Belted magnums and Americana.

13 January 2016, 21:25

Just a thought
If Chevys fords and caddys with fins on the back, and jukeboxes and pinball machines are considered an essential part of American history, why not also then the American belted magnum?
One could argue that the Brit magnums had a use for the belt because of the lack of shoulder to headspace on, and the Yankee magnums not, but.....is the belted win mag or rem mag not worthy of being given Americana status? In my not so humble opinion, the belt on Rays much loved 338 win mag, is as much an important part of design flair as the fins on JFK's Cadillac, and deserves a place of honour as an American Classic.
The fact that we still use the belted classics, is a triumph of function over form, but the form itself is as classic as a 50's/ 60's Harley.
Let's start calling them belted classics from an amazing time, instead of all the insults.

14 January 2016, 00:05

analog_peninsula

Die heretic!

14 January 2016, 00:39

BNagel

Next he'll want to simplify all cartridge nomenclature under the metric system only.

14 January 2016, 00:50

larrys

quote:
Just a thought
If Chevys fords and caddys with fins on the back, and jukeboxes and pinball machines are considered an essential part of American history, why not also then the American belted magnum?
One could argue that the Brit magnums had a use for the belt because of the lack of shoulder to headspace on, and the Yankee magnums not, but.....is the belted win mag or rem mag not worthy of being given Americana ~~status~~ stupid ? In my not so humble opinion, the belt on Rays much loved 338 win mag, is as much an important part of design ~~flair~~ flaw as the fins on JFK's Cadillac, and deserves a place of ~~honour~~ humor as an American Classic.
The fact that we still use the belted classics, is a triumph of function over form, but the form itself is as classic as a 50's/ 60's Harley.
Let's start calling them belted classics from an ~~amazing~~ absurd time, instead of all the insults.

There I fixed it for you.

14 January 2016, 00:51

Grenadier

Then one could also argue that the French had a use for the rim because of the lack of shoulder to headspace on. The British quickly picked up on that and created the flanged cartridges. The Americans and Europeans quickly followed suit adding rims to their black-powder and later smokeless powder cartridges. The fact that we still use the flanged classics, is a triumph of function over form, but the form itself is as classic as a 1890's/1920's Triumph.

Let's start calling them flanged classics from an amazing time, like .30-30 flanged classic and 7x65 flanged classic, instead of all the insults.

But enough of this ridiculous nonesense. I'm going to go out and shoot some rabbits with my Ruger 10-22 .22 Flobert classic.

14 January 2016, 01:10

ted thorn

Didn't Holland and Holland come up with the belted case?

14 January 2016, 01:14

Grenadier

Yes. Absolutely, and it wasn't even a magnum!

14 January 2016, 01:32

arkypete

True classic Americana was any rimmed cartridge functioning thru a Winchester or Marlin lever action rifle.

Jim

14 January 2016, 01:32

Grenadier

While we are at it let's update the cartridge nomenclature and call:

The case mouth: la bocca classico
The case neck: le goulot classique
The shoulder: klassische schulter
The case wall: جدار الكلاسيكية (jadar alklasyky)
The primer pocket: классический анус (klassicheskiy anus)
The primer: classic buttplug

Now put that in your classic pipe and classically smoke it!

14 January 2016, 03:43

Idaho Sharpshooter

you guys need a life upgrade...

14 January 2016, 05:01

Dulltool17

Not so classic, Rich......

14 January 2016, 20:30

boet

Ha ha , thanks fellas, just like sitting round a fire shooting shit, l love it

14 January 2016, 20:40

Nordic2

True classic Americana was any rimmed cartridge functioning thru a Winchester or Marlin lever action rifle.

Jim

Winchester 1895 were made in .30 russian for the russian empire.

14 January 2016, 22:44

wildcat junkie

All breech loader use suppositories for ammunition.

15 January 2016, 06:49

ted thorn

quote:
Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
you guys need a life upgrade...

A suggestion from a member with nearly 21,000 post

15 January 2016, 07:50

analog_peninsula

ROFLMAO!

21 January 2016, 04:52

Atkinson

I still want to know how you guys that hate the belt keep your pants up...

That said, the belted magnum has proved itself over and over again, and is only dreaded by those that say "it must be"..Holland and Hollands 375 sure has a good track record..

I would like to know one thing wrong with the belted case other than gossip...if you handload properly its a damn strong long lasting case. This condemnation of the worlds most popular calibers confuses me, must be an internet virus!

21 January 2016, 06:56

ted thorn

The big problem with these shooters that insist on a belt is that they have a tough time finding a matching purse.......

21 January 2016, 08:57

taylorce1

quote:
Originally posted by ted thorn:
quote:
Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
you guys need a life upgrade...

A suggestion from a member with nearly 21,000 post

TFF!

21 January 2016, 10:50

Idaho Sharpshooter

just consider the source...

22 January 2016, 02:14

arkypete

quote:
Originally posted by Nordic2:
True classic Americana was any rimmed cartridge functioning thru a Winchester or Marlin lever action rifle.

Jim

Winchester 1895 were made in .30 russian for the russian empire.

I think the Zarovich was shown a 38-72 Winchester chambered 95 first. The Zarovich asked if it could be chambered in 7.62 x 54 Rimmed. I could be and he ordered something 500,000 of them.

Jim

22 January 2016, 02:15

arkypete

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
I still want to know how you guys that hate the belt keep your pants up... I still want to know how you guys that hate the belt keep your pants up...

Viagra!

That said, the belted magnum has proved itself over and over again, and is only dreaded by those that say "it must be"..Holland and Hollands 375 sure has a good track record..

I would like to know one thing wrong with the belted case other than gossip...if you handload properly its a damn strong long lasting case. This condemnation of the worlds most popular calibers confuses me, must be an internet virus!

26 January 2016, 19:04

Quintus

Is there anyone that still cares about the belt? It's the word magnum that gives people wood. 30 years ago the 7 mag would have sold just as well with or without the belt, it just so happens if you wanted that bigger case it came with a belt. Wuddaya gonna do? The RUMs have done fine and the Nosler rounds seem to be selling quite well without the belt. To the original post, that IS what makes it Americana which is to say not necessary, but at the time cool and classy...at the time...like tail fins. I love the 300 Roy, not for the belt, but for 180 grain Scirocco at 3200FPS. When I bought my first one in 1990 a belted case was the only way to get it. To be honest anything guns is Americana. We are the only society that has fallen so in love with the gun that private citizens are not only allowed to, but openly propagandized to have as many of the latest and greatest that they can afford. We don't have a gun for squirrels, deer, and elk. We have a gun for squirrels. A gun for deer. And another for elk. The belt was just part of the evolution of the modern day magnum, a slice of Americana.

26 January 2016, 20:32

Grenadier

Non-belted (and non-rimmed) cases headspace on the shoulder. Belted cases headspace on the belt. In my opinion, that makes the belted cases easier and more forgiving to reload.

26 January 2016, 21:30

Mike McGuire

quote:
Originally posted by Grenadier:
Non-belted (and non-rimmed) cases headspace on the shoulder. Belted cases headspace on the belt. In my opinion, that makes the belted cases easier and more forgiving to reload.

And for those who would argue the shoulder is better to head space with, well, the belted case can do that as well

26 January 2016, 21:56

Idaho Sharpshooter

the belt as headspacing is why belted cases separate just ahead of the belt...

26 January 2016, 22:14

Mike McGuire

quote:
Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
the belt as headspacing is why belted cases separate just ahead of the belt...

If you FLS then you need to learn how to reload

If you neck size it does not matter.

With very expensive brass such as the 378 based calibres you can simply run an expander plug through the new brass (next calibre size up) then FLS with the die correctly adjusted.

Shooters who have problems with belted brass need to look to themselves.

26 January 2016, 22:19

Mike McGuire

PS,

Trying to argue the case for the rimless over belted is always a lost argument and simply because a belted case can be loaded the same way as a rimless.

27 January 2016, 00:20

ZekeShikar

quote:
Originally posted by Michael McGuire:
PS,

Trying to argue the case for the rimless over belted is always a lost argument and simply because a belted case can be loaded the same way as a rimless.

Bingo!
Zeke

27 January 2016, 01:32

Bill Leeper

The only issue with belted cases is not the belt per se but sloppy tolerances by manufacturers of brass and rifles. It is not unusual to see well over .006 head clearance with new brass in a typical factory rifle. So, if a person relies on the belt, case head separations will occur after 3 or four firings. This explains the need to headspace on the shoulder when reloading. For gunsmiths, chambering at the nominal minimum of .220" will still result in substantial clearance with the potential for separations if the loader does not compensate for this by utilizing the shoulder.
An advantage of the belt shows up when one is trying to load very light loads. A rimless case will tend to shorten up with each loading while the belted case is prevented from doing so by the belt.
There are some very fine cartridges which happen to have belts and I like them anyway. Regards, Bill.

28 January 2016, 05:15

H47

It is a matter of sloppy tolerances as stated above. When chambering for a belted case, I cut the belt area .0015 to .002 less than the Go gauge. This takes up some of the slop and I have never had one that fails to close on any belted case. Imho makes for a tighter fit to factory ammo and unfired brass. When loading fired brass, of course headspace / adjust sizing die to the shoulder.

A good job is sometimes just a series of expertly fixed fark-ups.
Let's see.... is it 20 years experience or is it 1 years experience 20 times?
And I will have you know that I am not an old fart. I am a curmudgeon. A curmudgeon is an old fart with an extensive vocabulary and a really bad attitude.

29 January 2016, 06:06

Atkinson

IMO, the belt no longer serves a purpose, but it sure don't hurt a thang!

Without it I wouldn't have a 375 H&H or a 300 H&H or a .338 Win. or a 300 Win mag., or a 7mm magnum (ooops I sold that one) SO THERE!

29 January 2016, 07:20

moosemike

I think the belt looks really cool. But I'm a standard cartridge guy.

29 January 2016, 13:57

boet

The Brit belted cartridges are pre war classics
The yank belted cartridges are post war classics
And, if it's still around and going strong, it's a successful classic.
They are not the only classics, but each era has its classics, and they deserve a place simply because they have endured.

Then there's cool factor. That's a matter of taste, and tastes vary. I don't drive a 57 Chevy, but l won't call it crap

30 January 2016, 15:26

boet

Time for the truth. I'm an old fart now, and anything thats not a bit quirky just seems boring. One day in about fifty years, they'll be calling the short magnums classics.
Whatever

30 January 2016, 18:48

jeffeosso

308 norma 358 norma -- from sweden -- (sigh) ... oh, the irony

you do know that belted cases were invented, at least perfected, in the UK, after the US revolution, right?

and that wildcatting -- taking half baked ideas and making them better, is the most american trait of all? We might even start it in the US, then make it way better, in small shops -- then the big boys pick it up...

like high compression motors
rear view mirrors
disc brakes
high pressure brakes
fuel pumps
STARTERS...

shall I go on?

and yes, the original short mag, showing exactly this - the 6.5, 264, 7, 300, 338, (always surprised there wasn't a 7.5, a 348, a 358, or 375 US factory "short" mag) 416, 458 TWICE, and even a 470 ...

why? Because the US is a nation of tinkers ... and when we lose that, we lose it all

after all, WE had rifles, the brits had muskets - ... just saying

30 January 2016, 19:10

John303.

In age, I'm a bit up there and to me a "magnum" without the belt is in my perception not a magnum. I think they are cool, look great and if you reload you can forget the belt in most and use the shoulder instead. JMHO --- John

03 February 2016, 00:02

Atkinson

Not to worry, now all the belt whiners have the Ruger 375 to play with, and play they will, or rather have!! More power to them.

03 February 2016, 01:46

wasbeeman

Didn't way back when the Weatherby rounds and the first introductions of .300 and 7mm magnum were going hot, didn't Remington introduce a "magnum" that had the greater volume but without the belt?
IIRC, it was notable by the speed with which it flopped. By God, if the American market was going to get a magnum, it had to have a belt.

03 February 2016, 02:05

ted thorn

quote:
Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Didn't way back when the Weatherby rounds and the first introductions of .300 and 7mm magnum were going hot, didn't Remington introduce a "magnum" that had the greater volume but without the belt?
IIRC, it was notable by the speed with which it flopped. By God, if the American market was going to get a magnum, it had to have a belt.

And a matching purse