Factories won't load what won't sell volume and here in the US, most states have laws against using solids on Big Game. "expanding bullet of..." is the rule of the day most places if not all. I however do agree and have a few handloaded solids in the pouch for the 35 and 30's but have not found any for the 6.5 as of yet that I want to buy. I have used .338 solids and .308 solids on big game, they both were Barnes, 300 grain copper jacket original solids in the .338 and 220 Mono Barnes solids in the 30-06 and they kill very well. You really could not tell the difference in Internal damage to the Heart Lungs from the solids and the long heavy expanding bullets I normally used. The muscle and bone damage differed. I shot one north bound 600 pound critter right in the south, left ham to be exact, and the 300 grain Barnes Original Solid exited a the throat and there was a huge blood trail about 40 yards to a very dead critter. Same with the .308 solids on Deer sized critters. Any angle to reach the heart/lungs is fine and you will have two holes.

quote:

If the ammo in .318 Whestley Richards had been reliable I think he would have prefered it over the 7x57.

In an article that appeared in the American Rifleman in about 1954, Bell stated that he would consider the 308 WIN to be about the ideal cartridge for the sort of use he put the 7X57mm to. He attributed this to the short cartridge, and said if loaded with 4-diameter long bullets, it would be better than the 7X57mm for brain shots on elephant.

This article was written shortly before his death, and perhaps he was beliving his own myth by then.

Only on the Internet could WDM Bell be painted as "believing his own myth." There is no myth to be believed.
Whether you belive it or not, like it or not, agree with it or not, his statement on the 308 is consistant with his life experiences and writings over the course of same and thus completly logical.

Wow! Thanks for the post, fla3006. And for further input, gunsmithing.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Karomojo Safari in the Appendix titled Notes on Shooting Big Game. about 7th paragraph in. Page 281 in my reprint by Hillman Printers.
the shooting motion previously described is written in advice for the novice. I think it may be in one other place but one is enough I guess.
best regards,
dmw

The full quote should be read in context, and would have to include the previous paragraph, in which Bell was "warning against long-travel bolt actions" of "rifles using cartridges much too long for fast repeating action" and which could lead to short-stroking in moments of tension; "into this category fall the .350, .375, .425, and the .416"

"If someone is bound to one of these particular rifles, something can be done about it, but it takes a lot of practice. You must constantly handle your rifle, snapping it off at anything and everything, without cartridges of course. Each time you go through the reloading motion, shove the rifle away from you with the left hand as you draw the bolt with the right hand."

Karamojo Safari, Appendix, pp 280-281, London edition of 1949.

Bell was giving a tip on how one should handle a long-action rifle in order to prevent short-stroking. He did not approve of these rifles, and did not need to use this cumbersome technique on his .275 and other standard action rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
..In an article that appeared in the American Rifleman in about 1954, Bell stated that he would consider the 308 WIN to be about the ideal cartridge for the sort of use he put the 7X57mm to. He attributed this to the short cartridge, and said if loaded with 4-diameter long bullets, it would be better than the 7X57mm for brain shots on elephant.

This article was written shortly before his death, and perhaps he was beliving his own myth by then.

IIRC, Bell passed way in 1951 (maybe Gunsmith can clarify which month),
which could mean he wrote the article somewhere 1949-51?
the 308win was introduced to the public around September1952.
Id be interested to see an copy of the article.

Bell wrote about using a "caliber 308 250 grain about 2400 fps" A 308 win could never do that,about 1900 would be the tops with recommended pressures. And it is true,he died about August 1951, before the 308 was introduced.
Jeff Cooper wrote about the 308 win connection for many years, and finally changed his mind later, stating that Bell died before the Win was invented. He gave the upper quote,to clear the air. Bell liked the 30-06, as it could do the job, and would have liked the 300 Short Magnums, as they would give the performance, with an action of proper length.
The reason that the companies do not make FMJ bullets is because it is illegal in many states to hunt big game with them. I think this is bunk, but it stands in the books. I feel the real reason is the ability of FMJ bullets to defeat old and new ballistic armour. Remember that bullet proof vests were around in the 1920's. The police and gangters used them. I know Al Capone had one, and a bullet proof car,with bullet proof glass in it. Can't be too careful.
They passed these laws to keep the "eleite"safe from the "riff raff"of America.
Same as the machine gun act of the 1930's.

quote:

Though Bell used the 7x57 a lot, it seems likely that was more a matter of convenience than anything else. Remember, he had gunbearers with back up rifles a lot of the time. He also used the 6.5 Mannlicher and the .303 Brit a bit too, but I don't think he ever thought any of the three to be "better" than a good large bore slug in the right place.

Au contrare, Bell had little regard for what he termed "double-barreled big bores" as he called people who denigrated his use of smallbore rifles. He regarded them as carryovers from the black powder days, and thought their ideas were made obsolete by the smallbore nitro-loaded rifles like the 7X57mm and the 6.5mm.

Philip A.

Not to do anything than add value to the honor of talking about WDM Bell among like minded folks who admire him; I do believe that Bell did say of his double armed reloading action, that he used it on all his bolt action guns. In Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter, page 180 in the section about Rifles, he says: “Another point on favour of the .276 is the shortness of the motions required to reload. That is most important in thick stuff. If one develops the habit by constant practice of pushing the rifle forward with the left hand while the right hand pulls back the bolt and then vice versa draws the rifle towards one while closing it, the rapidity of fire becomes quite extraordinary.” Here he clearly says that using the .276 he employs this “double armed” motion to effect “rapidity of fire.”
He also goes on to say that sometimes with the “long cartridge” guns “necessitating long bolt movements” when “great speed is required” that one can have a problem and then relates a story about a .350 Mauser and a Rhino.
Best regards,
dmw

Bell liked short, easy handling rifles. The .303 automatic that Farqueson built for him is lying at the bottom of the indian ocean, but it weighed just 9lbs and fed from the regular 10rnd box magazine- It would be an interesting find.

I have a (very much) prised .22 mauser that Bell gave my father new in 1936- it still wins open sight matches....and was always my guide as to what a rifle should handle like.

quote:

.. He also goes on to say that sometimes with the “long cartridge” guns “necessitating long bolt movements” when “great speed is required” that one can have a problem and then relates a story about a .350 Mauser and a Rhino.

Bell, a man of such confidence,intelligence & extraordinary skill and experience,..
- tells us theres disadvantage in magnum length mausers, yet there are those on the net who tell us [and will insist] that action/bolt stroke length is not an issue....

Ive handled shouldered and cycled both an New Kurz shortMag and 300H&H magnum mauser,.... took me all of about 30 seconds to confidently decide what id rather carry and shoot fast with.

HartmannWeiss Kurz By Ralf Martini:

I have enjoyed reading Bell more than anyone else writing of Africa. It is clear to me anyway that he was a very special person, as well as lucky I suppose, but the facts of his life remain to say that he was very, very good with his rifles and very, very good at dealing with the natives. The honest respect he engendered in those folks stands alone me thinks.
Not wanting to start a debate here in the shadow of WDM Bell but: I have no doubt that IF I were allowed and had the chance to shoot all the game he did in anywhere close to the numbers, I would choose a "30 caliber with a Solid of 4 Calibers length" or about 220 grains in a Monolith, 250 in Steel and copper, shooting at "about 2400-2500" for my everyday gun. Yes I know all the facts on stopping rifles etc. Still if I had to provide 400 donkey saddles and bring back a couple of hundred tusks, dust off some pesky lions, "stupid" rhino's whom "barge about" and the odd stampeding Hippo, that is what I would choose to have in my hands everyday. A lean 30-06 with Irons, Ghost ring peep and post for me, that fed and shot slicker than goose grease. Dreams are still allowed yes?
best regards,
dmw

hi
i enjoy very much this discussion and karamajo's stories. i don't know how thick is an elefant's skull bone . but why not using a short rifle in 9,3x62 or 375 for this purpos both of these calibers preforming well in short barrel even ruger makes their alaskan 375 with short 21 inch barrel. hese calibers have better energy and killing power than 7x57 or 3006 for using on the other DGs like lion and buffs.and many companis are making nice fmj solids in both calibers like woodleigh and hornady dgs steel jacket.a 9,3x62 with 286 gr solid at 2300 fps woulden't kick a lot more than a 3006 with 220 at 2400-2500 fps.both 9,3 and 375 have been invented for hunting in africa and proven to be enough for the hunting over there,
regards
yes

Paper figures and so forth have no place in a discussion of penetration. As I said before, Penetration is a result of sectional density and velocity. The 9.3 is an excellent plains game,but as Taylor stated not a dangerous game cartridge. The Ruger round is excellent, but has no more penetration than Bells favorites. Always remember that if the bullet does not reach the vitals, you may as well have fired a 22 at the game,the results are exactly the same. One mad animal at the hairless ape that poked a hole in them.

DMW,

You're correct... Page 180 in the original edition as well.

You're right about his personality as well. I never drooled over his elephant count, but having lived here for close to twenty years, and living "off the land" - i.e. on my own business and not with a fat salary and the relative protection coming from an international organization or company or embassy or whatever - I do understand how few people get respect from the locals. And these are people who do respect the locals, but get to understand their mentality and to integrate with it.

Bell made friends with the Karimojongs by knocking them over the head and "arresting" their cattle when needed, not by acting like a silly sissy professing brotherly love and concern...

I love reading Bell, because if it were not for 100 years gap he's the kind of man with whom we'd definitely have shared some good time whenever our paths crossed.

Another character of standing is C. H. Stigand, killed in Southern Sudan in his 40's.

And I do agree with you with an everyday rifle having to be something that you can shoot fast and true everytime. Carry it from dawn to campfire day after day, use it for everything that comes your way, train and train and train, and know with your closed eyes where it shoots... No way you can get that proficient with a .800 TNT Express!

Ganyana,could you send me a picture of the Bell 22. It would be excellent for the book. He wrote in Records of Big Game that he used a 22 Hi-power Mauser on Cape Buffalo. I am wondering if it is the same gun. The book was written by Edgar N. Barclay who used letters from Bell considerably in the book. It is almost another Bell book on hunting.

gunsmithing
i know about the sectional density and penetration off cours with hardness and toughness has too a lot to do with penetration. both 286 grain in 9,3 x62 and 300 grain 375 have both sd över 0.300 like 175 grain in 7mm do. the only advantage av 7x57 is . it could be made in lighter gun due to the recoil and disadvantage is lack of power for lion or other predators. a loads of lion, buffalou and elefant has been killed by 9,3 and 375 and in many countries both calibers are legal for the big 5s.

The 9.3 x 62 Mauser is,according to Taylor, a fine choice for an all purpose cartridge. designed in 1905,it was a favorite cartridge of Deaf Banks, who used one for all occasions,except to follow up wounded elephants in thick brush. He had a 450-470 type for this occasion.The 375 is a wonderful round, and you will never hear me talk bad about it, though you must hold the gun right,on the hollow of the shoulder, and not on the arm like some like to do. It will beat the snot out of a tyro, but to a real shooter, it feels like a heavy 30-06 (at least to me).

I tried the method described by Bell in reloading the rifle, and cannot imagine a slower,more unsteady,method of firing a rifle. The butt comes off of the shoulder,and must be replaced in the same spot for accuracy, all the while trying to keep your eyes on the game. Good luck. I have seen a bolt action fired so quickly that the hand operating the bolt hit the expended cartridge on the way out, in its return stroke. I cannot picture a faster method of operating a rifle. ( the gun was a Mosin Nagant by the way, and he hit 5 bowling pins at 70 yards in less time than it takes to describe it. I did not time it, but it was keeping up with the semi's on the range) The rifle never left his shoulder.
That is what is needed on a dangerous game hunt with a bolt action rifle.

Gunsmithing,
My conclusion, or surmise, was that Bell had the grip of Superman, the reflexes of a Mamba, and his forward movement was slight. Combine that with his favorite light, well balanced rifles, it worked for him. Did not work for me either.
Best regards,
dmw

He states in Bell of Africa,that the forward motion was slight. I think it keeps one from short stroking the rifle, as Wally Tabor did in the video on his hunting Cape Buffalo. He double pumps a Weatherby, and for reasons unknown, did not get a terrible jam. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0A6XedTat4. Could have gotten him killed if he had a dead mans jam, especially with a push feed rifle like the Weatherby. And as to why he removed the rifle from his shoulder is a mystery to me. A person that craves adventure like Tabor, should have known how to shoot dangerous game.
A Mauser is always safer.A double rifle certain.

quote:

Originally posted by gunsmithing:
He states in Bell of Africa,that the forward motion was slight. I think it keeps one from short stroking the rifle, as Wally Tabor did in the video on his hunting Cape Buffalo. He double pumps a Weatherby, and for reasons unknown, did not get a terrible jam. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0A6XedTat4. Could have gotten him killed if he had a dead mans jam, especially with a push feed rifle like the Weatherby. And as to why he removed the rifle from his shoulder is a mystery to me. A person that craves adventure like Tabor, should have known how to shoot dangerous game.
A Mauser is always safer.A double rifle certain.

I wish they still had these TV shows and host like Wally Taber. As for that rifle being a weatherby, it is possible, but the bolt release on the left side cries Mauser. He didn't really double stroke, his hand slipped going for the bolt and he regrabbed and cycled, which would explain the lack of a jam. Something appeared odd, before he started shooting, it looked like someone had shot the buff on the back end to anchor it, check the grassy knoll on that one.

John

I noticed that it was dragging its behind in a strange way. His hand had already ejected the first round, I believe, and he fed another into the chamber, only to double pump it. You can see the round coming out of the chamber.
I wish also that shows like this were on regular T.V. They would not have a problem getting advertisers,and it would be one of the most popular shows on the tube.I would volunteer to be the host, as long as they paid my ammo, licencing fees,transportation,feed,tentage, and clothing. I could not ask for more

a picture that Bell made of Elephants. This was given to me by the people at Corriemoillie.
I believe they said it was at a neighbors house.
http://s46.photobucket.com/alb...ephantPainting-1.jpg

Many thought-provoking posts here. Not easy writing about a legend, is it?

Here's what I believe. First, Bell was a fine shot with confidence in himself and his firearm. Lots of fine shots from 25 yards, though.

Second, and MUCH more important, Bell knew everything that was important to know about elephant physiology. He knew EXACTLY where to shoot, and had the skill to do just that.

And that's how you kill 1000+ hefalumps.

Old WD was obviously an exception shot and could place his bullet with cool precision under circumstances that many of us could not. Pondoro Taylor commented in his book that Bell used one of the first 220 Swifts that came into Britain to kill a considerable number of red deer including stags, some at ranges of more than 300 yards. Bell stated that the 220 Swift was the finest and deadliest weapon he had ever used on such animals and far surpassed his beloved .275 Rigby Mauser. Taylor goes on to say "that if Bell reckons a small bore is worth its oats, thats good enough for me".

Most of us today do not regard the Swift as a suitable cartridge for deer sized animals, but then like Taylor, who are we mere mortals to question Bell.

Other good reads on the exploits of the .275 (7mm) Rigby are those of Jim Corbett's on hunting and dispatching maneating tigers and leopards (panthers) in early India. Brave man with no backup, just him and his gun. He did use a double 400 when expecting some close in shooting but many a time only had the 7mm in hand when having to put down a charge to prevent himself becoming another meal for the maneaters.

Those were the times of true grit hunting.

.