Ladies and Gentlemen:

I did a bit of research on this forum, concerning the Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets in 7mm and .308 caliber. Bobby Tomek's experimentation, showing poor expansion with impact velocities below 2000 fps caught my attention.

What failures if any have you experienced with these bullets in 7mm and/or .308 caliber?

I am building two rifles for general medium game hunting, a 7x57 AI and a 30-06 AI. I will be shooting 140 through 175 grain 7mm bullets and 165 through 200 grain .308 bullets for antelope through elk. These rifles will be used for medium weight Africa plains game, too.

Additionally, if you have any experience with the Barnes TSX or TTSX in .358 caliber, I'd like your opinions, too, when used on moose, brown bear and/or the larger Africa plains game. I'm building a 35 Whelen AI for those game animals.

Furthermore, in your experience how do the Barnes TSX and TTSX stack up against a Nosler partition when used on antelope through elk and/or Africa plains game from small antelope up to eland?

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

stick with nosler partitions, and half your problems will be over, the momo bullets are not all there made out to be, they generally run at a higher pressure than a lead core bullet for a given velocity, not that its a big issue, the issue is you never know when there not going to expand, there was a great thread on 24/HR camp fire a while ago with actual photos of recovered mono bullets from game animals shot which did not expand they ranged from 22 cal tsx to 338 cal proj....these bullets were recovered from antelope, grizzley, moose etx
As far as penetration goes the mono bullets only penetrate marginally more than the partitions, i have tried this in various media...
but in the end the choice is yours

We kill a lot of animals with TSX's and have had zero failures. If you are shooting long ranges, beyond 500 yards, then yes get a cup and core. In normal hunting ranges you will have no problems with the TSX. I have personally seen 250+ animals shot with the TSX ranging in calibers from 5.56 70gr to 338WM 225gr with great results, 100% function. Animals species include elk, auodad, nilgai, whitetail, hogs, mule deer, oryx, etc... They all died under 100% bullet function.

Not to discredit anyones findings, not sighting anyone imparticular, but most of the people who have had failures have been a result of twist rate or not paying attention to velocity ranges. Within the TSX's working envelope they are fine bullets.


Perry

PERRY
just go to 24 HR CAMPFIRE and bring the thread up on mono bullet failures, it just reinforced my results with mono proj, it just seems you dont know if the bullet will expand or not, and the recovered bullets were not shot @ long range
I think BRAD who posts here @ times , mentioned to me he had a 150ttsx not expand from a 30 cal
We have shot wombats where the mono bullet has had complete penetration, then dug the bullet out from the dirt bank behind the wombat, and the barnes bullet was not expanded and banana shaped
Just because the animal falls, or goes a short distance does not always means the bullet has performed as designed

i have shot a lot of game with the tsx in 7mm and 30 caliber and i can't say i have not had a failure as i usually can find the bullets as the give full penetration. I will say i have also shot alot in the same calibers with nosler partitions and ballistic tips and while not always exiting they killed everything so i think they performed perfectly. I have recoverd some tsx from animals and all were picture perfect with petals back as there adds show. i did shoot a large caliber tsx through a small tree and into the animal and did not expand properly but i should not have hit a tree.i shot a jackal from 30 yards with a 180 grain tsx and thought from all the talk i would have a full mount but when hit the jackal imploded and was not even near mountable.

My 2 cents:

I recently shot my first deer with a TSX, and it resulted in my first tracking job in 20 years.

Rifle was a custom 12 twist, 27" barrel, 300 Win. seated to almost 3.600", with a lot of H4831, and a 150 gr. TSX. I set this up for long range, but then ended up shooting a deer at 36 yards square in the lungs. Deer ran over 100 yards as if not hit! Entrance and exit were little red dots (I have pictures to prove!).

Maybe I over-sped them at short range (and the petals blew off), but still, I know a Partition or Interbond would have flop-dropped that deer (as they always do).

quote:

Rifle was a custom 12 twist, 27" barrel, 300 Win. seated to almost 3.600", with a lot of H4831, and a 150 gr. TSX. I set this up for long range, but then ended up shooting a deer at 36 yards square in the lungs. Deer ran over 100 yards as if not hit! Entrance and exit were little red dots (I have pictures to prove!).

And that is why I do not use Barnes bullets.

They are like any other bullet in that you still have to hit an animal in the right place. I've shot a bunch of game with .308 and .284 X, XLC, TSX, and TTSX. I've had a couple of animals run more than I would have expected. One was shot too high through the lungs and the other too far rearward in the lungs. I've had similar experience with lead core bullets. Center punch the lungs, take out the arteries above the heart, or the heart itself and it's over pretty quickly.

A bullet that has the capability to break a shoulder going in and a hip going out or vice versa is a beautiful thing.

Thank you for your replies.

My only Barnes experience was with the old "X" bullet in .277, and it was not good.

Reasonable 270 Winchester handloads were over pressurized, the bullets coppered the bore like crazy and accuracy was a joke.

It appears that the TSX and TTSX are an improvement.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

I have killed a lot of game with the Barnes TSX in .30 and above calibers mostly out of my 35 Whelen and the 225grain bullet. With that 225gr bullet I have taken maybe 30 head of African plains game including eland, gemsbok and zebra. I am extremely happy with that combo. Below .30 caliber I use Nosler Partitions or Accubonds. if I am using the smaller bore, I will naturally be hunting smaller beasts, therefore the tough Barnes bullets are not required for the deeper penetration and wieght retention that they are known for.

Why is it that we think one bullet will handle all sorts of game from three different bores? If we are reloading why not pick the bullet appropiate to the designated use of the rifle?

A 225 gr TSX from my 35 Whelen after passing through both shoulders of a moose at 150 yards. Muzzle velocity was 2700 fps.

I just returned less than 2 weeks ago from a PG hunt, in which I used the 180 gr Barnes TSX handloaded in front of IMR7828 in a 300 Win Mag travelling about 2815 fps. Of the six animals I took, including 2 kudu, all were one shot kills with the exception of a blesbok which dropped to a Texas heart shot breaking the spine but needed a finisher. The only animal that made it farther than about 15-20 yards was the first kudu which made it about 100 yards from the shot. He was hit back a bit in a quartering towards position, which I got the front lung and liver. Shot distance was 168 yards. The longest shot was on a black wildebeest at 271 yards, complete pass thru on the shoulder breaking the offside shoulder on exit. We even found where the bullet hit a rock after it's job was complete. This is the first set of animals I've ever shot with a Barnes bullet and I was quite impressed with them.

I tried to get the 180 gr Partitions to work in this same gun, but couldn't get them to group.

I use the 140 gr Partitions in my 7mm-08.

tsx/ttsx no failures

partition no failures

I continue to use Barnes X in a number of rifles, these being a 30.06 and a 9.3x62.

The 30.06 handles the 165X boat tail well, groups MOA and average 2965 fps. Interestingly I've taken a number of deer with this load and got classic Barnes X performance. In a work great penetration and a decent wound.

Sadly, this is the only load I've ever lost an animal with.....a fallow buck hit twice at 220 yards. I saw the second round strike and the deer flinch. Looked good through the scope and I expected an easy tracking job to collect the delicious venison.

Guide and I spent 2 hours looking, found some blood, some hair but no deer. We came back with a dog the second day but couldn't find the deer.

The 250 Barnes X in the 9.3x62 is doing about 2600 fps and has poleaxed everything I've pointed it at. Do the Barnes expand....not sure, the wounds suggest they are, but I've never been able to recover one, no matter what angle I've shot my critter at. You figure it out, they seem to work well.

I've used the TSX and TTSX on elk in my 338WM and 35 Whelen. I am so happy with the results that I will now use only TSX or TTSX for all of my hunting bullets.

RigbyUser,

would you mind sharing your 9.3x62 250 grain Barnes X reload data with a muzzle velocity of 2600 fps? I am very interested. Thank you for providing the load data and I cannot wait!

I know alot of guys swear by them but i dont care for them. They just dont seem to expand like a lead bullet and in my experince just dont put down game as well, especially at long range. Lots use them to allow using a lighter then normal caliber on larger then normal game but rather then use a 270 with 130 grain barnes bullets for something like elk or moose i prefer to use something like a 300 mag using 180 or 200 grain standard cup and core bullets. If i need more power i use more gun not a fancy bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Norseman:
RigbyUser,

would you mind sharing your 9.3x62 250 grain Barnes X with a muzzle velocity of 2600 fps? I am very interested. Thank you for providing the load data and I cannot wait!

I get 2640 fps out of a 24" barrel using VV-N550 with the old standard 250 gr X bullet. Worked like a champ in Africa in 2002. When I run out of X's I will go to the TSX. I use the TSX exclusively on game larger than deer and the rifle will be my 338-06, 35 Whelen or 9.3x62. That said, I am working up a load with the 225 gr Accubond for my 338-06 for a spring grizzly hunt. Just gotta fix what ain't broke...

Boxhead,

how many grains of VV-N550 did you use for your reloads to achieve 2640fps out of your 9.3x62 Mauser using Barnes-X 250 grains bullets.

What brand of brass?
Did the brass show any presure sign's?
Have you obtained these velocity using other bullet brands beside Barnes?

Have used nothing but Barnes for the past 10 years. Used on elk, deer, bushbuck, zebra, red deer, fallow deer, warthog, impala, I could go on and on. All in 308 cal in velocities from RUM (3400fps) to 308 Win (2500fps). The TSX is very accurate and I have never experienced anything that could in any way be construed as a bullet failure.

More TTSX failures...

Why are these failures?? They appear damm close to perfect.

The only real concern I have on on TSXs is that they have a tendancy to tumble ( producing the unexpanded bananna shape) when hitting a rib or shoulder/leg bone at a slight angle.
The tumbling bullet creates a lethal, large wound channel, and usually won't exit.

quote:

Originally posted by The Derek:
More TTSX failures...

These are obviously failures because they were recovered. Any decent bullet would have exited the animal leaving an open wound channel to bleed and aid in tracking. Instead these probably killed the animal right there and thus limited the hunter's fun.

I've killed only 26 African game animals with my 8x57 and the 200 gr. TSX. Animals ranging in size from Jackal to Eland. All were cleanly taken. No "failures."

Like 450/400 posted, I've killed only 18 African game animals with my 375 Ultra mag and the 270 gr. and 300 gr. TSX bullets. Animals ranging in size from Jackal to Buffalo. All were cleanly taken. No "failures."

Shots varied from 30 yds on my Eland to 348 yds on a Gemsbok. Most were one shot kills, with the
animals rarely going over 50 yds after being shot. The bullets completely passed through the animals the size of the Nyala and smaller. The Jackal and Steenbok were just about blown apart from the 270 gr TSX bullets.

Last January, I hunted some "exotics" in West Texas with my .300 Wby shooting 168 gr TSX bullets. Blackbuck, Scimitar Horned Oryx, and Aoudad, all broadside, on the shoulder one shot, pass through kills at 100-150 yds. No "failures."

I'm not into taking pictures of bullet wounds, nor do I spend a lot of time trying to find bullets in animals. I did, however, recover these three TSX bullets in Africa. The 270 gr TSX bullet that lost one petal entered the front of the left shoulder of a Kudu and stopped under the skin on the side of the right ham.

I think that threads of this nature seem to have taken over the 'my Nosler Ballistic Tip blew up' threads. It is clear that TSX's TTSX's fail to open and pencil through sometimes, just like it is clear that NBT's have blown up at entry on ocassion. IME the TSX's have failed more often than NBT's, and I have shot a lot more game with NBT's, so the failure rate % for the TSX bullets has been higher for me.

I did a thread a long time ago here on AR where I showed (and several posters had similar experience) that the tips of TSX'swere often ocluded with copper, and IMO cause sporatic performance at best. This was more common in 30 and smaller calibers. I still like and shoot TSX's and TTSX's, but I also know that there is a possibillity of failure--in most applications I am defaulting to the Nosler Accubond, because I feel it is more 'traditional' and is not going to be prone to failure to expand as a TSX type bullet can.....

To each there own, one thing I feel is not common knowledge is the 'perfromance envelopes'--perhaps the mfgs. should be more forthcoming with this data, such as posting it on the box of bullets or ammo--might help someone make a decision on what/when/how the would use a bullet.

two moose and 3 black bear have fallen to my 300 RUM with the 168gr TSX. I havne't found a critter that woudl stop one of these bullets yet. I shot one moose with over 5 foot of penentration, entered in the rump and exited out the brisket. I have always noted obvious expansion and excellent pentration. I did find one petal from a 250gr .452 caliber barnes muzzle loader bullet this year, 70 yard broke shoulder and exited out far rib. I doubt that I wille ver hoot any other bullet than TSX, except maybe TTSX.

I have also found tips 'blocked' by copper, what I do now is take a small needle and insert it in the tips, if there is any obstruction the bullet goes in my "dont use" box. I usually get 2-3 out of each box I choose not to use. Im thinking they can be fixed with a small drill bit but I havent bothered trying yet.

I got a box of 168gr TTSXs for my 18" 308 (it's moderated) for my forthcoming moose hunt. I believe Bobby's testing and I can't see how going up 0.62mm in diameter removes the danger of limited expansion. As the barrel is so short and MV will be down I elected to use 180gr partitions which have the added bonus of being usable on the practice range (monometals are banned)

180gr partition at 2,430fps - good moose medicine inside 150yards?

Ive never heard of mono's being banned at a range before, whats the logic there?

180 partitions could bounce off moose, you might need 200's!