcomings.
Regards,
Woody (angry white man)

quote:

Dave, you misunderstood me,

I don't think so, 6.5BR. You were making an analogy (similarity in some respects between things otherwise unlike), were you not? I didn't mean to single you out with my response. It is a generality.

I agree that the 350 chevy and '06 are the gold standard. I can't fathom what circumstances or worldly events could possible lead the 338 Federal to match these two by 2041. Can you? Anyone else care to guess how this cartridge is going to become God's gift to the shooting community?

I'm not knocking this cartridge. I don't care if half the AR membership buys a gun chambered in 338Federal. I don't think it will ever be more than a flash in the pan.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 6.5BR:
Gimpy, to your point about bullet construction, I have not done 'elaborate' tests, but when I shot my 338/06 I dug up bullets in the backstop at 200 yards.....225 Hornady's and 215 BTSP's....

Thanks for the info. Sorry if my questions were redundant. Didn't see the thread below on the ST review. Just read thru it. Questions answered.

onefunzr2,

I don't feel that the 338 F will replace or ever be as popular as the 30-06 that has been around 100 years, in military rifles, and using bullets 110-220 or so in weight, lots of versatility.

Did my comment about Chevy re-intro the 427 in 2006 (not 30-06) confuse you?

Anyway, I never felt, meant, or believe I implied the 338 F will replace or overtake the 30-06.

I do believe that it will do as good as or better of a job downing most any game within 300 yards under any and all conditions. I don't see any of Federal's loads having any problems with bullet failure or excess meat damage, nor lacking in energy or penetration under all conditions on deer thru elk.

Is it perfect, nothing is, but will it be a reliable round.....in my mind absolutely yes.

That is my opinion, as good as the 30-06 has been and will be, I see a solid dependable round from deer to elk in the 338F, and that covers a LOT of hunting.

It is my opinion and I choose to buy a 338F in the future and put it to good use.

Thanks for all the replies.

I don't really understand all this hype about different cartridges. I do understand nostalgia and a comfortable shooting a beloved rifle. In reality any cartridge that can deliver between 2300 and 3000 fps at the muzzle with a bullet weight between 100 gr and 500 gr is gonna kill stuff quite effectively. Given those perameters, that fills a hell of a lot of cartridges. So what's the big deal?

Well, I think the .308 cartridge family is most important when fitted to the proper action. For example, my old .358 BLR is a dream to handle and shoot, just the ticket for eastern woods hunting! Replace it with a .30-06 based cartridge and I'm not so sure that it would still retain the dynamic handling.

quote:

my old .358 BLR is a dream to handle

I was thinking earlier today how nice that BLR would be in a 338F, slightly less recoil due to a slightly lowered bullet weight.

In my limited knowledge to someone who posted most any slug can get the job done.....yes they can.....but I have seen game run further or lesser dependent upon the round hit with.

I have not been impressed with what I have seen on occasion with some ctg's/bullet combo's.

Yes, likely if a better bullet was chosen for the cartridge, game might have expired sooner, yet day in and out, I hear SO many praises with 338/06, 338 WM, 358 Win, and 35 Whelen AND the 9.3x62 that I have to believe that they put game down with little fuss, and seldom have bullets that blow up.

Many conventional hight velocity small bore bullets will often shed too much weight, losing penetration, and often fail to exit leaving a blood trail.

Slower big heavy slugs despite brand, or what they hit, tend to more consistently deliver under adverse shot conditions when time and opportunity does not permit a better shot by waiting. How many naysayers go downrange and dig up all the high vel. small bore slugs that have jacket-core separation?

I would rather shoot a conventional 200-225 bullet at moderate speeds than even a premium 140-180gr as the mid bores will have lots of lead remaining throughout impact and spread a generous shock wave by virtue of its frontal diameter, not dependent on velocity alone, thereby transferring energy in a controlled manner. Somewhere between a bullet that would blow and not move a metal ram vs a non-expanding bullet that will drill a hole through it-and game, are bullets that will expand, transfer and momentum and have great success on game. Years ago I noticed how a 44 TC pistol-180 and 240gr smacked the ram at 100 yds much further back than did my 30-30 with 125-150s. I believe the same energy transfer applies to game.

I don't like seeing game run at all, nor do I like to see shoulders blown off by super speedsters.

I will use small bores 6BR, 7BR, 243, 6.5's, and 7/08's for deer on Morning hunts (not worried much on evening hunts with 260/6.5x55/7-08 with good bullets) and might would shoot an elk with the 6.5's or 7/08 with a premium bullet, but given a choice for larger game than deer, OR deer in the evening when shots are usually taken just before dusk and you cannot always pinpoint your placement (as I have taken several deer with neck/spine shots in good shooting light/conditions), I will be using in the future a 338 or 35 bore based on 308 to 30-06 case.

I think I will do well and if I need to follow a blood trail, I think the larger bullets will let more blood out......both sides.

Just what I prefer to do, as I have witnessed deer running a good ways with 243's as well as 30-06 from average shooters who don't shoot as much as I do, reload, or always pick the best bullets. I think extra weight/diameter is a hedge against murphy's law as moderate mid bores seem more consistent in performance.