WHAT A BEAUTY!!! roger

Gun makers art at its finest.

I'll likely be flamed for this but this rifle leaves me stone cold if not somewhat disturbed by its almost vulgarity !

Whilst workmanship is excellent the rifle overall appearance is disturbing in that it is a mixture of style that in my opinion offends.

It appears that whoever commissioned this piece asked for every known style feature to be added and then to throw it together to come up with a gumbo of flavours that do not gel into a classic dish at all !

The basis of this rifle is MS but then it goes off the rails. Perhaps i'm too hung up on what the originals look and feel like to warm to this rendition. Original Pre WW 2 MS sporters were delightfully slim and racy. This looks overweight and very "Belgian" in style

A Austrian with a Belgian FN undertone ?

Bolt handle : Ornate spoon ending in a ball ?
Barrel: ? What is this a Euro Battue ( driven hunt ) Rifle ? with a too long quarter rib and battue type sight on a 270 ?

Then a barrel band hanging somewhere in the forequarter.

The stock.... looking past the character of the wood the stock dimension is out of place for MS. Traditionally they were slim and racy whilst this stock is a tad to heavy in the rear for the caliber As I have said you have a Austrian rifle with a Belgian ( FN Style) stock

Perhaps its the scope size for the style of rifle that's odd...... I don't know

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ALF:
I'll likely be flamed for this but this rifle leaves me stone cold if not somewhat disturbed by its almost vulgarity !/QUOTE]
You were right. roger

The description mentions that the rifle was built to the order of a big German industrialist. He could have added a big industrialist lacking in taste.

This rifle looks as though the maker added every extra he could think of in order to milk the absolute maximum from his client,
who evidently thought that the value of a possession is measured by the cost.

The bubbly description includes what would have to be a unique feature, if it were indeed accurately described: it claims the barrel is hexagonal to round instead of the usual octagonal to round. The photographs show otherwise.

It also claims that the rifle was never used, which is one more indication, if any were needed, that the owner was only interested in an expensive object to brag about.

The only reason I can think of for the choice of caliber must have been that .270 was the original caliber of the rifle, and the gunmaker did not want to risk tampering with the feeding, which, as in all Mannlicher Schoenauers, is caliber sensitive.

I wonder if the owner even has a hunting license.

Noticeably missing from the description is the weight of the rifle, which must be substantial, since the stock would do credit to a varmint rifle from the mid '50's.

Whoever buys the rifle will have the satisfaction of being able to brag about what he paid for it. I can't imagine anyone actually hunting with it.

The sole purpose of a rifle is to please its owner.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
The sole purpose of a rifle is to please its owner.

And the choir sings "AMEN AMEN"
Some folks are just greatly artistocratic. Tell me that word don't paint a picture.
I'll bet that some of this discussion's critics think Picasso was a fine artist+*+* NOT.
roger

BINGO!

Glad to see the issue of Art was brought up !

As anyone will know there is "good art" and there is "bad art" and one could ask what distinguishes good from bad art.

For one what makes a Picasso a Picasso ... the signature ? nope not so much it is a very particular style within a genre of art. Every one of the masters and those who are of an era distinct in their own right.

And this is my point !

The criticism lies not with the workmanship or the skill of the artisan whole built that rifle but with the style or rather admixture of styles that was chosen for this piece.

As I have said before there is gun style ! It is very distinct ! One can see at a glance where guns originate from in terms of their influence just as one can from appraising art !

A keen eye can spot makes of guns or styles of guns from across a room or gun counter without even looking at the inscriptions and marks. Some are very distinct some less so ! if you look at Micheal Petrovs's fine book on American gunmakers you see a distinct "American style" very different from say Austrian ( Ferlach as example very strong in flavour) or Italian, Spanish or those that hail from Suhl

If ever one is so fortunate to seek these out and I have have one can see why they are so distinct !

It's all in the eye of the beholder.
There are sophisticates who adversely critique and there are those that observe and get pleasure from the same object.
I see nothing wrong with old masters.I can observe and appreciate their fine work ( most of them )But When I see a Kinkade I truly feel warmth. That rifle ,to me, is a gun makers Kinkade. A really gorgeous piece of art and I had pleasure looking at it.
My enjoyment vs an other's distaste.

roger

If some one gave it to me I would gladly place it in the safe next to my semi custom stainless sty stocked Ruger MKII.

Where both would live happily ever after

I just thought they were an advanced device for throwing man made rocks

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
It's all in the eye of the beholder.
There are sophisticates who adversely critique and there are those that observe and get pleasure from the same object.
I see nothing wrong with old masters.I can observe and appreciate their fine work ( most of them )But When I see a Kinkade I truly feel warmth. That rifle ,to me, is a gun makers Kinkade. A really gorgeous piece of art and I had pleasure looking at it.
My enjoyment vs an other's distaste.

roger

A “gun makers Kinkade”...how right you are. Here’s one of Thomas Kinkade’s finer works:

of course there is also the silliness of my "art" is cooler than your "art" that is many times driven by it must be "cooler" because I spent more money on it.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I'll likely be flamed for this but this rifle leaves me stone cold if not somewhat disturbed by its almost vulgarity !

Whilst workmanship is excellent the rifle overall appearance is disturbing in that it is a mixture of style that in my opinion offends.

It appears that whoever commissioned this piece asked for every known style feature to be added and then to throw it together to come up with a gumbo of flavours that do not gel into a classic dish at all !

The basis of this rifle is MS but then it goes off the rails. Perhaps i'm too hung up on what the originals look and feel like to warm to this rendition. Original Pre WW 2 MS sporters were delightfully slim and racy. This looks overweight and very "Belgian" in style

A Austrian with a Belgian FN undertone ?

Bolt handle : Ornate spoon ending in a ball ?
Barrel: ? What is this a Euro Battue ( driven hunt ) Rifle ? with a too long quarter rib and battue type sight on a 270 ?

Then a barrel band hanging somewhere in the forequarter.

The stock.... looking past the character of the wood the stock dimension is out of place for MS. Traditionally they were slim and racy whilst this stock is a tad to heavy in the rear for the caliber As I have said you have a Austrian rifle with a Belgian ( FN Style) stock

Perhaps its the scope size for the style of rifle that's odd...... I don't know

+1, certainly not my cup of tea.

Guns, knives, swords, spears... every arm known to man first and foremost designed for use but then something higher ! A symbol of power and as such from the earliest times men adorned their weapons. The higher the users status the more ornate the adornment so that one got a point where functionality was overtaken by symbolism ! Any visit to a museum exhibiting guns through the ages show this.

The Maasai spear an example of this loss of functionality in lieu of symbolism. A young Maasai Moran would carry a spear with a long functional blade. As they became elders in the tribe the blades became shorter until the spear was basically a symbol of status and no longer a tool to hunt with.

The same can be seen with military ornamental swords and daggers.

Kings and Princes had guns and weapons made and gifted to them that were ornate to a point of being jewelry.

Weapons posses style developed by culture and by timeline so that it is possible to identify them to a type and period, Some distinctive and unique and some less so.

One could argue that it would be difficult for anyone not to place a Bowie knife ( as style) or a Colt single action as uniquely American.

Or say perhaps a Persian "Jezail " or Camel flintlock uniquely typical for the region where Lawrence of Arabia operated.

Even the American plains indians adorned their new found arms to a typical style so that when one sees examples in Museums in the USA one can identify them as such.

The concept of Style appropriation or style integration is not new. It has been practiced by the worlds foremost fine gun makers. The key though lies in doing it in a manner that is tasteful and "natural" ( There is a fine line between a "wow" and kitsch ! )

Arguably the best Example of this can be found in the gun that fetched the highest price ever at auction in the USA. Some 650,000 US dollars with about 4000 man hours invested in it's making.

This honour goes to Mr Peter Hofer of Ferlach and his scaled down miniature double rifle aptly named "The Hummingbird" !

This rifle is a "style integrated gun" breaking with the typical Ferlach style and crossing over to the British double sidelock but with a Hofer designed side lever action.

I had the pleasure of personally meeting with Mr Hofer and actually handling the gun in question

But that not at issue.

What is at issue is that guns though for most tools designed to a purpose are actually distinct to style. Whether we acknowledge it or not. Style exists and thus if it exists then integrating style can be pleasing or conversely it can be disturbing to the senses. Its like colour it either can be complimentary or it can clash.. Sometimes clashing can give pleasing results but for the most it feels unnatural.

ALF, thanks for the explanations of style , art etc. I started in museums during my earliest days especially the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC.
But even the roughest military equipment involves style and decorating ones rifle is an old habit . I even took my early Benelli shotgun , all black plastic stock, and engraved the stock to stop the dumb comments from those who had fancy engraved doubles !

The length of time a society engages in a practice does not mean the practice has merit, it often means the psyche and related behaviors of mankind simply haven't changed.

Inferiority complexes and feelings of inadequacy manifest themselves in many ways including the adornment of tools, vehicles, and other utilitarian devices as well as conspicuous consumption.

It is not uncommon that the personal attribute one wishes to communicate via their possessions, is the attribute that the person lacks.

During my days as a management consultant, I did a project for a national retailer of casual clothes and had to endure a two hour discussion of the merits of fashion and style between two competing product lines; "mental masturbation" would be an apt description of the discussion.

Mental masturbation ?

yes is that not what AR or any platform o f this nature is about ?

As to Inferiority complexes ... are you then claiming the Gunmakers of note who share pictures of their finely made and adorned rifles suffer from inferiority complexes ?

So if this is a irritation then why visit here at all ? we can all just sit on our own and amuse ourselves without sharing of information ?

The mental masturbation refers to "arguments" over X style has more merit than Y style. Not all discussions on AR are mental masturbation.

My comments are certainly not attributed to the gunmaker, they refer to a certain percentage of the buyers.

Sharing of information is always valuable but commentary or "argument" that essentially state "X style is better than Y style" or "X style is pure and Y style is not and therefore X is better" when better is simply one's taste are not an irritant, they are simply silly.

That is one beautiful rifle in a correct caliber!