Greetings from OZ...I have been pondering once again whether or not I should add another boomstick to my collection. I already have a 308 Win BDL DM and 7mm Rem Mag Sendero, both of which shoot pretty well.I have started doing some long range hunting with both and have had excellent results. I was considering adding a larger calibre to the collection but am undecided. I am thinking 300 Win Mag, 338 Win Mag,338 Lapua Mag or 338 Edge? The main game I will be hunting is medium sized game (Feral Goats, Medium - Large deer),at distances of 500-700m. I am not sure any of these will be any more effective than my 7mm Rem Mag, but I'd like to hear other views ???

shame you don't live closer. I have a Voere Titan II in 300 WM. 26" barrel and double set triggers you could try out. It would be the perfect next step.

Rich

It is a shame, Idaho is quite a distance from Sydney, Australia. Voere isn't that popular a brand here, is that German or some other European origin?

quote:

..The main game I will be hunting is medium sized game (Feral Goats, Medium - Large deer),at distances of 500-700m ...

someone should be along soon to tell you that they don't consider that hunting...

seven, how big are your "large deer" in Australia?

quote:

Originally posted by sevenmil:
Voere isn't that popular a brand here, is that German or some other European origin?

There are both Voeres from Austria and Germany. The company has undergone several permutations. I believe the current manufacturing location is in Kufstein, Austria.

- mike

Just a personal preference but I'd go 300 WM or 338 Lapua and skip the 338 WM. It's a great round (338 WM) but if 600-700 meters is the plan I'd like to stay above 3000 fps.

If Sambar are on the list I would pick the 338 Win mag with 225gn bullets, but try to get within 300 yards.

I agree with tiggertate.

For shooting at those sorts of ranges you need a cartridge with a flat trajectory. If you look at trajectories of representative loads for the 7mm Mag, .308, 300 WinMag, and 338 WinMag the answer becomes clear. The 300 WinMag and 7mmMag trajectories are nearly identical and the 338 Win Mag trajectory is nearly the same as the .308 trajectory. With a 200yd zero, the 338 WinMag and .308 will fall about 20" more at 600yards than the 300 Win Mag and the 7mm Mag.

Also, the 300 magnum gives up nothing to the 338 when it comes to long range retained energy. The 338 Mag starts off with more energy than the 300 Mag but around 250 yards they both have about the same energy and at 600-700 yards the 300 will have retained 200-300ft lbs more energy than the 338.

If you want "more" for shooting within 250 yards then the 338 is the answer. But if you want "more" much beyond 250 yards, especially 600 yards and further, then the 300 Magnum is the answer.

If you must use a .338 caliber for 600 yard shooting then the 340 Weatherby and 338 Lapua are much better choices than .338 Winchester Magnum.

My favorite 300 is the 300H&H.

The 300 Win Mag has "issues" with bullets over 180 grains in weight and with "long for calibre" bullets such as Nosler's partition, Swift's A-Frame or any copper alloy bullets or any VLD (Very Low Drag) style hunting bullet.

This is because with its size they cannot be seated much out of the case. So are seated back into the case causing loss of usuable powder space AND concerns that there is not enough parallel sided part of the bullet then gripped by the case neck.

So if you then only consider bullets of 180 grains weight (which for your stated quarry are ideal) it becomes apparent that in fact a 7mm Rem Mag with a 175 grain bullet is the better choice.

With its better ballistic co-efficient it is more suitable for those longer 500-700 metre ranges and so will shoot flatter and give more leeway if your range estimation is less than absolutely "spot on".

A fast .284" 175 grain bullet (3,070fps in a 7mm Weatherby Magnum) will shoot flatter than an equally fast .308" 180 grain bullet at 3,140fps.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
The 300 Win Mag has "issues" with bullets over 180 grains in weight and with "long for calibre" bullets such as Nosler's partition, Swift's A-Frame or any copper alloy bullets or any VLD (Very Low Drag) style hunting bullet.

This is because with its size they cannot be seated much out of the case. So are seated back into the case causing loss of usuable powder space AND concerns that there is not enough parallel sided part of the bullet then gripped by the case neck.

If you are referring to the "infamous short neck" of the .300 Win case, then I have personally never found this to be a problem. In fact I think, in practical terms, this is largely a myth. For me seating depth has always been dictated by mag length and/or length of freebore - even with longish bullets such as 200 grs NPs and TSX. I never had any issues with deficient neck tension on any of these bullets.

I have no issues with you preferring the 7mm Mag over the .300 Win Mag - both are very flat shooting cartridges. But I think it would be sad ruling out the .300 based on a reloading myth.

- mike

Short magazine box can be a real issue, I think. I built one 300 Win Mag on a Sako L61R to avoid that very problem. I can seat VLDs anywhere I want them and still feed from the H&H length box.

quote:

Originally posted by mho:

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
The 300 Win Mag has "issues" with bullets over 180 grains in weight and with "long for calibre" bullets such as Nosler's partition, Swift's A-Frame or any copper alloy bullets or any VLD (Very Low Drag) style hunting bullet.

This is because with its size they cannot be seated much out of the case. So are seated back into the case causing loss of usuable powder space AND concerns that there is not enough parallel sided part of the bullet then gripped by the case neck.

If you are referring to the "infamous short neck" of the .300 Win case, then I have personally never found this to be a problem. In fact I think, in practical terms, this is largely a myth. For me seating depth has always been dictated by mag length and/or length of freebore - even with longish bullets such as 200 grs NPs and TSX. I never had any issues with deficient neck tension on any of these bullets.

I have no issues with you preferring the 7mm Mag over the .300 Win Mag - both are very flat shooting cartridges. But I think it would be sad ruling out the .300 based on a reloading myth.

- mike

Mike: I think enfieldspares is referring to the many .300 Winchesters built on actions with .30-06 length magazines. In actions with "full length" magazines of around 3.6" like the Rem 700, Sako, and others, the .300 Win has no problem with long or heavy bullets. In my Sako I seat 180 Accubonds out to around 3.5", and am working on a load for the 200 grain Accubonds which may utilize all of the magazine length, provided the chamber leade is sufficient. As a matter of fact, compared to the venerable .300 H&H, the .300 Win handles long bullets better, given the same length magazine.

Agree on the mag length issue. When I was shooting .300 Win Mags in M70s I usually had the standard (blocked) mag box replaced with one sized for .300 Wby/.375 H&H. That worked better - although it was a bit of a hassle with bolt stop and ejector also having to be replaced.

- mike

I've shot the .338 Lapua with muzzle brake only on one occasion and was totally impressed at it's long range capability and its surprisingly lack of recoil.Were I younger and had a desire for long range shooting this would probably be my choice. roger

If you are going to shoot at those distances and subscribe like me to the "flatter is better" philosophy, you might consider a 300RUM. You can buy one cheap off the rack and mine does less than MOA with 180's chronoed at 3400fps on top of a pile of RL25.

I would like a 300 RUM in that case too, but it may be a little hard to locate and feed in Oz.

quote:

Mike: I think enfieldspares is referring to the many .300 Winchesters built on actions with .30-06 length magazines. In actions with "full length" magazines of around 3.6" like the Rem 700, Sako, and others, the .300 Win has no problem with long or heavy bullets.

Yes. I could have explained it better. Seen a lot of 300 Win Mag on a 30-06 length "chassis" with that problem that seem really only to be usable with 150 grain bullets!

I am more than happy with my 8x68S...

M

thanks all - the state in which I live (NSW)pretty much limits the max calibre to 300 Win Mag at most rifle ranges, so for practicality a 300WM is probably best. Two questions I have are does a 300 WM have a tendancy to burn barrels and cause major throat erosion? And secondly do you guys think there is much difference in retained energy at 500-700m compared to the 7mm Rem Mag. The reason I ask, if there is no real difference between the two, I may as well move up to the 338 Lapua.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Just a personal preference but I'd go 300 WM or 338 Lapua and skip the 338 WM. It's a great round (338 WM) but if 600-700 meters is the plan I'd like to stay above 3000 fps.

This. But im voting for 408 cheytac, 50 bmg, and 338 lapua. I dont know many people who shoot regulary or hunt game often at 500-700m

You can do it yourself on the Remington website for 7mm RM with 175 grain VS 300 WM with 180 grain using their "Make Comparison" button:

CALIBRE 7mm RM 300 WM
100 VEL 2440fps 2482fps
100 ENG 2718ft/lbs 2945ft/lbs

200 VEL 2244fps 2262fps
200 ENG 2313ft/lbs 2463ft/lbs

300 VEL 2057fps 2052fps
300 ENG 1956ft/lbs 2044ft/lbs

400 VEL 1879fps 1856fps
400 ENG 1644ft/lbs 1683ft/lbs

On trajectory if zeroed at 200 YARDS drop is at 300 YARDS 7mm RM -7.6" 300 WM -7.4" at 400 YARDS 7mm RM -22.1" 300 WM -21.3" with 500 YARDS being 7mm RM -44.8" 300 WM -43.7"

Thanks enfield spares, doesn't seem to be much in it. Maybe it has to be 338 Lapua Mag.
Bulglemintoday 500-700m certainly are long shots, but this type of shooting is becoming popular especially in the US as I understand.
Over the past 2-3 years I have been starting to shoot at around 400 -500m regularly and have surprsingly been quite successful on game with mostly one shot. This was with my sporter 308 Win Remington BDL DM using 125gn balisitic tips. It is a bloody accurate gun and shoots consistent 0.3-0.5 MOA. Moving up to 500-700m may stretch the knockdwon power on medium game hence the use of the 7mm or bigger.

I'd maybe look at some of the "exotics" such as the fast Weatherby cartridges in appropriate 26" barrel lengths? The possible advantage is that you may get a secondhand one cheap from an owner who found it too powerful for their needs!

You have to compare apples with apples. There are many 180gr 300WinMag loads available with high ballistic coefficients. For example, Federal lists a 180gr Trophy Bonded Tip with a BC of .500 and a 180gr Nosler Accubond with a BC of .507. Using bullets like those, the 300WinMag will generally maintain a 300-400ftlbs energy advantage at 300yds and 200-300ftlbs energy advantage at 600yds when compared to the 7mm WinMag firing comparable 160gr and 175gr premium bullets.

Where the hell are you going to find LARGER deer (sambar maybe escapee wapiti )at 500-700 yds .and why would you even consider shooting at them from that far,got a name for blokes like you down our way.

sambar02 I'd suggest you take a chill pill. I actually said Feral Goats and Larger Deer. The type of country I shoot on requires longer shots, so if you haven't got anything positive to add, then DONT bother responding, we don't need to hear agressive comments like that.

I too have a word for blokes like you !

quote:

The 300 Win Mag has "issues" with bullets over 180 grains in weight and with "long for calibre" bullets such as Nosler's partition, Swift's A-Frame or any copper alloy bullets or any VLD (Very Low Drag) style hunting bullet.

I must disagree. My .300 WM is very accurate with 210gr Berger VLD's (0.5 MOA and better). It's built on a Sako M995 and can feed the from the mag which is long enough, not that this matters to most long range hunters who shoot their rifles like single shots.

I
d just suggest a 1 in 10" twist for LR bullets, although a 1 in 12" should work up to 180gr. I like a 26" barrel for a bit more velocity. I think that the 300WM does give you more than the 7mm Rem Mag. Run the numbers in a external ballistics calculator to help your decision.

I agree that the 338 Win Mag, whilst great (and I just bought one) is not the same thing at long range. The big 338's with 300gr high BC bullets are in a class of their own, however.

Whether you need more than a 300 WM for what you are planning seems unlikely. You could even buy something like a Sako TRG and pretty much be good to go almost instantly. I think most factory rifles are not really up to 500-700m hunting, the TRG is an exception. With some work you will probably get most to work fine.

quote:

Originally posted by ARWL:

quote:

The 300 Win Mag has "issues" with bullets over 180 grains in weight and with "long for calibre" bullets such as Nosler's partition, Swift's A-Frame or any copper alloy bullets or any VLD (Very Low Drag) style hunting bullet.

I must disagree. My .300 WM is very accurate with 210gr Berger VLD's (0.5 MOA and better). It's built on a Sako M995 and can feed the from the mag which is long enough, not that this matters to most long range hunters who shoot their rifles like single shots.

I
d just suggest a 1 in 10" twist for LR bullets, although a 1 in 12" should work up to 180gr. I like a 26" barrel for a bit more velocity. I think that the 300WM does give you more than the 7mm Rem Mag. Run the numbers in a external ballistics calculator to help your decision.

I agree that the 338 Win Mag, whilst great (and I just bought one) is not the same thing at long range. The big 338's with 300gr high BC bullets are in a class of their own, however.

Whether you need more than a 300 WM for what you are planning seems unlikely. You could even buy something like a Sako TRG and pretty much be good to go almost instantly. I think most factory rifles are not really up to 500-700m hunting, the TRG is an exception. With some work you will probably get most to work fine.

My Tikka T3 shoots 180 and 200 grain NP's and A-Frames sub MOA.

If you really really really have to shoot out to 600m, then your best bet would be to get a 30/378 Weatherby, and use an efficient boattail bullet like the Nosler Accubond. However I still think there is way too much risk of wounding at that distance, even with a flat shooting rifle and an efficient bullet, you still only need a little wind to put it of course, and it is very difficult to estimate the drift.

thanks 338User. 600m whilst a long shot for most, isn't that out of the question for full bore shooters who regularly shoot at distances to 800-1000m. Reading the wind is part of the process. If you look at the long range section on this website,there are plenty of guys taking game confidently at those ranges. Mind you they are using appropriate calibres that are ethical and capable of taking down an animals cleanly, hence my forum question

If you have the skill to read the wind, and the confidence to take a long shot like that then go for it. Aside from one of Lazerroni's specials (read expensive) the 30/378 Weatherby will be your best bet. The 180gn Nosler Accubond has a BC of 0.507, and you can push it out at 3450fps. With a zero at 400yards it is 6.8 inches high at 200 and only 26.5 inches low at 600. That is pretty impressive performance. Next year I am planning to get into long range target shooting, so learning to read the wind is one of the skills I will need to master. It should be fun. However I still prefer to get in under 300yards, that is as far as I am confident to shoot. Maybe that will change in time.

Thanks 338user. I'll look at that calibre. I too am still learning too shoot at long distances, but I have had quite a few successes with my 308 win at around 400-500m. Just want to challenge myself a bit more..

I would go with the .300WM of your list...

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
You can do it yourself on the Remington website for 7mm RM with 175 grain VS 300 WM with 180 grain using their "Make Comparison" button:

CALIBRE 7mm RM 300 WM
100 VEL 2440fps 2482fps
100 ENG 2718ft/lbs 2945ft/lbs

200 VEL 2244fps 2262fps
200 ENG 2313ft/lbs 2463ft/lbs

300 VEL 2057fps 2052fps
300 ENG 1956ft/lbs 2044ft/lbs

400 VEL 1879fps 1856fps
400 ENG 1644ft/lbs 1683ft/lbs

On trajectory if zeroed at 200 YARDS drop is at 300 YARDS 7mm RM -7.6" 300 WM -7.4" at 400 YARDS 7mm RM -22.1" 300 WM -21.3" with 500 YARDS being 7mm RM -44.8" 300 WM -43.7"

Generic bullet comparisons like that serve a purpose but in this case I don't think its specific enough. First of all, a 180 .308 bullet designed for the 300 WM is usually somewhat blunt to settle the short magazine issue. Second, an apples to apples bullet comparison would be 175 to 200-210. When you get into that weight .308 bullets the advantage tips to the 300 WM by a larger margin.

Having said all that, the 7 Mag is certainly enough gun for the purpose in its own right. Especiall if you choose an action that lets you long-load the bullets in the same fashion. Then there is the 7 STW. That is a fine long range option that avoids some of the recoil issues of the heavies.

338user might have just hit the nail on the head. The 30-378 Wby is certainly up to the challenge. If your not shooting hundreds of rounds a year the barrel life should be reasonable for you. If your are prefering a 338 caliber any of the more overbore chamberings will work, simply find the one that's easier to find factory ammo or reloading components for.

With the 338 caliber cartridges very high BC bullets are readily available from 250 grains up to 300 grains. They'll have a lot of energy left at those ranges. For the 30 cal you can find high BC bullets from 190 grains to 230 grains. A properly built (for long range) 300 WM using the 230 grain Bergers will reach out that far and still have reasonable energy for smaller to maybe medium sized game.

My preference for longer ranges is my 338-378 Wby but the ammo and brass are not cheap. I currently use the 265 grain Barnes LRX bullets with 119 - 120 grains of US869. A 26 inch barrel is lending 2900 - 3000 fps. So far the accuracy load for this rifle is roughly 2930 - 2950.

Which ever you choose make sure you can afford to feed it easy and often enough to practice at longer ranges. When you're out past 300ish yds/meters the wind and everything else starts to really come into play and practice is the only way to get good.

Ken....

And again I say why not the 300 RUM? Oh that's right, my 180's are going 50fps slower
Betcha can find and feed a RUM one helluva lot cheaper!

At that range why not use a cartridge that was designed to shoot that far. The 50 BMG.
Leo

338-378 weatherby it takes names and kicks butts.I have shot under an inch at 300 yards with mine.I have 12 338 wm 3 338-378s .Its for long range for larger game.I like the 338 wm out to 500 yards with good bullets but it draops way too much after that.Go to longrangehunting.com they know the answers betyer than these guys.I love my 338-378s .Weatherby is coming out with a 338 lapua .I like my accumarks better than any rifle made in the 338-378 for long range big game!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
I agree with tiggertate.



My favorite 300 is the 300H&H.

I still kick myself for not building one! I need to find one someday......This would be my choice.