quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Didn't way back when the Weatherby rounds and the first introductions of .300 and 7mm magnum were going hot, didn't Remington introduce a "magnum" that had the greater volume but without the belt?
IIRC, it was notable by the speed with which it flopped. By God, if the American market was going to get a magnum, it had to have a belt.

Well. there was the 222 Remington Magnum. the 256 Winchester Mag, and the 22WMR...all sans belt.

Because I have always loved playing with very reduced loads I hate rimless cases.

I am not sure but I think the other reason the H&H was belted is it would give more positive ignition.

In reality a belted case was just a way of making a rimmed case but without the feeding/magazine stacking issues of the rimmed case.

And the 458 Lott isn't a magnum and it has a belt...

quote:

Originally posted by Michael McGuire:
Because I have always loved playing with very reduced loads I hate rimless cases.

I am not sure but I think the other reason the H&H was belted is it would give more positive ignition.

In reality a belted case was just a way of making a rimmed case but without the feeding/magazine stacking issues of the rimmed case.

Belted for double rifles

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
And the 458 Lott isn't a magnum and it has a belt...

Just because it doesn't say magnum doesn't mean it isn't one. The term originates from the Latin magnum, the neuter form of magnus, meaning "great in size". Magnum has been used for over 300 years to denote a wine bottle twice the standard size.



It is interesting to note that the term "Magnum" was registered in USA in 1935 by Smith & Wesson Inc. as the name of a powerful type of handgun, the .357 Magnum.

Perhaps some of the new giant capacity cartridges should be referred to as Double Magnums or Jeroboams.

Well I guess there will always be a few of us authritec curmudgeons from the "old days" that refuse to give up on what has worked for a lifetime and they just never knew better..Without a doubt they are wroght with nostalgia..

The bottom line is I ain't selling my belted cartridges or my 25-35 Win. just to please a gang of upstanding newbies that question the ways and means committee of "Hang in there old timers gang of eight", it'll all be over soon!

The way I see it:

Do you think that anybody ever thinks about a case having a belt, or a rim, or a shoulder, when shooting a rifle? It makes no difference if the case has a belt or not; it's the same bullet coming out the barrel.

The real difference in recent years relate to bullet construction, not case design. Gun manufacturers realized that the only way to sell guns was by introducing the idea that the belt was "evil," just ahead of producing belt-less cartridges. But in reality "wildcatters" have been doing the same for many years, without advertising.

I'm a relative youngster at the ripe old age of 51 and I have been hunting everything with one belted magnum cartridge almost exclusively since 1993.

This belted beauty made her debut in 1958 in the Winchester Model 70 Alaskan...the great 338 Winchester Magnum.

She has served me very well killing everything from Sitka Blacktails to Brown Bears all with one bullet weight. I admit to resizing her cases based not on her belt but on her svelte shoulder and she functions just fine either way.

I would like to call your attention to the belted magnum picture at the top of this forum. What is it? Well it looks like the 338 Winchester Magnum to me. From my seat on the bus it is the classic American medium bore...

How about the magazine capacity, the belted case will hold one more round than the RUMs etc. besides most belted cases are actually suitable as ones testosterone dwindles ala my 300 H&H and my 338 Win., and what do the big unbelted cases get you? well after all the BS it amounts to 100 to a 150 FPS difference. oh my!

I find it ironic that the first home grown
American high performance cartridges, the .30 Newton, the .35 Newton and the .40 Newton, were all beltless. If Winchester had decided to offer the Model 70 in those calibers, I question whether belted cartridges would have ever appeared on the American scene.

The Newton case is practically identical with that of the high performance German cartridges 6.5X68 and 8X68.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
I find it ironic that the first home grown
American high performance cartridges, the .30 Newton, the .35 Newton and the .40 Newton, were all beltless. If Winchester had decided to offer the Model 70 in those calibers, I question whether belted cartridges would have ever appeared on the American scene.

The Newton case is practically identical with that of the high performance German cartridges 6.5X68 and 8X68.

What's the irony? Do you think the 300 H&H and the 375 H&H would never had appeared on the American scene because a little corner of America was shooting the 30, 35, and 40 Newton? Do you think othe firearms manufactures stop coming out with new cartridges because something is already covered?

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:
What's the irony? Do you think the 300 H&H and the 375 H&H would never had appeared on the American scene because a little corner of America was shooting the 30, 35, and 40 Newton? Do you think othe firearms manufactures stop coming out with new cartridges because something is already covered?

The irony is that the H&H cartridges would never have reached their populariety if they had not been offered in the mass produced Winchesters, and to a lesser extent, Remingtons. Prior to that, they were available only as high priced British sporters or from American makers such as Hoffman Arms, Niedner and Griffin & Howe.

The .300 H&H really came into its own as a long range cartridge after Ben Comfort won the Wimbledon Match with it back in the 1930's.

.30 Newton, a cartridge invented in 1913 and discontinued as a factory load in 1935
Case capacity (Volume in cc/s) 5.78 (Grains of water) 89.20
150 gr (10 g) 3,208 ft/s (978 m/s) 3,445 ft·lbf (4,671 J)
172 gr (11 g) 3,000 ft/s (910 m/s) 3,440 ft·lbf (4,660 J)
225 gr (15 g) 2,610 ft/s (800 m/s) 3,470 ft·lbf (4,700 J)

.300 H&H, a cartridge invented in 1925 and loaded today with the benefit of modern progressive burning powders
Case capacity (Volume in cc/s) 5.755 (Grains of water) 88.82
150 gr (10 g) GRSL 3,362 ft/s (1,025 m/s) 3,766 ft·lbf (5,106 J)
165 gr (11 g) SP 3,213 ft/s (979 m/s) 3,783 ft·lbf (5,129 J)
180 gr (12 g) SP 3,077 ft/s (938 m/s) 3,785 ft·lbf (5,132 J)
200 gr (13 g) HPBT 2,913 ft/s (888 m/s) 3,769 ft·lbf (5,110 J)
220 gr (14 g) RN 2,743 ft/s (836 m/s) 3,676 ft·lbf (4,984 J)

The .30 Newton, like the .30/.338 (the so called "Belted Newton") and the .308 Norma Magnum, had a cartridge case approximately 2.5" long, so it will easily fit in a standard, .30-'06 length action.

quote:

Originally posted by arkypete:
True classic Americana was any rimmed cartridge functioning thru a Winchester or Marlin lever action rifle.

Jim

Amen!

Please take in consideration also that:
A: Brits are Brits and still now wants to be Brits and not European.

Remember that while they developped belt cartridges to solve a non problem, there was in Germany people that developped real unbelted Magnum cartridges like 8X68

I am not a fan of the belt in any shape or form. I heard about all the elephants in the state, thought I might run into one, bought a Win M70 push feed in 375 H&H. Later I found that the elephants in the state are Bama fans, but, still had the rifle. I loaded a number of 235 grain rounds, loaded them into the magazine, and decided to shoot rapid fire. Might have a charging mouse or rat that needs a second shot.

I had rim lock. I could shuck the round out and get one going before the empty hit the ground, but occasionally I had rim lock. The front edge of the belt on the top round would catch on the rim of the next round. I would have to lower the rifle, pull the bolt back, press on the top round and push the whole stack down, before the jam would clear. This happened more than once, how many times, I don't remember.

I have not had that problem with my pre 64 in 300 H&H but, I have never shot rapid fire with that rifle. I have had rim lock with the Russian 7.62 X 54. Basically, I think any round with fins or a rim has the potential for rim lock and don't think all that highly of rimmed rounds, or belted rounds. For me, hunting dangerous game with a belted magnum is a bad idea because I don't trust the round not to rim lock. The round is perfectly fine punching holes in paper, but shooting something big and toothy, I want rimless.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
I have not had that problem with my pre 64 in 300 H&H but, I have never shot rapid fire with that rifle. I have had rim lock with the Russian 7.62 X 54. Basically, I think any round with fins or a rim has the potential for rim lock and don't think all that highly of rimmed rounds, or belted rounds. For me, hunting dangerous game with a belted magnum is a bad idea because I don't trust the round not to rim lock. The round is perfectly fine punching holes in paper, but shooting something big and toothy, I want rimless.

Years ago in Kenya I was hunting on private land managed by my PH's brother-in-law. Driving down a dusty lane we happened upon a pack of Cape hunting dogs making a meal of an impala. My PH remarked that the hunting dogs are normally protected, but not on private land, where they are a menace to livestock. He suggested that I might like to do his brother-in-law a favor by disposing of one or two.

We stopped the car and I took my pre-64 Model 70 .300 H&H, loaded to the top with 180 grain Silvertips and started toward the dogs. They simply stared at me until I arrived at an appropriate range of about 50 yards and touched off the first shot. Five shots, four dead hunting dogs, all but one running shots. Never a bobble with the cartridges.

Which, of course, proves nothing, but I have never experienced "rim lock" with any of my CRF rifles, starting with the .264 Winchester Magnum and going up to my .505 SRE, based on a shortened .460 Weatherby case. Maybe avoiding push feed is the answer.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
I find it ironic that the first home grown
American high performance cartridges, the .30 Newton, the .35 Newton and the .40 Newton, were all beltless. If Winchester had decided to offer the Model 70 in those calibers, I question whether belted cartridges would have ever appeared on the American scene.

The Newton case is practically identical with that of the high performance German cartridges 6.5X68 and 8X68.

Actually the Newton deigned .30 .33, .35, and .40 Newton cartridges were not designed using the 6.5/8x68 cartridge cases. The Newton cartridges were very close to the .280 Ross case in rim and base diameters or the .375 H&H case without the belt.

Winchester procured the Newton legacy equipment and patents so they could easily have continued production of the Newton cartridges in the M70 rifle. Unfortunately Winchester was also responsible for the undersized Newton brass in later production runs which lead many to presume the x68 cartridge cases to be the Newton parent cases. Most likely it was to save money on the cost of the brass buttons used in the manufacturing process.

Please explain to me how a cartridge with its head fully encased in the face of a bolt can get "rim locked" on the top cartridge in the magazine? have we just discovered a new word? One that I have been totally unaware of for more years than I care to rememeber?

As far as I know the only way the rims of the cartridges can become "locked" is if they are not loaded top cartridge in front of the next one down.

On a whim, last week I loaded three .375NE 2-1/2" Flanged cartridges into a bare, magnum faced, Mauser action. It was easy and natural to load each cartridge in front of the rim of the next cartridge down. They loaded, fed, and extracted perfectly. I was so surprised I had to do it several times to convince myself just how well it worked out.

Military rifles like Mosin-Nagant, Siamese Mauser, and SMLE had good reputations for feeding and functioning with rimmed cartridges. They were fitted with slanted magazines to assist proper arrangement of the rims when loading from stripper clips but slanted magazines would not be required for loading cartridges one by one.

Xausa,
I have no dog in this fight, but you gotta realize the facts...

1. The belted cartridge won the race, they are the most popular cases in the USA, Canada, Africa, in fact they own the world..like it or not..

2. I'd die fighting for your right to disagree!!

Yeehaw!

"rimlocked" now that's a new one on me, never had it happen, never heard of it before, if it happened to someone, it was either their over active imagination or they better find a better gunsmith...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
"rimlocked" now that's a new one on me, never had it happen, never heard of it before, if it happened to someone, it was either their over active imagination or they better find a better gunsmith...

There is always the chance to learn something new every day, if you are willing to cast aside biases.

Here is a good picture tutorial on how to load 303 British rounds on the stripper clip so you don't get rim lock from feeding from the magazine.

Charger Loading the Lee Enfield - Pictorial Guide by Tikirocker

http://www.surplusrifleforum.c...ic.php?f=120&t=85733

Google searches are easy to do. Here is one I did, its called 303 Brit Rim Lock https://www.google.com/?gws_rd...#q=303+brit+rim+lock See all the responses and comments on how to avoid rim lock in the Lee Enfield?

This one is 7.62 Russian Rim Lock https://www.google.com/?gws_rd....62+Russian+rim+lock See all the responses and comments on how to avoid rim lock in the Mosin Nagant?

Not everyone is the sum of all human knowledge, I know I am not. But these search engines allow for discovering all sorts of information that would have been in the past, totally obtainable. I don't understand how people can claim ignorance, when all it takes is a web search to take them from ignorant, to knowledgeable.

Don't forget to inhale - real deep! LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
While we are at it let's update the cartridge nomenclature and call:

The case mouth: la bocca classico
The case neck: le goulot classique
The shoulder: klassische schulter
The case wall: جدار الكلاسيكية (jadar alklasyky)
The primer pocket: классический анус (klassicheskiy anus)
The primer: classic buttplug

Now put that in your classic pipe and classically smoke it!

Damn Skippy, I thought we were discussing belted cartridges not flanged cartridges from a couple of centuries ago. However, I must admit I didn't know what rim lock was and was too totally lazy to look it up.
Does that make me a bad person?

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
I am not a fan of the belt in any shape or form. I heard about all the elephants in the state, thought I might run into one, bought a Win M70 push feed in 375 H&H. Later I found that the elephants in the state are Bama fans, but, still had the rifle. I loaded a number of 235 grain rounds, loaded them into the magazine, and decided to shoot rapid fire. Might have a charging mouse or rat that needs a second shot.

I had rim lock. I could shuck the round out and get one going before the empty hit the ground, but occasionally I had rim lock. The front edge of the belt on the top round would catch on the rim of the next round. I would have to lower the rifle, pull the bolt back, press on the top round and push the whole stack down, before the jam would clear. This happened more than once, how many times, I don't remember.

I have not had that problem with my pre 64 in 300 H&H but, I have never shot rapid fire with that rifle. I have had rim lock with the Russian 7.62 X 54. Basically, I think any round with fins or a rim has the potential for rim lock and don't think all that highly of rimmed rounds, or belted rounds. For me, hunting dangerous game with a belted magnum is a bad idea because I don't trust the round not to rim lock. The round is perfectly fine punching holes in paper, but shooting something big and toothy, I want rimless.

Canadians of a certain age were all taught that Lee Enfields in .303 British had to have the cartridges loaded in order or it would tie up the works. The belt on a magnum case was developed to eliminate that problem while keeping the advantages of a rim.
Although I've heard of belts tieing up, I've never seen it and have never managed to do it even on purpose. Not only can I not made one bind, I literally can't tell the difference.