No doubt 150 yards is a long ways for that bullet, Vapo. I've yet to shoot it cleanly into a deer at 75 yards or less--which is the distance I would prefer.

That doe I mentioned...I did get three follow-up shots into her when I went out to finish the job. Those shots were all through thick brush and were mostly "Texas heart shots." Hence, I wasn't real eager to recover one of those!

I will say this, though--that was exactly the situation I loaded the 170 grainers for--as much penetration as possible when a less than ideal situation was at hand

friar

p.s. I'll pm you later about the Wisconsin season.

quote:

Originally posted by JWK:
I hunt on my own land in central New York. There are some long shots, but like most parts around here everything is shot within 100 yards. Maybe closer. I am a meat hunter. I don't care about the size of antlers and my license will allow me one buck, one either and one doe. If I get lucky I will get another doe permit (about a 50/50 chance where I live).

I'm looking for the least meat damage, put down ability and recoil is a consideration (shoulder problems). I reload.

I have a headache from thinking so much.

What do you suggest? Thanks.

OK, the key point in all this is, "I'm looking for the least meat damage, put down ability and recoil is a consideration (shoulder problems)."

I can very well understand the shoulder problems so rifle and cartridge consideration is important. Without knowing what your recoil tolerance level is kind of makes it almost a case of the blind leading the blind so let's look at options. We can eliminate recoil by either going to little cartridges like the .243 or .257 Roberts. A 6MM Remington would work just as well I suppose. Of those three, I would choose the .257 shooting 100 gr. bullets. I have one and mine just does not like 120 gr. bullets.
The 30-30 is an option, but there is some difference between the Pre-64 and Post 64 models in the butt stock. The Pre-64s I have have a bit more drop to their stocks and it does accentuate recoil to some degree. If the 30-30 is the choice, I would go with the marlin, although I much prefer the Winchesters. Why? The Marlin is a heavier rifle than the Winchester and one way to help control recoil is more weight.
Based on my experience with the 7x57, I think it would be a good choice,IF you can find a rifle. If you're reasonably condifent in your shooting ability, I think Ruger still makes the #1 in 7x57 and maybe even the M77 MkII. Both would have enough weight to dampen recoil and Winchester's 145 gr. Power Point ammo has decent velocity and kills deer well. As a reloader, you can make up whatever recoil level you want whether just duplicating factory level at 2600 FPS or pushing a 140 gr. bullet to right at 2800 FPS with careful handloading. My Winchester M70 featherweight is not all that uncomfortable at the 2800 FPS level even with my arthritic shoulder and at 2800 FPS will do for deer to at least 300 yards, if I do my part.
I haven't played with the 260. Rem. or the 7MM08 but I did have a 6.5 swede for a while and the recoil was quite mild in the sporter I built up. I imagine either of those two with 140 gr. bullets would suit your purpose as long as you stayed away from the lighter weight guns.
I'll probably be using my 7x57 this year for my hunt with someone's 140 gr. bullet. It won't be the Ballistic Tip as the ones I have are the earlier type with the too fragile jackets. I'll use those for shooting coyotes. I might take a .270 I have that has some weight to it and stick to 130 gr. bullets although I've always used 150 gr. bullets in the past.
I'll be hunting the Kaibab National Forest this year for Mule Deer. After 29 years of trying for a tag, my ship finally came in. I got a buck tag.
The state is asking hunters who drew the either the Kaibab or the adjoining Arizona Strip to volunteer to use bullets like the Barnes TSX due to the fact that both areas are part of the Condor range. I've been up that way several times and never once have I ever seen a Condor.
The state is so insistant on this voluntary basis rather than make it a special zone like California, that they gave me a coupon to take to Sportsman's Warehouse and I can get either two free boxes of Federal or Winchester Premium ammo with barnes type bullets or if my gun's ammo doesn't come with those bullets, then I get a free box of Barnes TSX to work up a handload. I doubt that there will be any factory 7x57 ammo anyway with those bullets so I'll probably take some in .270, although I don't like the weight of that rifle. I'll just have to see what is available.
Paul B.

JWK,
The following information, suggestions and quotes are as good as you are going to get. The 30-30 was introduced in 1894, and available in 1895. It was designed for a lever action, specifically the Mod 94. The 6.5x55 precedes the 30-30 by a few years. It was designed for a bolt action rifle, and is a far superior cartridge in all respects, except being suitable for feeding in a Mod 94 Winchester, or the Marlin 336, or similar actions.

My suggestion is to get a CZ 550 in 6.5x55. With that rifle/cartridge combo you have all your bases covered. You suggested the possibility of a long shot, but mostly expected close range shots. The 6.5x55 is good for either, unlike the 30-30. Also, The CZ 550 has some weight, and a good recoil pad, and a stock that is much better designed for reducing the effect of recoil. Besides low recoil, you can expect the kind of accuracy and trajectory from such a rifle that you can take the 300 yard shot of a lifetime with conficence. And the heavy 6.5mm bullets (155/156 gr) with a fast twist like in the CZ, (8.7" twist as I remember), just doesn't get any better for a woods cartridge, and minimal meat damage.

The big bores such as the 45-70 or 44 mag. are the poorest choices in my opinion because of the trajectory, and for the 45-70 - recoil. The 44 Mag is very limited in range, and generally the selection of rifles available is limited, such as single shots or the Ruger, and a few lever actions. The most inaccurate rifle I ever owned, by far, was a Ruger bolt action in 44 magnum.

I suppose if you favor a lever action, then of course you are generally limited to a rimmed cartridge, or as in the case of the 35 Rem, a low pressure cartridge. In which case, the 30-30 or 35 Rem is the obvious choice.
However, Remington also makes or made a pump action in the 35 Rem, which would be a much better choice in my opinion than any lever action ever made.

KB

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-30_Winchester
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5x55_mm

quote:

Originally posted by JWK:
I hunt on my own land in central New York. There are some long shots, but like most parts around here everything is shot within 100 yards. Maybe closer. I am a meat hunter. I don't care about the size of antlers and my license will allow me one buck, one either and one doe. If I get lucky I will get another doe permit (about a 50/50 chance where I live).
I'm looking for the least meat damage, put down ability and recoil is a consideration (shoulder problems). I reload. I have a headache from thinking so much.
What do you suggest? Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by oldun:
There are several good cartridges that will work well and don't generate much recoil within the limitations you stipulate, my recommendation is the 6.5x55.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
For a recoil shy hunter, a 260 or 6.5x55 w/ 140grSP will kill very well out to 300yds & close range hits should provide less meat damage than 100gr 243 or similar.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana-be:
The Swede will deliver 160g at better than 2400 fps using only about 40-45g of powder. There isn't much that comes close to that in terms of SD, speed and recoil. The 308 will do it with a 220g, but it'll be that much more against your shoulder for no real reason.
Save your shoulder: use the lightest bullet that will do that job. In fact, a 140g .264 bullet would be fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Oday450:

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
For a recoil shy hunter, a 260 or 6.5x55 w/ 140grSP will kill very well out to 300yds & close range hits should provide less meat damage than 100gr 243 or sim.

That's my choice and I'm not recoil shy. It's a great whitetail choice. A Rem M700 Mtn rifle is light, easy to handle in brush or stand, and just feels right.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
OK, the key point in all this is, "I'm looking for the least meat damage, put down ability and recoil is a consideration (shoulder problems)."
I can very well understand the shoulder problems so rifle and cartridge consideration is important.
The 30-30 is an option, but there is some difference between the Pre-64 and Post 64 models in the butt stock. The Pre-64s I have a bit more drop to their stocks and it does accentuate recoil to some degree. If the 30-30 is the choice, I would go with the marlin, although I much prefer the Winchesters. Why? The Marlin is a heavier rifle than the Winchester and one way to help control recoil is more weight.
I did have a 6.5 swede for a while and the recoil was quite mild in the sporter I built up. I imagine either of those two with 140 gr. bullets would suit your purpose as long as you stayed away from the lighter weight guns.
Based on my experience with the 7x57, I think it would be a good choice. As a reloader, you can make up whatever recoil level you want whether just duplicating factory level at 2600 FPS or pushing a 140 gr. bullet to right at 2800 FPS with careful handloading.
Paul B.

If your shots are short < 100 yards, then you might look at getting a .44 Magnum rifle. Also the calibers already mention would be good for less meat damage, like the .35 Rem, .30-30, or even the .308 and .45-70.

For an answer that is " almost anything above 25 caliber, factory or reload" this thread has gathered a substantial amount of verbage. roger

Ain't it great. Awe, come on Roger, tell us your favorite deer cartridge, and share your opinion. Don't hold back.
KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Ain't it great. Awe, come on Roger, tell us your favorite deer cartridge, and share your opinion. Don't hold back.
KB

That's a little different than the intent of the thread, But;#1-250-3000 in a deep throated bolt action, #2-6.5 X 55 156gr bullet seated as far out as practcal. #3 a 7 X 57, scout w/ 19" barrel 150 to 175 gr. bullet

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Ain't it great. Awe, come on Roger, tell us your favorite deer cartridge, and share your opinion. Don't hold back.
KB

That's a little different than the intent of the thread, But;#1-250-3000 in a deep throated bolt action, #2-6.5 X 55 156gr bullet seated as far out as practcal. #3 a 7 X 57, scout w/ 19" barrel 150 to 175 gr. bullet

Excellent. I think the intent of this discussion is well served with your choices of mild-mannered & low-recoil cartridges, using heavy-for-caliber bullets.

The 6.5x55 and 7x57 are two of the oldest yet modern rimless sporting cartridges, and the 156 gr 6.5mm or 175 gr 7mm bullets at about 2400 fps makes about as good of woods deer cartridge as you can get, especially in a light and handy carbine.

The 260 and 7mm08 would be good choices too, but would probably be easier to deal with and better overall results using 120 gr and 150 gr bullets respectively. I don't have any experience with the 260 or 7mm08, but I don't recall reading of anyone using the heavy bullets with either. Must be a factory twist thing. But add'l speed is gonna result in better long range performance, with probably more meat damage up close. It's about choice, and any one of these cartridges, (250, 257, 6.x55, 260, 7-08, 7x57) allows for plenty of choices. Just choose one, and go hunting.

KB

If I were going to build a rifle dedicated to the purpose of which you speak, I'd think the old heavy-moderate/slow angle is the one to follow.

Maybe the 35 Whelen with 250 grain slugs at 2450 fps?

JWK, below is a chart you my find helpful. But you must remember that rifle weight, stock fix, stock design, recoil pad, height of the scope rings, and a tight chamber will affect felt recoil.
My personal favorites are in bold print.

Cartridge (Wb@MV) Rifle Weight Recoil energy Recoil velocity
.243 Win. (100 at 2960) 7.5 8.8 8.7
6mm Rem. (100 at 3100) 8.0 10.0 9.0
.243 WSSM (100 at 3100) 7.5 10.1 9.3
.25-35 Win. (117 at 2230) 6.5 7.0 8.3
.250 Savage (100 at 2900) 7.5 7.8 8.2
.257 Roberts (120 at 2800) 8.0 10.7 9.3
.25 WSSM (120 at 2990) 7.25 13.8 11.1
.25-06 Rem. (120 at 3000) 8.0 12.5 10.0
6.5x55 Swede (140 at 2650) 9.0 10.6 8.7
.260 Rem. (120 at 2860) 7.5 13.0 10.6
6.5mm-284 Norma (140 at 2920) 8.0 14.7 10.9
6.5mm Rem. Mag. (120 at 3100) 8.0 13.1 10.3
6.8mm Rem. SPC (115 at 2625) 7.5 8.0 8.3
7x57 Mauser (139 at 2800) 8.0 14.0 10.6
7mm-08 Rem. (140 at 2860) 8.0 12.6 10.1
.30-30 Win. (150 at 2400) 7.5 10.6 9.5
.30-30 Win. (170 at 2200) 7.5 11.0 9.7
.300 Sav. (150 at 2630) 7.5 14.8 n/a
.307 Win. (150 at 2600) 7.5 13.7 10.9
.308 Marlin Express (160 at 2660) 8.0 13.4 10.4
7.62x39 Soviet (125 at 2350) 7.0 6.9 8.0
.32 Spec. (170 at 2250) 7.0 12.2 10.6
8x57 Mauser (170 at 2360) 8.0 12.9 n/a
.357 Mag. (158 at 1650) 7.0 4.7 6.6
.35 Rem. (200 at 2050) 7.5 13.5 10.8
.44 Rem. Mag. (240 at 1760) 7.5 11.2 9.8
.45 Colt (255 at 1100) 8.0 4.0 5.6

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
If I were going to build a rifle dedicated to the purpose of which you speak, I'd think the old heavy-moderate/slow angle is the one to follow.

Maybe the 35 Whelen with 250 grain slugs at 2450 fps?

I have a 35 Whelen on a Mauser action with a 19" barrel that I really like. It shoots the Remington factory 200 gr ammo very accurately. I have not yet used it for deer hunting, but I plan to. I don't have a recoil issue though.

Another rifle that I really like and plan on putting into service for deer and hog hunting next season is a 8x57 that should be finished by then. I got a deal and bought maybe 1,000 Lapua 200 gr round nose mega .323 bullets about a year ago. I got several boxes of factory loaded Lapua 8x57 ammo from the same guy, with the same mega 200gr bullet. I didn't even know Lapua imported the stuff, but I have some of it. I'm really looking forward to taking it hog hunting in Texas.

KB

quote:

7x57 Mauser (139 at 2800) 8.0 14.0 10.6
7mm-08 Rem. (140 at 2860) 8.0 12.6 10.1

Something wrong there?

Interesting seeing the figures for the 300 Savage (identical to 303 Brit) and the 357 mag. The 357 mag at only 1500fps had more felt recoil than my 303 Brit. (But the 303 hit the forehead a lot harder!)

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

7x57 Mauser (139 at 2800) 8.0 14.0 10.6
7mm-08 Rem. (140 at 2860) 8.0 12.6 10.1

Something wrong there?

Interesting seeing the figures for the 300 Savage (identical to 303 Brit) and the 357 mag. The 357 mag at only 1500fps had more felt recoil than my 303 Brit. (But the 303 hit the forehead a lot harder!)

It could be. I got this info sometime ago from Rifle Recoil Table By Chuck Hawks.

I questioned the recoil of the 8x57 and the .35 Rem. I have rifles chambered for each of these calibers and the the felt recoil is a good bit more than the chart suggest.

quote:

Originally posted by ColeK:


Cartridge (Wb@MV) Rifle Weight Recoil energy Recoil velocity
6.5x55 Swede (140 at 2650) 9.0 10.6 8.7
.30-30 Win. (170 at 2200) 7.5 11.0 9.7
8x57 Mauser (170 at 2360) 8.0 12.9 n/a

With the mild underloaded factory 8x57 ammo, the above specs are probably correct, or close.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by JWK:

I am a meat hunter.

I would go with a Savage rifle. Cheap and accurate.

quote:

I'm looking for the least meat damage

Meat damage is greatly determined by the choice of bullet used and the location of the shot.

I suggest Barnes TSX bullets for little meat damage and no lead.

quote:

put down ability and recoil is a consideration (shoulder problems).

7mm-08 with a Sims Limsaver recoil pad.

My favorite whitetail caliber is 7X57, but the 30-30 would be an excellent choice.

IMO a scoped .308 with 150gr cup and core bullets in a decent weight firearm would fit the bill. I am assuming that you stand hunt so a 8-9 lb scoped rifle would work just fine.

You might consider a semi-auto with a good recoil pad.

I think the unofficial Maine deer rifle is the Remington pump action in 30 06 with the barrel lopped off to 18.5" and sporting a Lyman peep sight as made famous by the Bernier family of Maine and their Vermont counterparts, the Benoits. A finer group of whitetail trackers has never been known in these parts.

Everything I have used can do what you want.
From the lowly 22Hornet to the 45-70.

On the low end your problem is stopping the deer. The 22Hornet will kill a deer, but it doesn't stop them in their tracks unless you hit it in the head.

On the high end, the 45-70 will drop a deer in it's tracks, but it will hurt you. The beauty is the nice round hole you can eat up to.

I have seen what the 7mm mag, and 300 mag will do to a deer. They drop the deer, but mess up the meat.

Based on your requirements, I would use a Marlin 44mag/45LC. Or load a 308 or 30-06 down and use 165gr case lead solids.

And for a different take - for up to 100 yards, minimal meat damage and drop-on-the-spot, there's nothing like a patched round ball from a decent .62 muzzleloading rifle. Vastly satisfying, and recoil is pretty mild, too.