Okay guys, who gets the recommendation for building a 318WR, on a Model 70 receiver I'm thinking. Probably wanting to rebarrell and restock a 35 Whelen. Talk to me, please!

.

Gulf Breeze has one on a Dakota 76 action by Al Lind for $17,995....so much for bastards!
Actually, I was just looking into this same matter. 318 WR brass is easily made by necking down 35 Whelen, then trimming to length. Dies are available from Buffalo Bore for about $82, and Woodleigh makes .330 bullets in both soft and solid configuration. Cool caliber...like a 35 Whelen or 338-06, but with lots of tradition and history...go for it!

Well, this bastard will see the game fields of Africa with his steel and walnut bastard in tow...

I'm not into paying $5k+, I really like the 318 WR, and in the interest of having a rifle with an action and safety just like all my others, this is the route I'm going. Bolt face is the 06 diameter, so I don't think the conversion should be hard. I'm sure it won't suck...

"having a rifle with an action and safety just like all my others"

Ad that is as good a reason as any, especially if you are not trying to recreate and English Master piece.


The other thread in this forum on 318's is very interesting
if you haven't already read it.

.

I'm all for more .318's whatever the flavor. Just because it is a classic British caliber does not mean you cannot build one American style! If you followed that kind of reasoning, Rigby, H&H and all of the other English makers should never have built rifles for classic American rounds like the 270, 06, 7mag and 300 Win mag unless they furnished and stocked them American style! That said, I am building one on a 09 Argie and will stock it in the classic British style, but that is my taste. I used my Vickers .318 on three head of pg in Africa, using 250 gr. Woodleigh softs. All shots were pass thru's on broadside shots with what appeared to be little to no expansion, even on the Zebra. I am curious as to others real world experience with this bullet on game. I get the impression that this bullet is a bit "hard" even when driven to the requisite 2400 fps. I know my experience is probably not representative, but lets hear from others about it.

I'm thinking like Lee. There's certainly nothing wrong with a Model 70 in 300H&H or 375H&H, so I'm gonna build mine in 318WR. I'd love to have an actual WR rifle, but I'd much rather spend the money in Africa. As far as resale value when I'm dead, well, I'm dead. I won't care.

So again, what barrel co and/or gunsmith do you recommend? I appreciate the leads I've gotten already, but was hoping to hear from.someone who's done this so I can avoid unforeseen.pitfalls...

.

ALF- In the name of good taste, you can send an actual Westley Richards in 318, to me, and avoid all possible mistakes.

.

I'll take the one on the bottom!

They do come up in Holt's auctions and if the barrel is stuffed, you could just rebarrel it. I know of one in India and might try and track it down next time I am there.

The stuffed one's still tend to shoot as long as rifling
i still good in the last half of the barrel.

Phil,

I reckon you cannot make a mistake with a .318. It's performance on game is nothing short of oustanding, and you won't use anything else for a long time after you've killed your first head of game with it.

As for your rifle choice, well, it's certainly not a "classic" combination but if you're looking for something affordable that will shoot and be familiar, you cannot go wrong. My .318 is a high-grade 1922-vintage Westley Richards with a 26-inch barrel, and it's a peach.

I've seen plenty of .318's, almost all of them with Metford rifling in the barrels. For some reason, WR made their .318's with Metford rifling, at least prior to WW II. Metford rifling often looks tired and worn-out when compared to square-grooved Enfield-type rifling, but don't be deceived! It is definitely more finicky but play around with it a bit and the accuracy will be amazing. I saw a damn near unfired early-1930's WR .318 some time ago and the uninformed would have sworn that the barrel was completely worn-out. A friend bought it and with my own special recipe (with just about ZERO excess "jump" - the lands leave a ring of shiny marks on the nose of the bullet when in the chamber, neck-size ONLY and don't go over 2 250 fps) it shot amazing groups over the bench - for an open-sighted rifle.

With regards to the Woodleigh 250-grain soft, I have nothing but the highest regard for that bullet! It expands perfectly at the abovementioned velocity and it shoots through everything! Meat damage is zero as well - due to the low velocity, I suspect. A mate borrowed my rifle some time ago to shoot a big blue wildebeest bull in the chest. We recovered the perfectly-mushroomed bullet in the stomach contents and it weighed in at 231 grains, if I remember correctly. And yes, not an ounce of bloodshot meat anywhere.

Treat yourself to a .318, you won't be disappointed. Besides, every guy who wants to go back to a cartridge like the .318 and increase its popularity even one tiny bit should be encouraged, in my point of view. What would the world be like if everyone carried only .338's around all the time? Boooooring!

Thanks for the encouragement! Like I said, I'd love a WR, but all the ones I've seen are $5k+, and I wouldn't hate a Model 70 based rifle at all. And, as you state, I've heard nothing but good reviews about those 250 gr. Woodleighs.

It's funny, the thing that steered me toward.this cartridge was handloading my pals 338. I.found when you dropped the speed.from 2650fps to 2400fps, the accuracy improved dramatically and the recoil dropped.off to 'comfy' levels. I then realized that it was the same performance as the 318, and thought "Wouldn't that be neat...?"

Phil,
In your original post you asked for a name of someone that could do what you wanted. I'll give you one. His name is John Maples. He's in Texas and can be reached at 713-412-5816. He has the amazing ability of taking an action, a barrel, some sights and whatnot, and a big old chunk of wood; working on them getting rid of everything that doesn't look like it belongs there; and turning out a rifle that would make any of the upper end pre war English gunsmiths proud. I share your enthusiasm for the .318. I've got three of 'em and am always looking for another. I've shot a load of African and North American game with them, and as others have reported, the 250 grain Woodleigh performs way better than it should. Good luck with yours.
Hollis

Thank you, sir.

I too, would love to build a 318 WR. I really wouldn't care what action it was built on or what style of stock. Okay, I don't want one with a thumbhole stock or huge rollover cheekpiece.

Krieger offers a 318 WR barrel with a 1-12 twist. Would love to hear how the build comes out. I am in the middle of a 400 Whelen build on a lefty model 70. The 318 is high on my list for the next build.

mart

I have to agree with ALF. Personally if I wanted a "330" I'd go for a 338 Winchester Magnum simply because it is the better cartridge and also more easily available.

ALF is right. You are making a "bastardised" version of a British classic rifle and the bullets will be a pain to obtain.

Far better, IMHO, to go for the 338-06 if you want something with a standard non-magnum diameter casehead on a Winchester chassis.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Nderobo:
Okay guys, who gets the recommendation for building a 318WR, on a Model 70 receiver I'm thinking. Probably wanting to rebarrel and restock a 35 Whelen. Talk to me, please!

Phil, I can't recommend someone to build you the rifle as I live in a different country, a different hemisphere even.

Any competant gunsmith will be able to build you your rifle. Barrels are available from Lothar Walther on special order. Cases can be made from .30-06 brass to get you going and correct headstamped brass I believe is available from Hertenberg and Bertram.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com...arch=true#Post180654

Projectiles are also available from Bertram and you already know about the superb Woodleighs.

Maintain your dream and you will have a unique individual rifle.

Alf -

The bottom of your two .318 rifles looks a lot like a Wesrley Richards I used to own when I lived in Saskatchewan. I sold it in about 1975 to a fella who owned a gunshop in Kamloops, B.C. Doubt it is the one you have, but I suppose it could be.

Of course, brass is not hard to come by at all. Very simple to make from '06 brass.

Bullets ARE very limited as to choice, but there are still a few options out there. Any decent bullet of about 180 grains or up will work fine for hunting about the same animals you would use a similar weight '06, 8mm, or .338 bullet on. So not having a ton of bullet choices really isn't a big deal if you are a hunter.

As to the "bastard" part, an action designed for the German military, in a French walnut stock, with a British parade of rear sights and a British skinny forend is not exactly totally legitimate either. Ooops, did I just describe a Westly Richards .318 built on a M98 action....?

I agree you will lose money building one, unless you are a well enough known & respected gunmaker that pretty much ANYTHING you build will appreciate in value.

But, as another guy here pointed out, he isn't having one built primarily to sell, but to use for his personal satisfaction. And, yes, when you are dead, you don't give a certified, gold-plated damn what they sell for then!!

My wife buys horses with her spare money. Makes her happy, even though they all eventually go lame, die, and other VERY unprofitable (and depressing) things. Still dressage is her "bag", and I think she is smart to indulge it while she can. She's only gonna get to go around once, so far as I have actually observed. But, when mama's happy, I'm happier than when she's not.

So, I say, plan.buy, and use knowing that you can't take it with you. Doesn't matter what it is, legitimate classic or illegitimate bastard, guns, or mustard coloured buggy-whips. Ergo, one should best spend his money how it brings HIM the most out of life. Don't worry about profit or paper values, unless lucre is the only thing in life that primarily brings you happiness. If it is, well, one must become a Silas Marner Clone and enjoy himself.

Best wishes to everyone, and don't feel chagrined by enjoying whatever it is you buy, build, or already have. Just let it turn your crank before your own main shaft fails.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
As to the "bastard" part, an action designed for the German military, in a French walnut stock, with a British parade of rear sights and a British skinny forend is not exactly totally legitimate either. Ooops, did I just describe a Westly Richards .318 built on a M98 action....?

LOL, Very good, that is a good description of most English bolt guns.


Cosidering the British don't like the French or German's, it says a lot !!!.

.

Alf, not hacking on you as you are entitled to your opinion! It is just that there are no set rules in gunmaking, and no one country has an exclusive franchise or inherant "right" to be the only one to build a firearm to a certain style or caliber. All firearms styling has been influenced through the years by what others had done previously. I have to say, though, damn near anything is an improvement on a Weatherby!!
I would never discourage a fellow gun lover from building anything, no matter how "impractical" it is. Here in the U.S., .330 bullets are just a phone call and CC number away, I have never had any problems getting them except, the Woodleigh solid is hard to come by. I just make sure I keep stocked up as Midway and Huntingtons only order Woodleighs a few times a year.
I decided to use the L/W barrel over the Krieger based on projected delivery time, in the end, it took just as long. I like the available L/W type A mauser contour, it really looks right. John Maples does very nice work and would be an excellant choice, but there are plenty of good smiths out there. Phil, if you want to order the barrell, there is an outfit called Competitor Corp. in N.H. that builds s/s pistols that have the reamers and headspace gauges and will barrel you up for a reasonable fee.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ALF:


Value of these arms lie in their particular style.

Change it in any way and value goes down except if the change was done due to say a mandated ruling that the arm needed to be altered. In this event sometimes a value is added.

Drill and tap a bridge on one for instance and you lose value, put a Weaver mount on say a Mauser and it loses value, this in essence is what "Gun Style" is all about.!/QUOTE]



Those sentences exactly make my point, Alf!


Changes from absolute originality MAY make the guns less valuable money-wise someday, BUT at the same time they gain immediate intrinsic value for the user.

The value of any gun is not inherent in a "style" other than how that style works for the user, to accomplish HIS ends.

If he wants it as a decoration or a status symbol, then yes, changing it is about as useful as changing a Mona Lisa by adding some house paint to it with a roller-brush. If he wants it for speculative money making, it will also likely fail if he changes it.

But, if he wants it for his own use, while he is still alive and has the vim & vigor to employ it, then altering it to suit his use only ADDS to the value for him.

A person has to know what his own priorities and motives are to know what to buy, and what to do with it.

For him, fitting those priorities is the best way to go, always.

It seems clear what YOUR priorities are. For you it appears that changing anything on an item others judge to have status is a :no-no" and diminishes the image you wish to project by your ownership of them. There is nothing wrong with that. Many other people feel the same way.

But that does not make it "wrong" for any other legitimate owner of anything to alter it to meet his own wishes. It is, after all, his, not ANYONE else's. What he does with it is absolutely no one else's business so long as his actions do not directly harm them in some meaningful way.

No one has the right to judge him or his possesions because he has done that. To do otherwise is, to me, the height of arrogance.

Best wishes, y'all.

.

quote:

I have no desire or any attraction to a H&H in say a 270 or a 7mm Rem Mag, make it a classic H&H caliber or Brit caliber of the time and you have my full attention. And it goes both ways, I have huge affinity to classic American rifles, but then they too must fit the aesthetic values of that genre of gun.

And then there is my biggest turn off..... and that is when custom makers build guns at very high prices and mix gun styles? I know that is what the client wants and pays for. It may likely be no problem for most but in my book, it's a big no no !

Hybrids look funny most of the time and lacks identity.
For example, I would not build a .308 Win on a Mauser action.
Nor would I turn a Mauser style rifle into a varmint, target or benchrest style rifle.
Minor improvements/changes ito triggers and safeties are OK with me.
But not something that has no resemblance to the original.

Just my personal opinion and liking.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

quote:

I have no desire or any attraction to a H&H in say a 270 or a 7mm Rem Mag, make it a classic H&H caliber or Brit caliber of the time and you have my full attention. And it goes both ways, I have huge affinity to classic American rifles, but then they too must fit the aesthetic values of that genre of gun.

And then there is my biggest turn off..... and that is when custom makers build guns at very high prices and mix gun styles? I know that is what the client wants and pays for. It may likely be no problem for most but in my book, it's a big no no !

Hybrids look funny most of the time and lacks identity.
For example, I would not build a .308 Win on a Mauser action.
Nor would I turn a Mauser style rifle into a varmint, target or benchrest style rifle.
Minor improvements/changes ito triggers and safeties are OK with me.
But not something that has no resemblance to the original.

Just my personal opinion and liking.

Warrior

I totally agree!

M

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ALF:


Value of these arms lie in their particular style.

Change it in any way and value goes down except if the change was done due to say a mandated ruling that the arm needed to be altered. In this event sometimes a value is added.

Drill and tap a bridge on one for instance and you lose value, put a Weaver mount on say a Mauser and it loses value, this in essence is what "Gun Style" is all about.!/QUOTE]



Those sentences exactly make my point, Alf!


Changes from absolute originality MAY make the guns less valuable money-wise someday, BUT at the same time they gain immediate intrinsic value for the user.

The value of any gun is not inherent in a "style" other than how that style works for the user, to accomplish HIS ends.

If he wants it as a decoration or a status symbol, then yes, changing it is about as useful as changing a Mona Lisa by adding some house paint to it with a roller-brush. If he wants it for speculative money making, it will also likely fail if he changes it.

But, if he wants it for his own use, while he is still alive and has the vim & vigor to employ it, then altering it to suit his use only ADDS to the value for him.

A person has to know what his own priorities and motives are to know what to buy, and what to do with it.

For him, fitting those priorities is the best way to go, always.

It seems clear what YOUR priorities are. For you it appears that changing anything on an item others judge to have status is a :no-no" and diminishes the image you wish to project by your ownership of them. There is nothing wrong with that. Many other people feel the same way.

But that does not make it "wrong" for any other legitimate owner of anything to alter it to meet his own wishes. It is, after all, his, not ANYONE else's. What he does with it is absolutely no one else's business so long as his actions do not directly harm them in some meaningful way.

No one has the right to judge him or his possesions because he has done that. To do otherwise is, to me, the height of arrogance.

Best wishes, y'all.

This, is among the best posts I have ever read on AR or any other gun forum and I could not agree more! I get so tired of the pompous "know what's best for you" blowhards that so often attempt to dictate to others what they "must" do with THEIR rifles and what is/is not "proper, old boy" in another person's rifle, gun, wife, dog or vehicle.

An example is that some years ago, I bought a very nice Oberndorf Type B in 9.3x62 and it SHOOTS, boy, does this 74 year old rifle EVER perform. So, after I got it, I had the local rifle shop's smith D/T it and had EAW mounts and a 4x Leupy installed. It will shoot 285 NPs and 286 Hornady Sps into a sub-moa group together, all day long and at nearly 2500 fps-mv.

This is close to "perfect" for a working rifle in BC's wilderness given our large and increasing Grizzly population and I am very happy with it. Yet, a few "gun nuts" I am acquainted with, who have NO actual BC wilderness experience and often affect phoney "English" accents, although born here in Vancouver, have pompously accused me of "vandalizing" this rifle........typical, I guess.

As an aside, I do not care for that rifle on Ralf's site and would never buy a Weatherby, although I have loaded for and shot many of them in the past 40+ years here in BC. However, I knew a couple of VERY successful, hardhunting guys originally from "Yurp" who used nothing else and loved them. Among the nicest custom rifles I have handled was a Sauer-built Weatherby "Europa" in .270Wea., with a 27" tube, fine irons and simply superb, granite-hard walnut stock.

This rifle was at "European Arms" when I was managing a local gunshop and I could have bought it at a major discount...and, would have had it not been a lefthanded action, so, go figure, each to his own.

Alberta Canuck, you are a wise old guy and I always enjoy your comments here.

What was Rigby thinking?... ..............................................


Is this an orig. Rigby stock feature, or did WDM Bell hastily file it out one evening,whilst around the campfire?....

I suppose its arguments like these that make people shoot everything with a 375H&H, its less stressful. Without offending, i wasnt asking for approval, I was asking for a reference. IM well aware of the merits of more readily available 338 or 338-06 rifles, but I wanted an affordable 318WR, without pedigree, one that kills what you point it at, with the same action, safety, trigger, etc, as my 300WM, 416 Rem, etc.

Many thanks for the references Ive received, I shall make some phone calls next week.

.

While you are having this rifle built you may want to consider adding a peep sight or aperture sight. This one is from one of my WR Lt series. It is mounted to the bolt release and eliminates buggering your rifle by drilling holes.
Frank

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Eisch Bwana !

Mauser model A Weaver mounts and rail with a scout scope ! Way to go

Isn't she sweet. It has worked brilliantly for over 30 years.

Frank: That receiver site is just lovely. Thanks for posting the photos.
Phil: Alberta Canuck has already mentioned it, but why not consider building your .318 on a Mauser 98 action? They are certainly affordable, and more traditional.
I understand where both Alf and AC are coming from. If I had a Model 70 lying about in .30-06 or .35 Whelen that I had little use for, I could see rebarreling to .318, a cartridge I have long lusted after.
But the romance thing is important to me, too, so I personally would feel much better about the whole package done up on a Mauser action with a 25 or 26-inch barrel and in a stock duplicating the lines of a Gibbs or WR. That's just me, though; I've been an Anglophile since reading the Sherlock Holmes canon as a kid ...
Good luck on your project, and please share your progress.

I'm not so offended by the idea of a .318 WR on the Model 70 pre '64--after all the 70 was a slavish copy of many of Mauser's ideas. I once saw an incredible .375 H&H in best British style done by the incomparable Monte Mandarino, done on same. It came to the shoulder like a London Best shotgun and you looked right down the express sights.

Here is some middle ground: Weld on one of Duane Wiebe's Oberndorff bolt handles set straight down and change the bottom metal to a straddle type. With the right barrel contour and express sights you're most of the way there on the metal. Stock style ought to be severely classic, with British influence or at least in a lean American style. A red 1" recoil pad is mandatory!

You could do a prototype on the cheap by reboring and rechambering a Model 70 standard barrelled action. I'd use Delta Gunshop/Clearwater reboring for that job. Drop it back in an orginal stock and do all your load developement while you contemplate whether you want to take it farther with a custom stock, ect.

With

Kifaru: Welcome. With sensible posts like this one, you have a bright future here at AR!

...until he gets sucked into the Political Forum cesspool.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
...until he gets sucked into the Political Forum cesspool.

Man, aint that the truth!

As for the Rigby pictures above, I would imagine that a straight gripped .275 or the slot in the butt of Bell's rifle would both serve to ease the use of a scabbard while on horseback. Although I think Selby put the slot in there. If this is the rifle of Bell's which Ruark bought for Selby's son, looks like the plaque is right where the sling swivel would have been.
Really, I am surprised there aren't more light rifles with straight grips as long as the LOP isn't too short.