We are finishing a mauser 1909 argentine model,with a 20 inch barrel ,we have been investiganting and we expect not much loss of velocity with 180 grains bulets .ANY ADVICE PLEASE.

It depends on what you consider “Not much”.
I suspect your going to loose at least 150 fps, maybe more.
That will make it a really loud 30-06.

On my load program shows a 300 Win Mag w/24" 180 Nos Part 66gr of Rl19 @ 2797fps and 45,708 CUP. With a 20" the same load is 2698fps and 45,466 CUP.

why?

That'll be a real Wax Gun....one shot and all the wax in your ears will be gone !!!!

Glad I won't have to shoot it with full blown loads.
B.I.F.

It will be the equal of any .30-06 ever made; just a whole lot louder.

I bought a used Ruger 77 MKII, left hand, with a 20" barrel. The reason was to use the action for my .395 Max ctdg. Just on a whim, I shot some .300Win Mag ammo I had on hand. LOUD and LOUDER.

I have owned two short barreled 300 mags. One was a 308 Norma and the other a 300 Win. Both had 22 in barrels. The first one I bought because I thought it would be a real handy rifle in thick bush.It wasn't bad but weighed a pound and a half more than my 30-06. When I bought my first chronograph it just ruined that rifle.Max loads would barely make 2900 fps with 180 gr bullets.That Brno ZG now wears a 26 in barrel and 3100 fps with 180 gr bullets is possible with a couple powders. The second rifle with a short barrel was purchased for the action. Again 2900 fps was all that was possible. It now has a 24 in barrel and 3050 fps is achieveable. A 20 in barrel will be in the 2800 fps range or as Stonecreek has pointed out, "like a good 30-06".

quote:

we have been investiganting and we expect not much loss of velocity with 180 grains bulets

Not much loss as compared to what? 20 inch barrels and the 300 Winchester Magnum is an oxymoron. You need extra barrel length for the 300 to show it’s potential. Other wises it’s just a blast on everyone’s ears, and all smoke with no fire.

Having a couple short barrel rifles one in 06 the other 7x57 and they are lound I wouldn't want a 20 inch 300 mag.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

we have been investiganting and we expect not much loss of velocity with 180 grains bulets

Not much loss as compared to what? 20 inch barrels and the 300 Winchester Magnum is an oxymoron. You need extra barrel length for the 300 to show it’s potential. Other wises it’s just a blast on everyone’s ears, and all smoke with no fire.

In that same vein, I see Howa sells their 375 Rooger model with a 24 or a 20 inch barrel.

That's got to be a bit loud...

What can I said about that? People purchase what people purchase. In the case of the 300 Winchester Magnum with a 20 inch barrel, the owner has a noisy 308. As for a Howa 375 Ruger in a 20 inch barrel? All I can say is….. Interesting.

quote:

ANY ADVICE PLEASE.

Wear ear plugs and muffs. Once you get it finished, if possible, sell/give it to a deaf person.

Guille

During the development of the Tango 51, Tac Ops took a standard 26-inch barrel and cut it down to 18 inches in one-inch increments. Between 10 to 20 rounds were fired at each invrement. They found that a 20-inch barrel provides for a complete propellant burn and no velocity loss when using Federal Match 168-grain BTHP, a cartridge that has become something of a law enforcement standard. Going to an 18-inch barrel only resulted in a loss of 32 feet per second (fps).

Shorter barreled rifles are more versatile, being equally suitable for both urban and rural operations. According to Tac Ops, there isn't any need to go to the 26-inch barrel unless you want to go to a heavier bullet or push the round to higher velocity using more powder or use a slower burning powder. The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department's Special Enforcement Bureau (SEB) performed tests similar to those conducted by Tac Ops and came to similar conclusions.

18- to 20-inch barrel may be fine for a caliber like the .308 Win., but what about calibers such as the .300 Winchester Magnum (7.62x66B)? Many agencies are opting for this cartridge as a result of its long range ballistics. The .308 Win. has a maximum effective range of about 800 yards. While this is certainly more than enough for most law enforcement scenarios (law enforcement snipers rarely have to engage targets at more than 100 yards), the .300 Win. Mag. does increase the maximum effective range by an additional this comes with the price of additional recoil.

Many agencies purchasing a .300 Win. Mag. will primarily be employing the rifle in an urban environment. The common reason for opting for the .300 Win. Mag. that it extends the capabilities of the rifle to longer ranges than the .308 Winchester is capable in those rare situations where longer range capability is necessary. This leads to an obvious question -- will going to a shorter barrel for added maneuverability in the urban environment adversely affect long range performance of a rifle in this caliber?

To find the answers, Tac Ops took a 26-inch barreled .300 Win. Mag. and chopped the barrel down in one-inch increments as they previously did with the .308 Winchester. Ten rounds of Federal Match 190-grain BTHP Gold Medal were fired from each increment. No velocity was lost from 26 inches to 22 inches. Velocity loss started to occur only after they went below 22 inches.

As a result of their tests, Tac Ops decided not to go below 22 inches on their .300 Win. Mag. tactical precision rifle, the Alpha 66. According to Mike Rescigno, President of Tac Ops, the 22-inch barrel is ideal for the tactical shooters that are going to use the 190-grain Federal Match ammo. There isn't any loss of performance by going to the 22-inch barrel and this round. The Alpha 66 still provides 1/4-MOA or better accuracy.

For heavier bullets or hotter loads with slower burning powders, Rescigno recommends a 24- to 26-inch barrel. The longer barrel length is necessary for complete powder combustion with these loads. Rescigno adds that he has a 24-inch barrel on his personal .300 Win. Mag. just in case he wants "to shoot the heavier 220-grain bullets with a lot of powder."

REPORTS FROM ANOTHER OPERATORS REMEBER THAT WE ARE PREPARING AND TESTING THE RIFLE FOR HUNTING AND FOR A SPECIAL FORCES UNIT.

In summary, the appropriate barrel length is closely tied to the caliber and the load or loads that will be employed. If a shorter barrel provides equivalent or better accuracy and little or no loss in velocity, why go to a longer barrel? Why sacrifice maneuverability and add excess weight? While old attitudes may die hard, chronographs and ballistics don't lie. Shorter barrels are often better. The proof is in the performance.


SOURCE
Tactical Operations, Inc.
433 North Camden Dr. 4th Fl. #239
Beverly Hills, Ca 90210
Phone 310 275-8797
Fax 323 933-3521

OP: After testing and evaluation, the SEB has decided to go with an 18-inch barrel on all new .308 Win. Tango 51s, and a 22-inch barrel on all .300 Win Mag. Tactical precision rifles. Fred Keeling (left) is shown with with a suppressed 18-inch-barreled Tango 51 .308 Win., and Guy Geisler (right) is shown with a 22-inch-barreled Alpha 66 .300 Win. Mag.

BOTTOM: The optional barrel length is closely tied to the loads that will be employed. There is no loss of performance from the .300 Win. Mag. Federal Match 190-grain BTHP when fired from barrels as short as 22 inches. The above Alpha 66 has Tac Ops muzzle brake installed.

quote:

Originally posted by juanpozzi:
ANY ADVICE PLEASE.

Interesting information juanpozzi. I have a few questions though.

Do you know what the performance standards were?

What was the propellant used?

Is that propellant available to the public?

The 300 Win factory loads have a hard time out performing 30-06 hand loads. Than you want to give it a 20” barrel, what’s the point? Why not a 30-06? It would burn less powder. I can see that if you want to shoot heavier bullets the 300 is a better choice but not everyone shots heavy bullets. I find people that ask for help or advise when they already have the answers very boring.

After all, This is the “Accurate Reloading” website, not “Factory Ammunition in Review”.

MICKINCOLO as you already know ,i experimented a lot before asking and yes i know the answers but ,yet i want your opinion and i listen everybody .
We have several reports from snipers from Afganistan and some from Irak all of them specially from AFG.needs something short ligth not very heavy but better than a 308 .
We have been listening to a lot of international hunters too ,people from GUNSITE,NORMA ,and phs from all the world .WE ARE JUST EXPERIMENTING AND WE HAVE FOUND INTERESTING RESULTS THAT WE WILL PUBLISH IN THE NEAR FUTURE.
Bear in mind that hear we have CZs 308 as sniper rifles.
guillermo amestoy used and tested a lot a 20 inch remington 300 winch .PLEASE PUBLISH YOUR RESULTS.
He colaborates with us on sniper rifles.

Why pick a cartridge with a belt? I don’t have anything against a belted cartridge, but in a combat zone I would think about eliminating anything that could be a problem.

Belts can catch and jam in and on a lot more things than in a rifle’s action. The belt grabs at clothing, packs, and many other things too.

of course the other option but more expensive not so ligth or practical is the 338 lapua magnum,perhaps we bougth some too ,but we want to use a lot of new mauser 1909 argentine model actions that we already have .I have too several hundreds of NORMA ammo and another makers ammo some with fast burning loads.

I was thinking more along the lines of the 300 WSM but it sounds like you need to use up some equipment. Your idea about the 300 Win is not that bad but muzzle blast and recoil (perceived or actually felt) may or may not be a problem.

My advise is to swap the barrel for a 26" one.

Larry Gibson

Larry we need a short powerfull and not so expensive rifle ,many spec ops units are working on this too in USA .Why you dont like the option ...Juan your opinion is welcome.

Why not move up to the 300 RUM and even with the shorter barrel you will still out perform the 300 Winmag...when is enough...enough? If a small arms tactical rifle in .308 Win for urban use, with a 800yard capability is not enough, what the heck are you shooting at and why? Get closer.

we used the 300 wby magnum with great results in the falklands war ,the requeriment is an all around powerfull cartrige capable of 1000 yards shots .
we will test the rifle in many game too.
the 300 rum isnt adecuated because its expensive ,long ,and very rare here.

quote:

Originally posted by juanpozzi:
During the development of the Tango 51, Tac Ops took a standard 26-inch barrel and cut it down to 18 inches in one-inch increments. Between 10 to 20 rounds were fired at each invrement. They found that a 20-inch barrel provides for a complete propellant burn and no velocity loss when using Federal Match 168-grain BTHP, a cartridge that has become something of a law enforcement standard. Going to an 18-inch barrel only resulted in a loss of 32 feet per second (fps). ...

I believe that is actually a Target Load, which has a different set of Design Parameters than a Hunting Load. If the proper Powder was used, with 180gr, 200gr and 220gr Bullets, cutting the barrel from 26" would be significant with each cut.

If you are determined to use Target Loads, then the Test is worthless from the Best Possible Game Killing perspective.

I don't see where there are any Psudo-Military Wanna-Be Boards on this site, which is one reason I like it.

I agree with fast powders and hot primers you can minimize velocity loss, but I can't believe that if you work up an optimum load your for your 18" barrel and I work up an optimum load for my 24" barrel the velocity will be the same. I do understand the desire for a short barrel in a combat weapon though.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

I don't see where there are any Psudo-Military Wanna-Be Boards on this site, which is one reason I like it.

I have something of experience ,on hunting big game , and ,i can count by hundreds ,-and i have hundreds of photos -the buffalos or russian boars taken ,i almost daily hunt small game ,and boars,i kiled many many red stags ,axis ,black bucks ,pumas,and fallow deer,feral rams feral goats ,capibaras and all the species of my countru and neighbouring countries.besides huntingin Europe testing NORMA ammo and invited by balistics expert DR DON HEATH , hunted USA ,and several other wonderfull will places.I guide for more than 20 years in my own farm seeing a lot of heads taken each year
Besides that im a gun writer and worked in balistics ,shooting training and tactical medicine for the military and private security companies f.e.www.cietac.com.ar .
I was a military surgeon in the air force and ex scout in the army.I CAN CONTINUE ,BUT THIS IS BORING ,I JUST WANT TO KNOW YOUR OPINION IN AN INTERESTING MATTER ,ANYBODY THAT HUNTED ENOUGH WALKING IN THE BUSH OR MOUNTAINS OR PATROLLING IN VEHICLES OR HELICOPTERS KNOW THAT SHORT IS BETTER,
CALLING WANNA BE MILITARY OR BEING UNRESPECTFULL SPEAKS ABOUT LOW DEGREE EDUCATION .
Besides that i recommend to walk and run and shoot more with rifles in practical conditions .
PERHAPS JEFF COOPER CONCEPTS WAS WORNG OR IM TOO WEAK AND I NEED A SHORT RIFLE.

Just ,run ,walk ,climb and shoot more rifles in the wild ,not from a bench ,....perhaps YOU WILL SEE AND AGREE WITH JEFF COOPER and AGREE THAT SHORT IS BETTER .PERHAPS THE GREAT LATE COLONEL WAS WRONG TOO.Besides that in our wannabe group we are just experimenting with diferent weapons systems and loads .Please post serious advice.

I im an ex infantry officer ,and i own only one centerfire rifle a cz375hyh i used it for guiding buffalo and boars and for meat BUT I WOULD PREFER A SHORTER RIFLE.
ICANNOT BELIEVE THAT SOMEBODY ASKS ,WHY A SHORT RIFLE ,DO YOU EXIT VEHICLES FAST ,DID YOU WALKED UNDER LOW TREES WITH A LONG RIFLE ,DID YOU CLIM WITH A RIFLE .....I SEE MANY BECH SHOOTER AND FEW PRACTICAL SHOOTERS .TRAIND HARD ,HUNT WILD .

My oldest son is in the 3rd Ranger Battalion, they favor short barrels for the same reasons. However I thought we were discussing velocity loss per inch of barrel in a 300 Mag?

I think the 300 WSM is a poor choice,it is accurate but those fat cartridges just don't chamber like L/A cartridges.They hang up,beat bullet tips up and generally don't do as well as slimmer cartridges.
I find it interesting 75 years of dicking around with .308 caliber cartridges that no one has done better than the 300 H&H(equal to .300 WSM).No belt lots of room for powder and cartridges,long necks for long(heavy) bullets feed like a dream in most actions.
With all of the new bullets and powders I see no reason that the 300 H&H should not be considered as a viable canidate.It will be my next long range rifle project.
The only downside I see is short barrel performance.
Where am I wrong ? This makes sense to me,could be dangerous !

Randy and Chuck ,thanks for an intelligent response ,we are testing the rifle for a military unit ,we use 1909 mauser actions .BUT I PREFER A SHORT RIFLE IN ANY HUNTING SITUATION ,I HUNT PROFESSIONALY BUT i travel to take new species too and always liked short rifles.
Yes its interesting the velocity loss ,but with the new developments i believe it isnt so iportant.
I NEW THAT A 26 INCH 3006 can equal a 300 BUT WE DONT WANT A LONG RIFLE ,THEY ARENT PRACTICAL FOR HUNTING OR AS A PATROL RIFLE.ANYBODY WITH ENOUGH EXPERIENCE CAN SAY IT ,just ask to GANYANA or guilermoamestoy.

I believe the scout concept of JEFF COOPER is gret development that marked the path of a lot of new weapons systems ,m4s ,police remintongs rugers ,steyrs etc i only like the forward mounted sigth in DG short range situations or in CQB but the overall concept is greatand based in the experience of the great laboratory that was GUNSITE .
I hunt every year in the mountains and i walk a lot too with clients and military units ,a good short long range rifle ,its a great thing .
Althoug we shoot daily most of our courses are extremely practical .We are losing not more than 148 feets with 150 grains points .I ll publish an article soon about the matter.