I have read on several forums that the M70 wil be produced again from either Japan, Portugal or South Carolina. So I guess no one really knows at this point. But IF it is produced again, what do you think the price range would have to be to make sure that sales would be balanced with quality? Do you think it could be produced to compete with the M700 & M77 price wise & still have the quality we desire, or do you think they will go upscale, sell for $1000+ and go for a smaller market share?

My local Wal-Mart still has them for sale, at $399

Sounds like wishful thinking by those who can not let go. The 70 is dead and gone. Let it go!

Let it go, in particular if you live in a state where you can't hunt with a rifle!! Of course you could drive to PA. The PA room is down the hall.

As to the question we are not sure if they will be made again or where. Suppose that a push feed could be sold at Walmart and if it were up to me I would reserve the CRF versions for upscale sales.

Forget the 700 competition. The Remmys are competition only if you think they are. Not that USARC was capable of thinking.

Olin's CEO and chairman of the board announced last fall that while they did NOT know who would be building 1894's and Model 70's yet, they did know which country they would be doing it in. This one.

As far as competition from the M700, how much longer do you think they will be making those? My crystal ball sees the 710, 798, and 799 in your future. Funny how rugger is saddled with a 100% Union workforce and still manages to turn out very good quality firearms at a workingman's price range...?

IMHO, their best chance for survival is building the old model 70 in three action lengths, for up to 2.3, up to 2.6" and up to 3.2" cartridge cases. CASES!! If they want an inexpensive PF rifle that's ok, but why double the number of actions you produce, and thus the SKU's? Build what people will pay $999.95 retail for and do it right!
Build one PF action, for the .223 family.

JMHO,

Rich
DRSS

If Ruger weren't subsidised by the US Govt, They just might be in trouble!

Rich, you gotta get over that union pitch man. No one is buying it.

lb,
consider me "...just the voice of a man, crying in the wilderness...". Let me know how things go when Hillary is elected in 2008 and we get socialized medicine. Besides, having the unions around is the only thing that keeps management from having to face the mirror and fix the blame.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

lb404,

not selling it, just "...the voice of a man, crying in the wilderness...".
Besides, if the unions go away, who will corporate America have to blame their woes on? How do the nurses at the hospitals where you operate get a pay raise?

regards,

Rich
DRSS

I would like to see model 70s produced as action or barreld actions.
I have herd runers that ER shaw is planning to build a model 70 clone.
can't find it on the web site though.
I like the model 70s.
can you explain to me how the US government is subsidizing Ruger ?
1st I herd of it. Thanks ...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Besides, if the unions go away, who will corporate America have to blame their woes on? How do the nurses at the hospitals where you operate get a pay raise?
regards,
Rich
DRSS

Making multiple action lenghts isn't going to happen, maybe two sizes, standard & magnum, too expensive. I would like to see them back. I have two, & probably won't buy another rifle, but the last M70 is a nice design that others like Kimber have copied & produced well.
BTW, nurses can get raises like every other non-union worker, go into the bosses office & demand one or quit & move on. I've been doing it for decades in the engineering field. You don't like what a guy pays you, demand more or move on. If you have skills this works, if you do not, you go work for the gov. or a union. I'm not saying there are not skilled guys working unions or the gov. but most of the skill people make it into the private sector & prosper doing it.

Fred,

the majority of the population does not have the financial freedom (or the job skills or the desire)to pick up and move for a better job every 5-10 years. The "Majority American Dream" revolves around finishing high school, finding a decent paying job, marrying your HS honey and buying a house...raise your kids, retire after 40 years at the same company), and have some freedom to travel the US a little. WE are not talking college graduates, just HS. They form a union so that someone with equivalent negotiating skills can deal with the company every 3-4 years, and they go about their work quietly. You go and demand a raise or you walk...but most average people can't take that risk.

Rich
DRSS

FN offers the Patrol Bolt Rifle or something named close to that that is a M70 action. They'll be made but probably in limited numbers and at a higher cost. But why bother?

There are others that produce a useful rifle that is of at least as high of quality. The only M70 I own I'm not particularily impressed with. Nate

Rich, I tried but could not resist responding about this Union issue; with all due respect, did you meet your high-school sweetheart by catching her eye across a vast field of daisies, whereupon you then ran into each other's arms while being serenaded by the Sound of Music?? this is no less idealistic than your version of the modern American labor union. I own a construction co in the SF Bay Area, we were union for 40 years but went non-union about 10 year ago, the reason being that unions only exist to perpetuate the power ($$$$) of their management. Our local union would enter into job-agreements with our non-union competitors on private work with union general contractors, effectively eliminating our "union" advantage... As long as the trust fund still gets the fringes, the union couldn't have given a *&^% less about our workers, their "union members"... I buy only American made vehicles, both Fords and Chevys, but have you compared either with a Toyota (non-union) lately?? The UAW is only 1 example, although possibly the most glaring, of the problems with modern unions; there are something like 12,000 United Auto Workers that get paid to stay home or to otherwise not work, resulting from the latest round of negotiations between the UAW and the US Auto manufacturers. That kind of inefficiency and lack of productivity is rampant in large sectors of the Union workforce today. I agree with the concept of a labor union, particularly when they began in the 20's and 30's, to provide some equity between employers and employees, but today's reality is very different...

Sorry about highjacking this thread and I'm off my soapbox....

PS- the Clintons/Schumers/Boxers/Feinsteins/Kennedys/Gephardts/Obamas/Pelosis/and Bidens of the world are all huge union-backers; that in and of itself is reason to wonder, in my book

Regards,
Craig Nolan

SHOT SHOW response: Deal with Union workers, shut down plant building '94 and M70's, CANNOT build again for 2 years from plant shut down. SO, it HAS to be in 08 before we can see a M70 from ANY country/mfg from the source at Winchester booth.

I DO expect them to be made again, there is a demand and someone will fill it. My guess would be Japan. That is my guess......we will see. Wait a year and ask the ? again.

Hello,
Dealer friend of mine attended recent very large distributor/dealer mtng. and spokesperson for FN claims that the mfg. of the M70 or 94 not even on the "radar scope" or being discussed at this time. Far many other items to tend to at this time as in anticipated war materials/weapons. FN makes a variety of weaponry for users all over the globe.
Like it or not, Remington, Ruger, Savage pretty much own the sporting rifle market in the U.S. Not good data to present to the executive committee and asking for funding based on speculation and that "gee, they really like the pre '64 Model 70..." and "Win. 94 great deer rifle..." That is only talk and not suffecient to start up an assembly line.
If you review the sales no's of Remington and Ruger centerfire rifles over the past few years , it dwarfs those of Winchester in model for model comparison.
I have a few pre 64 Model 70's and they sit in the cabinet and use the Rugers for hunting and the Remington for serious long range match work. Perhaps my grand children will realize some value out of those Winchsters.

If ya want a model 70, buy a Kimber.

IME a Kimber ain't a M70.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Besides, if the unions go away, who will corporate America have to blame their woes on?
Rich

The majority of corporate America doesn't blame their woes on anyone. If they don't have a union to deal with then they are probably making money and hiring more people. Fewer and fewer companies have union employees. Unless you're talking about government jobs. The demise of the M70 was in part the high price of the union workforce. I'm not picking on anyone here it's just fact. None of this is the fault of the workers. All the blame is shared by management and the union bosses.

Yea, the Kimber ain't a model 70; I much rather have a Kimber!

quote:

Originally posted by Beartrack:
Yea, the Kimber ain't a model 70; I much rather have a Kimber!

to each his own. Based on the Kimbers and the M70's I've bought, you are more than welcome to all the Kimbers.

Well, I say Win like Rem has gone the pendulum with Quality control issues at times, heard AND owned a few disappointing late model Winchesters, but I think quality beat Remington. Rem has more brand recognition in my opinion with rifles, which is partially due to a long history of accurate rifles, and let me clarify, immediately upon M70 push feed replacing the pre-64- the real ones, the public never accepted it, later the new claw models sold and customers returned, but quality was not what it were wished to be by die hard Win users, who knew the quality of OLD pre-64 guns.

Rem, kept the original design and quality was pretty good from what I know until the 90's and it truly went to crap in my opinion, since then, some things may have improved, but I quit buying Rems as they LOST me as a customer.

I would definitely buy a Winchester if it were quality, and a good value, regardless of where it was mfg. and I would do it in a heartbeat over the Rem....

That said, SHAW is making a M70 design later this year, spec order as you want for 800-1000 online. Also, I think Kimber represents a good effort for a rifle of good value in a Win type action. I see little to knock on Kimber quality from what I can tell. Light guns are not always the easiest to coax max accuracy from the bench, and they were never designed to do that job. Finish good, triggers very good, and attention/effort seems to be made to please shooters, or fix what needs fixing to make them happy. Glad to see Kimber doing what they do.

Ruger in my opinion has improved over time, barrel's inhouse and much more consistent gun to gun than years ago. Solid hunting rifles in my estimation.

People buy value and people also seek quality. Browning sells lots of guns for 2 reasons, snob appeal, and good consistent quality. Never seen a bad shooting browning, but the design does not appeal to me, allow receivers, etc, but I have to admit, my abolt micro medallion shot right along with my Rem. Varmint both in 708, go figure, light barrel hanging with Bull barrel...impressed me.

Heck, if the old FN mausers were built today, at Rem and Win prices, it would be hard to not buy one. Simple, reliable, well built, and gets the job done.

Gunmaker,
you need to read the Wall Street Journal and Forbes Magazine. The story about Ford rewarding their NA CEO with a nine-million dollar bonus for holding 2006 operating losses to under fifteen-billion (14.9 if you are a stickler for numbers). Fifteen F***ing BILLION!!!! DOLLARS. They lost just under $2000 dollars average, on every vehicle they sold last year. Over 1/3 of those vehicles were made in Mexico, where their total labor costs (wages) per exployee were under $3 per hour. Ain't no union to blame there. If employees feel a company is treating them fairly, there is no need for a union. No matter how much of a giveback unions deal, companies still operate at a loss..."on paper". Corporate American created the concept of HMO's to "get a handle on rising medical costs". It's just another bureaucratic layer between the doctor and his patients. They aren't helping! Companies are exporting non-union jobs overseas faster than they did the manufacturing traditionally union ones. WE offer NOTHING to the world today!

research...

Rich
DRSS

A wise man would have been buying them for 40yrs and have a sizeable pile by now.

I did see a full page ad in the WSJ this year showing the new union label. It was a picture of an empty factory chained shut "closed" courtesy of the union LEADERS.

Not the workers.

The workers need to tell their "leaders" to GET A JOB AND DO SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE.

That would save some US jobs. Like the M70 we're suppposed to be discussing.

I'm intrigued about the subsidies given to Ruger - I thought their main source if income was from specialist investment casting...

Anyhoo... indulge me a little while I outline my experience as a union member...

In the mid '70's I was a trades assistant on a mining site - my job was to hand the tools to the tradesman, and put them back into teh tool box when he'd finished using them... I was NOT permitted to actually use the tools. My other reason for being was as a safety person - if we were in an enclosed space, my job was to drag the trady out if the space became toxic (given that we were both in the same space, I fail to understand the logic behind this...)

As it happens, I was 'caught' using an oxy torch to help the guys out... demarcation dispute!!

General strike - all out!!

None of the 'workers' voted for it, it was done by the union rep.

Now it gets interesting - we were all earning about $400 per week after tax (at the time, the average weekly wage in Oz was about $120 per week). So we told the Union to get well and truly f*cked....

Nope, they closed the mine, and stopped us from working... and then put in an ambit claim for an extra $100 per week, plus other benefits.

Guess what!! The mine shut down, and we lost our jobs...

I have a great deal of respect for what unions have achieved over the years, but 18th Century thinking doesn't work in the 21st century.

The global economy is too dynamic.

Anyone who believes that the 'jobs for life' model still exists, had better have a good superannuation plan...

I gotta jump in on this union thing.
Here in Oregon the biggist unions are the public employee unions.
Especially the teachers.
Our extreemy left leaning state government is constantly kissing ass to the state employee unions trying to increase the numbers of union voters creating an ever expanding vicios cycle. I just got my w 2s
I earned just a shade under 60 grand as a non union truck driver. I banked about 8 grand for retirment. So with a taxable of about 52 grand I paid just under 20 grand in in income taxes. I will get about 2 grand back.
Most of the 6 and a half grand that I paid in State income taxes will got to our public employee pension fund , witch is nearly bankrupt anyway , while 2 brand new jails we built sit empty , for lack of funds.
Of coure we also pay property taxes fuel taxes taxes on cigeretts(I don't smoke)booz tax, tax on our phone bill gas heating bill electric bill phone bill and I am sure a few more I can,t name.
Ford Might go under beacuse of Pension and medical insurance costs.
If you are blue color and want more wages, we need to dry up the glut of unskilled laborers(illeagel alians)fewer workers mean the rest of us are more valuable.
Learn a skill that pays, sell your skill on the open market. If your skill loses value learn another one ! Don't look to the government the union or anbody else, your future is your responsibility work hard and save ... tj3006 By the way anybody know a rich widow I can marry ?

Sorry about the length but TJ, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. I've been telling people for 20years that the public employee shoe was going to drop, but when it does it will be a really big boot in our collective assess instead. Here in Kalif. the State police & prison guys get 90% of a very fat paycheck to retire after 25years. Plus medical, then they hire more people to replace them after only 25years? It's pretty easy to do the math & in the next 10 years, many state, county & city gov. will be broke w/o alot more add'l. taxes on all of us.

Idaho, I'm not sure what century you have grown up in but the work-at-the-same plant-for-40 years-and-retire, was gone along time ago. I'm one of those middleclass guys, grew up in a small town, HS grad. some college but no degree. I do fine in this rathole of Kalif. buy working my ass off & not taking crap off bad employers. I have changed companies several times, even had my own consulting bus. for awhile. I have three boys in college & I tell them the two most important things going forward; have a plan & get a skill people are willing to pay you for & then be flexible. Todays economy isn't what it was like in my fathers day. Sure, large companies pay their CEOs outragious money to do, what I believe, very little for the guys below them that make their money for them, but also look at the long term employee debt that Ford, GM, the airlines, etc. have taken on. Add that same type of debt to all of the 1Ms of gov. jobs & it's an economic disaster waiting to happen. Me, I have a 401K & pay my own ins. That's how ALL employees in this country should work IMO.

Union employees don't go about their work quietly. They squeeze their companies &/or their state/county/cities for ever more & more money & benefits & then produce less & less each year. Before you fly off the handle & call me a union basher, I worked 1 year for the City of Phoenix, saw how that worked. I also worked 2 years for the steel workers union, saw how that worked. They are all the same, big or small, public or private. Unions, or even large corporations, are a place for the less then skilled/motivated people to hang out & collect a check & retire on our private sector dime for 20-30 years. Eventually it will all come crashing down because the weight of the private/public unions is being born on the backs of small private business & the common people.

I agree completely w/ TJ. Don't get a job, get a skill. I've been in the engineering business for 30years & have had to adapt, change, modify & learn new skills to stay above the next guy. I'm good at what I do & that makes me valuable to my employer. If you want more money, you go ask for it. If the employer is smart, he gives it to you because you make him even more money & he knows that. The down side, I have to be on my game every day. I slack for a week & I am likely out of a job. I often joke w/ my teacher & LEO buddies about them not having real jobs because they can't be fired for poor performance, they just don't get promoted.
Stay w/ your dream Idaho, but a dream is not a plan & life has a way of changing while you make plans. You need to change with life, good or bad. Good luck & bring back the M70!!

Amen to that Fred......telling my sons to get specialized, one pursuing dental school, A student in college, other years behind, never want them to rely on Corporate America, but to be so specialized they are independent/self employed professional occupation, such a competitive world and so many jobs exported, and products imported.....our future is at risk and teacher pay is no incentive for our best talent to choose this most important career that will shape and mold our future country.

Every upcoming student/worker has to take responsibility and accountability for their success by getting the most education that can be had.....you can never learn too much.

Ok, back on task.....

6,5, I don't know about your area, but teachers here make pretty good money & benefits for working 8-9mos a year. Some places here are paying 60K to start! That's pretty good jack. I keep telling my one son to get his teach creds. after engineering school incase he needs to change careers someday. Every school needs high level math teachers.
Idaho, sorry if I am coming off harsh on this issue, but I've lived both sides of it & feel people & our country are moving in the wrong direction, socialism/unionism, it's all about the same. Everyone gets paid the same but no one is accountable for quality of their work (ie, postal service, fire & police, Caltrans, etc,. etc.)

the problem is...there are a finite number of skilled jobs to go around, and those jobs revolve around on and depend upon, a skilled labor force. Only a manufacturing business employs the large number of American workers necessary to keep America growing.
The answer you espouse: get a college degree and be a specialist...but we need one of those people for each what, one hundred skilled workers in a plant.

Example: my buddy Jeff got his degree in engineering in Kalif and went to work for General Dynamics. Moved to HP about twelve years ago, and transferred to Boise, Idaho about two years later. He's a code-slinger, and spends about two months total a year in China. The engineers there are chinese, and they are being taught the same job Jeff has here; so in time they will not only build printers there, they will design them and write the software there as well. In 8-10 years 90% of the engineering jobs will have been exported.

Today, it takes a married couple a combined income of $60,000 per year and a couple years each on the job to qualify for a home loan to buy a $100,000 house, with 10% down. For the next thirty years one of their monthly take homes is required to make the house payment. What happens if the job either of them has goes overseas?

Don't just yap at me, tell me what the new model is for America in the 21st century? The solution you all are postulating with college and vital skills is a recipe for disaster. It reminds me of the story of three young Jewish men on a cruise ship being shipwrecked...Gilligan's Island. They are rescued ten years later and have all three become millionaires by buying each others' clothing and reselling it. The only problem was, that when they returned to the US they all had such tremendous debt structure that they had to file for bankruptcy and their only assets were worn out ten year old clothes and IOU's.

Contractors only make money building houses because there are not a dozen contractors bidding on each house to be built. Lawyers make money litigating cases because there are not a dozen lawyers bidding to represent each litigant. Doctors make money treating patients because there are not a dozen doctors for every sick person out there. Engineers and other highly-skilled professionals make good money because each company does not have 100 applicants for each job opening in their company...yet. Ever been to a job interview and found a dozen other applicants already in the waiting room ahead of you and had a 15 minute time frame to make the case for why they should hire you?

A college degree is only valuable for two reasons:
1. less than 30% of high school graduates can get into college, and only 50% (max) of the freshman class
graduates.
2. not many people are competing for those finite jobs. If everybody went to college and everybody graduated.
the job glut would force those currently good paying jobs down to minimum wage...
A great joke here in Idaho concerns the competition between Boise State, and the University of Idaho.
"...what did the UofI graduate say to the BSU graduate? Want ketchup or fry sauce for them french fries?".

Technical skills are only valuable to develop new products for the mfg sector to build and sell. The mfg sector is disappearing. Name the last three manufacturing businesses to start up in your local area?

Give me the answer, don't restate the obvious problem.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

Hey Idaho, I gave you an answer & recipe for success. Read it again, I never once said anything about a college degree. I urge my boys to go to college to have another tool in their box for success, not a ticket to it. No, rather get a skill, brick laying is a skill, electrician is a skill, plumbing is a skill. None of those need college degrees & all pay well in most locations across the US. Working at Walmart or Safeway, while important jobs, require little skill & can be done by people w/o a high school education. They deserve little more than min. wage & if you get union pay & benefits for that kind of work, count your blessings & move forward.
We are all competing for jobs in the global economy. It is what it is. You have to adapt or parish, survival of the fit. Instead of crying about the way it used to be, stand up to the challenge & move forward. There are no easy solutions except maybe winning the lottery or a lawsuit against one of those big companies you seem to dislike. I have learned over my 50 years two things that you can not get around; Life is difficult & life is not fair. I have picked myself up many times when things turn to complete crap. I'm still here & reasonably succesfull (whatever that realy means). If I can do it, believe me anyone can.
Every time I feel sorry for myself I just have to look around & say, :hey my life isn't so bad". I have rarely looked & the fatcats & said "that's" just not fair". It's not fair that I don't look like Brad Pitt, but such is life. Move on man, make your life what YOU want. Don't rely on others to do it for you.

I still have my Teamster card (Local #745). I keep it as a reminder to be self-sufficient.

Hey Fred, I live in LA, as in the south, where we not only rank at the bottom, just above perhaps MS and MAYBE AR, so the students rank low overall, and on top of that, the teachers pay is about the lowest ranking also....correlation.....poor education vs nation= poor teacher pay.....seems like we need to invest more into our future like Tx and other states.

If you looked at how many engineers India and China are putting out vs USA, it is ALARMING.

Agree with much that has been said, not wanting nor intended to get a flame started....great points about life, and our struggles in this journey...... now does anyone want a M70?

Hey,

I'm 57, happily married, got a good church, and my house is paid off. None of the things I discussed concern me, personally. I'm already semi-retired, and two bullets I collected in the SE Asian War Games in 1971 put me at 80% disability rating at the VA. All of my medical is free and our total debt structure is less than 1/3 of my wife and I's yearly take home. I'm just worried about the nation...my future is secure. A depression ten times as bad as the one in the '30's won't worry me a tinker's damn.

"...just the voice of a man, crying in the wilderness...".

regards,

Rich
DRSS

Hey Rich, some time on my trips to Montana I wouldn't mind a stop & buy you a beer my friend. Thank you for your service.

Losing American jobs to over seas countries is not just a Union issue. It happens constantly and probably more so in non union companies. Particularly in the IT arena. This is exactly why I am now a full time stockmaker running my own business. I worked in IT for 17 years. Thought I had a "job for life". Over seas labor is cheaper by about 2/3rds and I have to admit the education of my over seas co-workers was VERY good.

I could be extremely bitter about this but life goes on. I have encouraged my sons to learn a trade that requires hands on presence. Something that couldnt possibly be sent over seas. Like carpentry, plumbing, electrician etc, etc. That is the best advice I thought I could give them. You cant install a bathroom sink via sattelite link up from India.

quote:

Like carpentry, plumbing, electrician etc, etc.

Bill, soon all these jobs will be given to illegal aliens!

Only if there aren't other people doing the work. Every plumber, elec. I have hired has been a local, english speaking guy. Unfortunately, general construction has gone this route mostly on money, but also because there are fewer people here legally in the USA that want to work a 9hr day in the great outdoors doing manual labor.
No JOB, is safe, few career positions are safe. It's dog eat dog, always has been, probably always will be unless we all turn into gov. employees or we go communist. It's capitalisms baby,you have to be one step ahead of your company/boss if you want to thrive. If you want to just get bye, stay even w/ your employer & that's ok too, but get behind the curve, look out brother, they will be onto the next guy/gal that can make them money regardless of your situation. That's what makes our system both great & a curse. Face it, your only limitations are you. What's the Army motto' "Be all you can be"!.

Rich, I never said anything about a college degree nor do I build homes, I'm only merely stating that there are a multitude of jobs out there for which a good income can be made, without the "benefit" of being union. Only 12% of the American workforce is unionized, and that number gets smaller with each passing day, and, contrary to popular belief, it's not primarily due to illegals (although we have a *&^%load of them here in Ca). The Teacher's union here in Ca has absolutely destroyed the education system here, with help from the willing accomplices in the state gov; Teachers here make between $40 - $80 k per year, working 9-10 mos, but they want to be paid like Doctors but have permanent job security (which they have with tenure) like a gov employee... My rant is over, and thank you for your service to our Country back in the early 70's....

Regards,
Craig Nolan

Yo Fred,

drive thru the Boise area? I'm 20 miles west just off the freeway. PM me a day or two ahead of time, and we'll get together.

Thanks for the compliments about my service to my country. It was my privilege and honor to serve, and I would not have missed it for the world! Knowing how things shake out, I would still go and serve. Prouder than ever to be an American Veteran, and prouder than ever of my country...just concerned for the shape of things to come.
Y'all take care out there...


Rich
RVN Veteran
DRSS