Pasted from Allen Day's post linked below.

"I took the kimber out this morning for its first range test and break-in, shooting it alongside my favorite custom Model 70s in 300 Win. Mag. and 338 Win. Mag.

In a nutshell, the trigger and safety on my kimber is very, very good, and there would be absolutely no benefit in reworking the trigger or retiming the safety. On my rifle, the trigger/safety system is exactly where it needs to be, and I'm happy to say it came this way right from the factory. The shape of the trigger lever itself is well thought-out, and aids significantly in trigger control.

The stock is well-shaped, but it's rather slippery and it would benefit greatly from some molded-in checkering. But the stock is extremely well-made and sturdy, complete with pillar-bedding, and I'm not sure if a better synthetic stock is available on an off-the-shelf production rifle today.

Since it's light and kicks a bit, I named this rifle 'Snotty' after the first three shots, and you really have to hold on to it front and back for best results. I found that accuracy and shootability (off the bench) was best if the forend was on the front rest just ahead of the front sling stud.

Feeding isn't the great, and I believe kimber needs to continue to develop the magazine box/follower system for this rifle. They have NOT arrived yet with the current system.

The action itself is really delightful though, and it has that smooth, bank vault-type feel and sound as a good Mauser 98. It's a well-made receiver and bolt in every way, although I must say, I'd rather see a bolt-sleeve latching system that's similar to the Model 70 or current Dakota instead of the kimber's ball-bearing detent. I do love the kimber bolt release: It's simple, functional, handy, practical, and good-looking.

After getting the scope sort of zeroed and after break-in, I tested for accuracy with two Federal factory loads, one with 180 gr. Nosler Accu Bonds, and the other with 165 gr. Nosler Partitions. Even with a warm barrel, the 180 Accu Bond load produced a 3-shot 1.0075" group at 100 yds. and with a very warm barrel the 165 gr. Partition load produced a very satisfactory 5-shot .9370" group, which just ain't shabby!
You can bet that when I start handloading for Snotty, I'll start with Nosler 165s.........

As far as I'm concerned, Snotty has a place in my hunting battery. For what I think is a reasonably-priced production rifle that's practical, shootable, portable, well-made, tough, weather-resistant, accurate, and potent, you'd have to go a long way to find a better rifle for the money.

I've tested and owned custom rifles that cost a whole, whole lot more than this little kimber Montana but some of them weren't anywhere near as good............"

AD
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?C...arch=true#Post574106

My experience with the two Kimbers I own is similar to yours. I think Kimber has to be one of the best values available in a rifle. Mine, a .243 Montana, and one of the limited edition french walnut stocked .300 WSM, both shoot consistent .8" groups, with many groups smaller. Fit and finish are great and their stock design is ideal IMO. I just took delivery on a custom ultra-light .338 that cost three times what I paid for my Montana, weighs the same, shoots .8" at best, and fit, finish, and magazine function were unbelieveably poor, so poor that the rifle went back for serious alteration. What a disappointment that project is turning out to be! If Kimber made a .338 I would have bought one without considering going the custom route. The only complaint I've had with my Kimbers has been feeding from the magazine. They both had to go back, but customer service was great and turn -around time was quick.

Cobrad, if the outfit that built your 338 is the one I'm thinking of, some of the rifles they turn out are atrocious, while others are pretty good. A lot of custom rifles are inconsistent in terms of quality, and I'm not sure why. CUSTOM shouldn't be that way!

As I understand it, Kimber is going to make the Montana 8400 in 325 WSM as well, which might be a nice option for elk hunting.

I was very happy in that the barrel on my rifle is very smooth and consistent inside, and fouls minimally. It's very easy to clean. Plus, the chamber and bolt face are square and the locking lugs bear very evenly, and the stock is superbly bedded. So in a lot of ways, Kimber IS turning out a custom-quality "using" rifle for a very reasonable price. There just isn't much work to do on one of them, other than install the scopemounts and scope properly plus break-in the barrel and work up loads.

For a light production factory rifle, this Kimber is lightyears ahead of the Remington 700 Mountain rifles I've owned, and I think it's better than the NULA custom rifles I've examined. I surely do like the action and trigger on this Kimber..........

AD

Originally posted by Allen Day:

quote:

I find the short bolt-throw/action "advantages" and beltless "advantage" to be a farce that's best left to the pilgrims to enjoy and fuss over. I'm going hunting with the belted-magnums I already have, and since I haven't had any problems with such cartridges for nearly thirty years, I suspect I won't this season, either. I won't be staying up nights worrying about it, that's for darned sure.

There are countless guys who have literally hunted the world for many years with standard belted magnums -- and without problems -- and most of these guys that I've talked to think all of the WSM propaganda is a rather lame and pathetic joke.

We'll let the benchrest cowboys and weekend hobbyists and theorists scream bloody murder over belted cases -- we're going hunting.

They had a program on the History Channel the other night tracing the history of magnum handgun and rifle rounds. A significant part of the program was devoted to the use of the (belted, 1963-version) 300 Win. Mag. by U.S. Army riflemen at Fort Benning, GA. This isn't old history, it's current stuff, mind you, and the 300 Win. Mag. rifles these men were using were as modern and sophisticated as they get. Now, if the belted case was such a big, bad ogre, these guys wouldn't be using it.........

AD

Originally posted by Allen Day on 24 Hour Campfire:

quote:

MD, I bought the synthetic-stocked, 'Montana' version.

I'll break the bbl. in very carefully and see how it fouls. It's funny how certain bbls. foul like crazy, while others don't. I have 24" Kreiger bbls. on matched pair of 338 Win. Mag. rifles I own, both of which were thoroughly broken-in when new. One of them fouls like crazy and delivers about 50 fps. more velocity with the same loads compared to the other bbl., which fouls minimally. The first bbl. may be tighter than the other, which could account for the difference in velocity, as well as the fouling, I'm not certain.....

I bought this kimber 8400 for the fun of it and to gain some experience with the 300 WSM, and especially as a foul-weather blacktail deer, Roosevelt elk, coastal blackbear, and goat rifle. To keep with the "new & different" theme, I installed a Leupold 2.5-8x VX-III with the B&C reticle, plus a 'Montana' rifle sling.

That sling is really nice, by the way, and I love the 'Titan' sling swivels that come installed on it.........

AD

Are we talking about the same "Allen Day" here, or is there more than one "Allen Day"?

Chet

Chet, we're one in the same, and I still prefer belted-magnums over these short, fat magnums!

This was just a fun little rifle to pick up and play with.........

AD

Allen,

Whew, good to have you back, thought you might be suffering from bipolar disorder. Seriously though, I will be interested to hear your ongoing experience with this rifle. I have considered buying one myself, but I figured as long as I was wading into the short-mag end of the puddle, I might as well try the .325. I have also heard that Kimber might be chambering standard magnum cartridges in the near future.



On an off the subject side-note: I took my .300 Wby Legend to the range this weekend to check its zero and try out some new handloads before heading off to Jackson, Wyoming for the mule deer opener on Thursday. I worked up some loads using the 200 grain Barnes TSX. I have never tried the TSX's before, but all I have to say is wow! I found a load that chronographs at 3050 fps and shoots into .335 inch. It should also shoot very flat with a BC of .551. Talk about an all around hunting rifle/load for everything from moose-eland on down! I would highly recommend trying these bullets.

Chet

I also have bought a Kimber 8400 in 300WSM in the last 6 months. I didn't have a 300 Magnum in my battery and well I had to try out one these short mags. Mine has a beautiful piece of walnut on it. I really like the classic lines of this little gun, especially mounted w/ a 2.5-8x Leupold scope. It is light in weight w/ good balance, plus it is a real shooter. I have developed 3 different handloads that will all shoot 180 grain Nosler Partitons into <1" at 100 yards at MV of +3000fps. And I have a box of 180 grain Northforks that I can't wait to give a try.

I do have one complaint. My trigger has a slight amount of creep in it, before it breaks and it drives me crazy. I have tried to adjust it out, with no luck. I even sent it back to the factory and it is still there. I guess I'm going to have to send it to a gunsmith and have the trigger stoned.

Any other suggestion?

MHC,

You can try to rub some moly powder on the sear surfaces. There is a little hole on the side of the trigger housing where the sear can be seen from both sides.

Also try adjusting the sear engagement to less. This may then avoid the rough spot. The screws to the rear of the trigger housing do the engagement and the weight of pull.

Safety test your rifle afterwards with a drop test. (drop the rifle butt on the floor a few times) and also slam the bolt to make sure it does not fire from those impacts.

Chet, since my favorite Echols Legend 300 Win. Mag. (along with its 416 Rem. Mag. running mate) is committed to Tanzania for this season, I can't really risk it to my NM elk hunt, which comes first this year. So I have my Legend 338 Win. Mag. and my #2 Legend 300 Win. Mag. both zeroed for NM, and I can't quite decide which one to take.

The 338 Win. Mag. shoots 225 gr. Nosler Accu Bonds into a little over .3700", and the 300 Win. Mag. shoots 180 gr. Nosler Partitions into about the same size group. Both rifles are zeroed for 250 yds., and the first shot from either one out of a cold, clean barrel hits in exactly the same place every time. So I'm sort of flipping coins at this point.

If D'Arcy's product has one single, universal problem, it's that he makes his rifles almost TOO good!

AD

I have to also confess to being interested in the "short/fat" catridges. If I buy one, it will be in one of the Kimbers, those rifles are pretty sweet considering that they are production rifles.

Not sure which round I'd get though. The 270 sounds really interesting, the 300 would be awesome I'm sure, and I personally think the 325 is really going to sell.

I think I'd lean towards the 270 in the end.

I had a little time this afternoon to play with the Kimber, and I couldn't help but notice that it works much better with Winchester ammo than Federal. For one thing, Winchester ammo feeds out of the magazine better, plus you can insert a round straight into the chamber and close the bolt with ease, for a four-round rifle capacity. I haven't yet taken careful case measurements to see what the difference is, but I will.

I still think Kimber needs to develop a better magazine system, but the 8400 Montana is a really neat little rifle just the same, and it's considerably better made than most other contemporary production rifles, with the possible exception of Weatherby. Some smart people sat up nights conceptualizing this one, that much is abundantly clear.

For anyone with about a $1,000 rifle budget who wants the best weather-proof, light, potent rifle available, I just don't know of anything better. The bigger rifle companies had better look out for Kimber.......

AD

I like "medium-short, fat cartridges" built on the .308 case, but don't have much use for the current crop of short magnums, and it has nothing to do with speed of bolt throw.

I like a rifle to balance a bit farther back to the butt than is typical with longer actions, and the .308 family of cartridges does that for me nicely.

Also, if my next rifle is Sako, the medium action is apparently 12 ounces lighter than the long action, and that's sufficiently significant to tip me to the lighter weight, even for the lower-than-the-Rockies Virgiinia hills.

That being said, if I feel the need for another .300 magnum, it'll be another belted .300 Win Mag.

Jaywalker

Jaywalker, I still prefer standard belted magnums to these short, fat ones, and the old vintage-1963 300 Win. Mag. remains my favorite all-around cartridge.

AD

Allen,

How does your feed ramp angle compare to this photo of my October 2004 8400 in 270 WSM?

Savage, not Allen, but I can tell you they're the exact same. Nothing's changed. A Dremel polish on the ramp and some 500 Emery under the rails will improve this (or nearly any) rifle!

PS, you've got a PM.

Savage, my ramp looks a mite longer and more gradual, but you know how unreliable visual estimates can be, I'm sure!

Brad, I'm going to try some emery polishing in the areas you mentioned and see what happens. With my rifle and three-down, the first round up out of the magazine wants to lurch and seize, and there is a noticable dent produced in the wall of the case. The next two rounds feed satisfactorily.

AD

Allen, a super polish on the ramp will really help as will smoothing the rails. I'd also reccomend keeping the magazine stuffed with three rounds (or the equivelant dummies) for a month or so. The 8400's magazine spring is amazingly stout and taking just a little of the tension out of it improves feeding of the first round.

I think that the angle is quite abrupt on my 8400.

My feed ramp itself seems quite polished on it's surface but not its leading and following edges. I think it's the angle.

Edit (I composed this before Allen posted above) Polishing has to be a good idea but remember that it's under warrantee.

To add that the older my 8400 gets the smoother it gets.



Brad
Check your PM's.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
since my favorite Echols Legend 300 Win. Mag. (along with its 416 Rem. Mag. running mate) is committed to Tanzania for this season, I can't really risk it to my NM elk hunt, which comes first this year.
AD

I don't understand....

What is there to risk - I thought they held zero and were high quality strong and functional rifles (as you repeatedly remind us )

If they can't be risked on a big hunt prior to a big hunt should you take it on a long African trip?

I bought one of the first model 84M rifles when they first came out.It would not feed worth diddly and would Jam & stick the brass and i would have to hit the bolt hard to get it to open.I sent it back to kimbers shop and they worked on it and polished it up.There is considerable polishing on the magazine floor plate as well as the feed ramp.My rifle feeds a lot better but will sometime jam on the last round.It really works the best when i slam the bolt back and forth on loading hard as hell instead of easy.The little 308 rifle is a tack driver and i think it will get better with use,but i do worry about jamming.It is without a doubt one of the most accurate rifles i have ever shot.

1894, listen to this explaination and you won't roll your eyes anymore, at least not on this topic ......

I had to commit the descriptions, calibers, and serial numbers of my rifles to my safari company and to the Tanzanian authorities well in advance of my safari, and I did so over six months ago. They are expecting those very rifles to show up, and no last-minute substitutes will be allowed, at least not without a hassle, coaxing, and "compensation".

I also had to commit the descriptions and serial numbers of my rifles to the authorities in Amsterdam in order to get a Netherlands gun permit which will allow me to transfer my rifles through to Tanzania. That permit is now secured, and again, no substitutes will be allowed, begining with my check-in in Portland, OR.

I have also filled out a U.S. Customs declaration form, which includes the serial numbers of my rifles, as well as serial numbers on my scopes, binoculars, cameras, etc. This U.S. Customs form serves as proof-of-ownership for my rifles and allowed me to obtain my Netherlands gun permit. A copy of this form is in the hands of the authorities in Amsterdam right now, and they will expect to see the same form upon my arrival. This same form will also allow me to get my equipment back to the U.S. and through customs without a hassle.

So durability, reliability, etc., has nothing to do with these decisions. It's all about common-sense logistics. I could take the very same 300 Win. Mag. that I'm taking to Tanzania to New Mexico, have a great hunt, check my rifle in at the ariport for the return flight, get off the plane..........and my rifle case isn't there -- for whatever reason -- and yes, I've had this happen before.

And I have just a few days to sort it all out before I have to get on another plane for Africa......

It's much easier and a whole lot smarter to have the rifles I've devoted so much time and paper work to tucked away safely at home while I hunt with another rifle! And why not? I have the other rifles, and if I hunt with the #2 300 Win. Mag. instead of the #1 rifle, what's the difference? The #2 rifle is built exactly the same, shoots the same ammo, is sighted-in the same, etc. It costs me NOTHING to take it to NM, rather than #1.

There's method to my madness after all, 'eh what??

AD

I had been thinking of getting something lightweight but hadn't made up my mind. Do you think one in 308 would feed enough better to be a consideration?

I had a really good look at those Kimbers while at the SHOT Show and while at SCI.

I also repeated several times that they should be made in LH

My friend has the older version ULA in .300 Win. Mag. by Melvin. I convinced him to buy a Kimber SS Syn. in .300WSM as a back-up. Now he uses it more often than the ULA and says it feeds better- yes f-e-e-d-s b-e-t-t-e-r; as apparently the ULA chamber tolerances are very tight and the bolt doesn't cycle as well as on his Kimber.

Just make one in Left-hand!

quote:

It's much easier and a whole lot smarter to have the rifles I've devoted so much time and paper work to tucked away safely at home while I hunt with another rifle! And why not? I have the other rifles, and if I hunt with the #2 300 Win. Mag. instead of the #1 rifle, what's the difference? The #2 rifle is built exactly the same, shoots the same ammo, is sighted-in the same, etc. It costs me NOTHING to take it to NM, rather than #1.

AD

Sounds like as good an excuse (or good reason) to buy another rifle as I've heard in a while. I haven't used that one yet...... ......DJ

Having tried at least four Kimber Montanas myself. They are in no way even close in quality to Melvin Forbes product. Those comments alone display a total lack of knowledge of the NULA rifle. Sort of like saying a Winchester custom shop rifle is as good or better than an Echols Legend. Just totally ridiculous commentary.

HH, please enlighten us to the superiority of the NULA and why the Kimber is not "even close."

Well the Kimbers sell at least. There is a gunwriter up in VT by the name of Hall that had a ULA in 284 before they became NULA. He said that rifle was his favorite and he had some other loaners there like these guys do. I think that he paid for the Ultra Light Arms rifle.

That was before the Kimbers were even made. I looked at the ULA and having some eye for machinery saw the hand made fit and finish. The ULA that I saw was somewhat ugly but one could appreciate the real work in it. It of course was very light.

At that time I did not want a lighter rifle. It would make my Featherweights obsolete so I did not let it tempt me like so many "bad" things. Besides it was quite expensive.

Times have changed and now I need/want lightweights. I never even considered the NULA due to the price. I did think about a Ruger Ultra Light but the one a buddy has is not all that accurate. Then the Kimbers came out and I got two Classics and now two Montanas.

Maybe the NULA is better but the Kimber Montana's that I own are quite a good value in my opinion.

To each his own.

ULA rifles can be very good, but from what I've seen, quality isn't uniform. One of my friends has an older one in 280 Rem., and it not only shoots well, but it's never changed zero or caused him any grief whatsoever, and he's hunted with it off and on for many years.

Another friend has an older ULA in 7mm Rem. Mag. that he's used to take TWO Grand Slams, plus other game by the boxcar full. Again, no problems.

But on the downside, one of my other friends has an older ULA in 30-06, and the barrel is so poorly contoured on the outside and so full of ripples that it resembles a ski mougel, and it shoots just so-so. The most common complaint I've heard with a few of them is that the bolt handles could be attached better, and that some of them have come off. I've heard of others that just didn't shoot as well as as they should and were sent back for new barrels, etc. I suspect that in the later case, some of the clients just couldn't shoot all that well themselves, but blamed the rifle .......

Would I like to have a NULA rifle of my own?

Yes, in 284 Winchester. It's a long-time ambition of mine!

AD

Allen, I like the NULA as well but have heard similar criticisms as yours.

Bootom line, I can't fathom anyone saying the Kimber isn't very darn close in quality. The NULA uses a Timney trigger and Douglas barrel... neither are exacty considered "top drawer."

The main cause of mechanical failure is improper assembly.

The thread over on 24 hr about a NULA was quite an upset for the good doc trying to get ready for a trip.

Working the action, I was quite disappointed to find that the bolt did not engage the base of the case about 2/3 of the time, leaving the round in the chamber, and on the subsequent bolt throw, driving a fresh round from the mag into the one that failed to extract.................AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Question, has anyone recieved a custom rifle that worked as expected (and advertised) on the first try. It's been my experience that you should expect to return the rifle to the gunsmith within the first week for feeding, or extraction problems that you might have expected the 'smith to fix prior to shipping!
Doc "

Savage 99- please don't take this as a pot shot and also don't allow your wife to read this...but

Lets see you didn't buy the NULA because of price but you bought 3 Kimbers. I'm not sure where the NULA is now for pricing but I gotta believe that it would of fit what you paid for the 3 Kimbers.

Just a thought and not a very fun one I agree, being as you got 3 instead of one. But I think you get my drift.

Have a good day

MD

Dober,

I got an A once in Psychology. That was a long time ago. Maybe it was just one paper or maybe the entire semester. Anyway give me the benefit. I tried to apply it to myself. You be the judge.

What I am doing is the same thing over and over endorsing my passion. So if one good gun will do it then by this plan more is better. It has nothing to do with being practical, economical or logical. It's just fun for me that's all.

that makes sense to me, been there done that bought the t-shirt

MD

quote:

Originally posted by HHI #4694:
... Those comments alone display a total lack of knowledge of the NULA rifle...Just totally ridiculous commentary.

HH, hmmm... where's your forum etiquette?

First, like Allen and Brad, I have heard of varying degrees of quality in the ULA or now, NULA rifles.

A bit more commentary- My friend also had his extractor and bolt replaced after he used too hot a handload (yes, his fault) and in trying to pound the bolt open, all broke and went to hell in a hand-basket. Melvin did replace the whole piece at minimal cost for him.

Further while his rifle is right-handed, I did shoot it and must admit that the bolt did not chamber the cartridge all that smoothly- which is scary as most of my experience has been with a factory Savage Arms rifle.

Finally, he's always complained that the tolerances were so tight, it sometimes wouldn't feed factory ammo all that well. He also complained that he has to keep his fired cases separate because it won't fed cases previously fired in his Rifles Inc. rifle.

All that to say, while maybe he should return the ULA rifle to Melvin for a good going over, he has said that he now prefers his Kimber over his ULA.

HH, what is your experience with the ULA/NULA? I may just get a .22 Lefty made up by him. Though, I will make damn sure that he test fires it and that I give it a trial run- any kinks and it will be sent back for finishing.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
1894, listen to this explaination and you won't roll your eyes anymore, at least not on this topic ......

Allen,

I did think it was to do with paperwork but such an opportunity is too good to miss!

How much is a legend, how long the wait and will he do one in 270 (or 30-06)?

Cheers

Brad,

As difficult as it may be for you to fathom, you really do get what you pay for in life, most especially with rifles. I do like the Kimber Montanas a great deal. I just do not believe that they are even slightly close to a NULA. The Kimbers I have seen have been anything but consistent, especially the 8400's with feeding. I do think they are basically a bargain, considering that I have seen examples selling for about $900.00 brand new. No doubt, they are far superior to the Remington 700 Titaniums in a super light rig. However, they do not balance nearly as well as the basic NULA, nor point and shoulder as naturally; although I realize this is subjective. The Montana stock although designed by Forbes, is not as good as the NULA stock. The accuracy between the two is not even close from my experience. All six of my NULA rifles will shoot rings around the Montanas that I have worked with. But then a few of these same NULA's will shoot rings around my two Penrod built model 70's and my partners two Echol's Legends as well as my brother's Jarret rifle. Both in my hands and thiers, so it is not just the shooter.

I happen to like Timney triggers, although I realize they are not as simple as they could be. If the Douglas supreme air gauage barrels were mediocre, you are the first person I have heard this from. They have performed for me every bit as good as the various Kreiger, Lilja, Pac Nor, and Shilen barreled rifles that I own or have owned. Truthfully, the only barrel that I can say that has been beyond superb, every single time, are the Hart barreled rifles I have owned or worked with.

I truly believe that Melvin Forbes is a master rifle builder, engineer, inventor, and genius, not to mention an honest gentleman.

If you need more detail, simply give him a call during the day (eastern time). He will galdly explain in full detail why his rifles are better than the Montana, or just about any rifle currently manufactured or custom built. He will answer all your questions in detail, far better than I ever could.

My experience with Kimber has been a mixed bag. I purchased a 308 classic with dealer installed 2.5x8 Leupold last November. Accuracy was very poor and primers were just barely indented. I called the custom shop at Kimber, and shipped the rifle to them for repair. According to the repair order, they replaced the barrel, installled a new mainspring, and replaced the dealer installed sight base screws! (too long) I worked some neck sized loads up at max OAL with 150 nosler solid base bullets and IMR4350. Accuracy was about 3/4" for three shots. I decided to try some shorter factory remington 140 grain loads and got an immediate misfire, and 2" groups. Obviously something is amiss. None of my primers look like they have been hit hard, but the short factory loads are just dimpled. I will be returning the rifle to Kimber again. Any thoughts on what the problem could be?

HHI, that was the most heartwarming bedtime story I've heard around here for a while.......

Stony, I suspect that firing pin protrusion is incorrectly set and needs to be readjusted by the factory.

AD

Stoney,
Could be as simple as a weak firing pin spring--you might be able to fix it by just replacing that if you don't want to send it off again.