All,
I have a buddy who has sent me a bunch of older, very heavy 30 caliber bullets. The ones I am most intersted in are the 250 grain Barnes origionals and the "Huffnail?" 265 grain. Both are of a softpoint round nose design. Also recieved some 250 grain Barnes Solids.

My question is does anyone have some loading data for these heavy weights in the 30-06 and have you hunted with them? How did they perform? I think they are a minimum of 30 years old, maybe more and you don't come across these bullet weights in the loading data today.

Thanks for your help,
BigBullet

BigBullet
The following info comes from Barnes Reloading Manual No 2.
250 grain Original

Powder start gr. velocity max gr. velocity
H4831 50 2118 54 2287
H1000 54 2143 58 2302
IMR4350 46 2089 50 2271
IMR4831 47 2104 51 2283
WIN WMR 50 2134 54 2305
RL19 47.5 2119 51.5 2297
RL22 49 2138 53 2312

Hope this helps.

The ADI website also has loads listed for the 250gr.
http://www.adi-limited.com/handloaders-guide/rifle.asp
Personally I feel that a 250gr is moving the 30/06 away from what it's designed to be, but there's no harm trying.
Cheers...
Con

NE450,

Thanks for the loads. I'm currently working with IMR 4350 and H4831SC. I go to the range tomorrow, and I'll see what type of results I get.

Con, I don't disagree with your statement about the intention of the '06, and not only is there no harm in trying, but I find it damn fun. BTW, I checked on the site you posted, I don't recognize any of the powders listed. Thanks for trying though.

The 318 WR earned a very good reputation as a medium bore in Africa plains game, shooting a 250 grain bullets to 2450 fps. With the Barnes bullets, I was attempting to reach similar results. "Cartridges of the World" says it can be done as does PO Ackley, but nothing of modern vintage, with modern powders indicates that 2400 fps is possible.

I can get to 2500 fps with 220 grain RN bullets, so probably 2300 fps is a good goal for the 250 grain bullets.

Anyone else with some suggestions?

BigBullet

BigBullet
The 318 Westley richarda and the 333 Jeffery were great calibers that made their reputation before scopes and long range shooting were in vogue.
Your 30-06 with your heavy bullets will hit like the Hammer of Thor. If I knew I was going to have top make 300+ yard shots I would prefer a 180 grain premium bullet,[and I would use a 300 Mag] but those 250 grain bullets will knock down BIG big game very good.
Heavy weight, high SD and moderate velocity just plain works. Using my 9,3x74R has made me a believer. It has been very effective to 300 yards.

With 250 grain bullets at @ 2200 to 2300 fps [with mild pressure] all you will need is a sharp skinning knife.

Big Bullet,
ADI makes some of the Hodgdon powders. The H4831SC you've got there is AR2213SC. Like you said, no harm in having fun. Closer to the 318WR however would be a cheap Yugo Mauser, rechambered to 8mm/06 and firing a Woodleigh 250gr. The thought has crossed my mind.
Cheers...
Con

I once got the Barnes 250-gr. Originals up to about 2,250 in a 24" 30-06, but I didn't have enough of them to really work the problem. Keep us posted. Okie John

Con,

You'll have lots of fun fitting an 8mm-06 with 250's into that small yugo magazine. Unless of course you are referring to the yugo K98 refurbs or 24/52's.

Heres the range report from shooting the heavy weights.

I was using a 22" barrel length Remington mdl 725. This rifle has proven to be accurate over the years, but not very fast. All groups are three shot (trying to conserve my small amount of these bullets) at 100 meters.

1)250gr Barnes FMJ 51.5gr IMR 4350 2215FPS 1.44"
2)250gr Barnes FMJ 54.5gr H 4831SC 2205FPS 4"
3)265gr Huffnail RN 53.0 H 4831SC 2165FPS 6"
4)168gr Barnes TSX 59.0gr H 4831SC 2575FPS 0.720"

All bullets were loaded to 3.395" OAL. For loads 2&3 there were 2 shots within an inch, then one major flyer. Glad I shot the TSX, regained my faith in the rifle. All loads were very moderate pressures and I will try an additional 0.5 grain in each load for the next reloading/range session.

As I was doing more research on the 318WR, though it wasn't stated, the barrel length looked extremely long, like maybe 27". Was this a common barrel length on these rifle? This may account for some of the higher velocity.

If there are further suggestions, I will surely try them.

BigBullet

BigBullet,
Yes a lot of the English bolt rifles were fitted with 26" plus barrels and it was pre-chronograph days with some optimism in the claimed velocity. The first load at 1.4" and 2200fps sounds ready to go hunt!
Cheers...
Con

Also, some English guns had 28" barrels. 28" was a common length for double rifle barrels, and people wanted magazine rifles to match.

I agree that Load #1 sounds like the ticket. I think I used RL-22 in my loads. I'll check my notes tonight and let you know.

Okie John

Okie John,
The quote at the bottom of your messages is prophetic, my first centrefire was a 30/06 and after a 15 year absence from my gunsafe fiddling with bigbores, all I really want is another 30/06 firing a 180gr Partition at 2700fps... plain, simple and so effective!
Cheers...
Con

Con,

Yes I was quite pleased with the first load. It is more then suitable for big game hunting. I am also in agreement on the '06, it is such a versatle cartridge. Isn't Finn great, I have saved a few of his articles in my reloading book and always refer back to them.

My dilema is that I am going to take two rifle to RSA this August. The rifles I am working with are two 35 Whelens, 2 30-06s and a 338WM. So I have to choose the best 2. Not an easy choice for me. I am sure most folks would think I'm quite mad.

Okie John,
I would like to try your R-22 load very much. Please post it when you get a chance.

BigBullet

My mistake. The load was 54/H4831, back before H4831SC came along. My notes say it shot a 1.6" group at about 2,230 fps.

Keep up the good work with the 250-gr. bullets, but don't overlook the 220. I keep a 30-06 zeroed with 220s at 100 yards. Change to 180s and it's zeroed just past 200 yards. It's nice to be able to punch really heavy game up close then reach out with authority just by changing ammo.

The 220 is a sleeper. Even if you only get 2,400 fps out of it, you can zero for 175 yards and get a surprising amount of reach. It's the classic way to get the most out of a 30-06, and I'm surprised more people don't use it. When I go to Africa, I will probably take it.

Hope this helps.

Okie John

quote:

Originally posted by BigBullet:
NE450,

Thanks for the loads. I'm currently working with IMR 4350 and H4831SC. I go to the range tomorrow, and I'll see what type of results I get.

Con, I don't disagree with your statement about the intention of the '06, and not only is there no harm in trying, but I find it damn fun. BTW, I checked on the site you posted, I don't recognize any of the powders listed. Thanks for trying though.

The 318 WR earned a very good reputation as a medium bore in Africa plains game, shooting a 250 grain bullets to 2450 fps. With the Barnes bullets, I was attempting to reach similar results. "Cartridges of the World" says it can be done as does PO Ackley, but nothing of modern vintage, with modern powders indicates that 2400 fps is possible.

I can get to 2500 fps with 220 grain RN bullets, so probably 2300 fps is a good goal for the 250 grain bullets.

Anyone else with some suggestions?

BigBullet

I got some absolutely stellar velocities with 200 grain and heavier bullets using H 4831/SC in the 06. Accuracy was excellent also. The Australian ADI website listed above would list those loads as 2209 or 2217 SC I believe. ( just look for the SC letters).

2400 should be obtainable with the 250 grain bullet in the 30/06. I chronographed some old Speer 275 grain 338 bullets in my 338/06 at 2400 fps.

I'd recommend using H 4831 SC, RL 22, and trying Rl 25. IMR 7828 , H 1000 you can't get enough powder in the case to adequately get enough pressure to get any decent rate velocity.

The 250 grain may be just a 250 yd bullet, but how far out there do you really need in the real world. Everyone thinks nowadays we need a 400 yd load with 4000 ft lbs at the Muzzle to take a 90 lb blacktail deer.

cheers
seafire


cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by okie john:
My mistake. The load was 54/H4831, back before H4831SC came along. My notes say it shot a 1.6" group at about 2,230 fps.

Keep up the good work with the 250-gr. bullets, but don't overlook the 220. I keep a 30-06 zeroed with 220s at 100 yards. Change to 180s and it's zeroed just past 200 yards. It's nice to be able to punch really heavy game up close then reach out with authority just by changing ammo.

The 220 is a sleeper. Even if you only get 2,400 fps out of it, you can zero for 175 yards and get a surprising amount of reach. It's the classic way to get the most out of a 30-06, and I'm surprised more people don't use it. When I go to Africa, I will probably take it.

Hope this helps.

Okie John

John:

Too bad there are not many of us around that believe in the old 220 grainers. I always zero my 220 grain at 2400 fps loads, to be 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, and it will be dead on a 200 and minute of whitetail at 240 to 250 yds.

I shot a buck in Wisconsin once on opening morning at 225 yds, with this combo across a swamp. So I had to walk WAAAAY around to get to him and then had trouble finding him since there was no snow.

When I did find him, he had dropped at the shot.
Post mortum details, looked a little strange at first. IMpact behind the shoulder, dime sized hole entrance wound, dime sized hole exit wound.
Laying on the ground next to the exit would was three kernals of corn and a splat of blood about the size of a half dollar.

Field cleaning indicated between those two dime size entrance and exit wounds, that both of the lungs and the liver had been turned into what looked like a bowl of spaghetti and had been churned with chain saw. The esophagus was also cut in two, hence the corn on the ground.

Yeah guys can say those old 220 grain RN's are useless, but it reminds me of a quote from the bible 'forgive them father, as they know not what they do". Even a 180 grainer is not as effective on impact as the 220 grain RN.
"Tttthhhats my story and I'm st st sticken to it!"

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

I like the 220 gr bullets in the .30-06 also. I used 220 Woodleigh RN bullets in my .30-06 in South Africa in 2002 and had excellent results. And, contrary to what some may think, the 220's work just fine on the smaller game also. I've never hunted Deer with the 220's but they worked just fine on Impala and Bushbuck (both smaller than whitetail deer). I think the 220 gr bullets make a great bushveld/brush/woodlands load.

Here's something that I noticed that I thought I would share.

Using Federal factory ammo velocities as a basis of comparison:

.30-06 220 gr bullet
Muzzle Velocity: 2410 Sectional Density: .331

.416 Rigby 400 gr bullet
Muzzle Velocity: 2370 Sectional Density: .330

Very similar sectional densities at very similar muzzle velocities. That's why I think of my '06 loaded with 220's as my "big, little rifle". No, I'm not trying to say that the .30-06 matches the .416 Rigby for use on dangerous game. I'm just pointing out that the .30-06 with 220gr bullets has the same velocity and sectional density properties that work so well in the .416 Rigby. As N E 450 No2 said above, "Heavy weight, high SD and moderate velocity just plain works."

And, if you own a .416 Rigby (I do), then the .30-06 with 220's makes a great practice rifle. Assuming ballistic coefficients are close, then the trajectories will be very similar.


Limpopo Bushbuck taken along the Limpopo River
South Africa, 2002
.30-06 with 220 gr Woodleigh RN soft points loaded to 2460 fps (muzzle velocity).

-Bob F.

I never could get 220 grain bullets to shoot worth a darn in my 30-06. What rifle, or twist have you found to work?

Mikelravy,

My rifle is a Ruger M77 MkII with the standard 1-10" twist. I believe most .30-06's are made with a 1-10" twist although I believe some manufacturers have used a 1-12" twist. My load is 52.0 gr of IMR-4350, W-W cases with Winchester WLR (standard, not magnum) primers using either the 220gr Hornady RN or 220gr Woodleigh RN. If I do my part, this load will put them into 1.0 to 1.25 inches (100 yards). BTW: 52.0 grains of IMR-4350 was Jack O'Connor's recommended load with 220gr bullets.

Also, the .30-06 was originally designed for 220gr bullets when it first came out as the .30-03. The original .30-03 military load used a 220gr RN bullet just like the military load for the .30-40 Krag. When the change was made to a lighter 150gr spitzer bullet, resulting in the .30-06 desigantion, the 1-10" twist rate was retained.

-Bob F.

BFaucett,
Your photo is great, and what I'll be looking for this year in Limpopo province those darn bushbuck. Last year we chased them around the bush for the better part of 4 days, saw fresh sign everywhere, but did not see one hair of a bushbuck. Going back this year to try again. Your 220 Woodlieghs would be good medicine for those bushbuck. You took a very nice one.

I tried some 220 gr Hornandys today in my Mauser '06, but got verticle stringing with them. Will try my Remington with them to see if there is a differnce. In Limpopo Prvince, I can't imagine shots over 200 yards.

BigBullet

seafire,
When Geoff McDonald began making Woodleigh bullets he started with RN bullets because they were effective on game and regulated in the old doubles. Speaking to a friend of his a few years back, he told me that Geoff resisted bringing out the PP range as they were no more effective nor flatter shooting compared to the RN projectiles, over meaningful hunting ranges. Seems he also preferred that they opened faster but hung together because of the bonded core. Market demand however was too strong to resist, so the PP emerged. If I ever get myself back into a 30/06 I've strongly considered never soiling its barrel with anything lighter than 220gr.
Cheers...
Con

BigBullet,

Just a couple of more pics about how well the ol' 220gr bullets work.

My Warthog taken on my same trip to South Africa in 2002:


.30-06 with 220 gr Woodleigh RN soft points loaded to 2460 fps.

And the Warthog's heart back at the skinning shed:



I'd say the ol' 220gr Woodleigh did a pretty fair job!

Good luck on your Bushbuck quest!! I've only hunted them that one time but I really enjoyed it. I learned that I really like hunting Bushbuck. It's my favorite trophy from that trip.

-Bob F.

I tried the 250 Barnes in the 06 some many years ago, and the problem was that the bullets expanded at up to about 100 yards then they wouldn't open up beyond that..I use old surplus 4831 for near 2300....

I do like the Woodleigh and Nosler 220 gr. bullets at 2400 for about any big game animal..Those two bullets have proven to be excellent on everything I have shot with them...I like them even better in my 300 H&H at higher velocity...

Ray,
I can see what you are talking about concerning the 250 grain Barnes softpoint. There is very little exposed lead at the nose, and there must be a certain velocity required to get the nose to open effectivly. The 30 caliber magnums would most likely be a better fit. The fellow who passed them on to me, hunted grizzly in Alaska with them out of his '06. Only chance he had to shot was a finisher on his buddy's bear at about 15 yards. Penetrated both shoulder and out the other side.

I figure I would try them though for the fun of it. Have you heard of these 265 gr."Huffnail" bullets. Supposedly there was a custom bullet maker in Vermont where these came from. Lots of lead at the nose. Matter of fact, there is so much lead they tend to hang up when you try yo chamber one.

BFaucett,
That 220 grain Woodleigh has done some good work inside that pig, nice tushes.

I've got a bunch of 220 grain Hornandys I can try, any experience hunting with them?

BigBullet

BigBullet,

I don't have any experience hunting with the Hornady 220's. I used the 220 Hornadys (and some Sierra 220 RN) for working up loads and then switched to the Woodleighs. (Usual caveats about dropping the powder charge slightly and working back up when switching bullets.)

I did use the .375 300 gr Hornady RN Interlock in South Africa in 2000. I had them loaded to about 2480 fps. I had one come unglued on a Gemsbok. We chased that Gemsbok for 2 or 3 miles. Not fun. We did finally get him. At the skinning shed we found bullet fragments and a small piece of the base. That taught me a lesson about using good bullets. That's why I switched to the 220 Woodleighs in my .30-06 for my trip in 2002. The new Hornady Interbonds may work better as they are a bonded core bullet. Hornady is coming out with a .375 300 gr RN Interbond but I don't know if they have plans to bring out a 220 gr RN Interbond in .30 cal.

I do like using the 220 Hornady RN Interlocks for practice as they're less expensive than the Woodleighs. As I said, I haven't hunted with them, but I think they would probably work fine on the pigs and deer we have here in Texas. But, I don't think I'd use them in Africa. As Ray suggests, I think the 220 gr Woodleigh or Nosler would be a better choice when you're on an expensive hunt. Why take the chance?

BTW: I noticed that you mentioned in one of your posts above that you leave for South Africa in August. I leave August 21 out of Atlanta bound for RSA. What day are you leaving?

-Bob F.

BFaucett,

Leave for RSA on August 11. Your pictures are very prophetic in that I will be looking for a bushbuck and a nice warthog to nail. Last year we were hunting over a waterhole, late morning, and these warthogs came in, the PH said shoot the biggest one for the poitkie dinner, at the shoot the tracker came over and said "did you see the bushbuck" what bushbuck? "the one that was coming in to drink" So that was the closest I got to the bushbuck and we persued them fairly hard for the next 4 days.

I will be hunting in Limpopo province again, but a slightly different area that hopefully will hold some good bushbuck. Not that the other place didn't I just never saw one.

The only experince I have with Hornandys was with a 225 grain in a 338 WM. Did a good job on springbok in Namibia, but broke up on a quartering away shot on a kudu. Just found pieces of the lead and jacket.

So if I go with the 220's in the '06, I will shoot the Woodlieghs. I'm good with that.

BigBullet

BFaucett,
Can you shoot a picture of the recovered bullets and some specifics on the penetration and performance? I thought I had seen a few pics at one time of them.
Thank you.

Bob F... nice pic's! Also, it's great to see someone using a garden variety M77 (in 30-06 no less)... they're truly great hunting rifles! I gotta say, I don't "get" anything over 200 gr's in the 06' but it obviously wasn't a handicap to you!

Brad, once you hit something really BIG with the 30-06/220, you'll see why that's the classic way to take the 30-06 out of its class. If you use one cartridge for all non-dangerous game, the 220 is what sets the 30-06 apart. Lighter cartridges run with the 30-06 with lighter bullets, but when a brawl erupts and you're left with raking shots on big animals in thick cover, the 220 puts the 30-06 head and shoulders above them. It just flat gets the job done, and the Remington CoreLokt load is one of the cheapest on the shelf at about $13 a box.

Hard combo to beat.


Okie John

John, I've used the 06 a bit and have taken a couple of 6pt bull elk with it and the 180 Partition... a 180 TSX or Failsafe will out-penetrate a 220 of conventional design while flying flatter... hence my comment. Still, doesn't mean a guy shouldn't experiment as this is all fun n' games!

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:
BFaucett,
Can you shoot a picture of the recovered bullets and some specifics on the penetration and performance? I thought I had seen a few pics at one time of them.
Thank you.

smallfry,

The only bullet I was able to recover was from my Red Hartebeest. Here's the pic of that bullet:



My first shot on the Hartebeest was a pass through. I hit him a little too high and a little too far back on his right side as you can see in the photo below. He was just starting to run as a I fired. (My PH estimated the distance at about 120 yards.) He dropped to the first shot. He was down on the ground but lingering so I put a second finishing shot into him, from a distance of about 10 yards, when we got up to him. The recovered bullet is from the second, finishing shot. From the animal's left side, I aimed for the heart. The bullet center punched his upper leg bone (his legs were curled up under/beside him) and destroyed the heart. The bullet came to rest just under the skin on the opposite side.



I took five animals on my trip to South Africa in 2002 all using my Ruger M77 .30-06 with the 220 gr Woodleighs; Impala, Warthog, Steenbok, Bushbuck and Red Hartebeest. All shots were pass throughs except the finshing shot on the Hartebeest as described above. All were one shot kills except the Hartebeest.

Here's some pics of the other two animals taken on that trip:


Impala


Steenbok

Kudu was also on the agenda on that trip but I wasn't able to get one. Kudu was the reason I chose the 220 gr Woodleighs for my '06 as I wanted to have a heavy bullet with good sectional density for an animal that size.

-Bob F.

B. F.:

great pictures!

Yeah it proves my love for the 220 grainers and the RN type of bullets.

If you are looking for a longer range hard hitting set up, if you can live with a 200 grain bullet, I have chronographed that Speer 200 grain at 2850 fps out of a 1917 Enfield with the original 26 inch barrel. The load was 62 grains of H 4831 SC. In that rifle, my 1903 Springfield and my Model 70 ( 1999/2000 production), the loads have been intensely accurate. I have loaded the 200 grain up to 66 grains of H 4831 SC before I was noticing loosening primer pockets.

Cheers and good shooting
seafire



sorry guys, I posted the same info above earlier.
See what happens if one spends any time on the political forum.....