The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles I have a few questions for the expertsGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I’d first like to make a disclosure. I am no gun or ballistics expert. I have a dilemma (it’s a good dilemma). Based on last years drawings odds, I’m about 75% sure I’ll draw a Utah sheep tag. I have several rifles to choose from but will probably by a new gun for this hunt. I’m looking more of a light weight rifle than what I currently have. I’m looking at the Brown Hells Canyon model. I’m a big Browning fan and this looks like it might be what I’m looking for. I would really like a .300 Win Magnum. It has been my favorite caliber in the past. However, if I purchase it, there are not a lot of factory ammunition options. I would really like to test different ammunition before I settle on something. There is little availability with this caliber in regards to ‘premium’ options. Therefore, I’m actually considering buying a .308 instead. I want to get comfortable and confident shooting out to 500 yards. There is currently a lot of different ammunition options in this caliber. What do you think? Should I go with the .308? Do any of you have experience with the new(er) Browning Hells Canyon? Thank you! | ||
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7mm Rem Mag. Definitely not a 308 and for a sheep, 30 caliber is not needed, but if you like recoil in a light mountain rifle, it certainly will work. I'd also consider 6.5/264s. | |||
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An expert could certainly do it with a 308 ! Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Jason, Many moons ago I bought a Mod 7 in 308 specifically for a sheep hunt. My load was 150 NBT at 2650 fps. It worked perfectly. The gun was feather light to carry and the sheep died. Like others have said "get closer". Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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The first time I hunted in Kyrgyzstan I was surprised to learn how popular the 308 was with Marco Polo sheep and Ibex guides. They considered it perfect for all mountain game. Likewise a high percentage of African PH's love it as well. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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A 308 win is plenty to 500 yards Plus, as you say a much better selection of factory ammunition. Even a 308 pushing a 180 grain bullet with a decent BC @ 2550 muzzle vel is still delivering over 1350 foot lbs and traveling over 1800 fps. I personally would pick a 165/168 in a mon0metal bullet that shot good out of the rifle. Then I would get access to a chronograph and chrono the load. Then I would look up minimum impact velocity for that bullet and run the velocity through the ballistics calculator and set my maximum distance for say ~75 fps above minimum. I would then build a life size sheep target with a 10 inch circle on the vitals and head to the desert and practice, practice, practice. You may find that your own shooting skills will be the limitation not the cartridge. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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It's not the power; it's the drop at 500 yards. | |||
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Knowing the drop, hence the comments regarding the chrono and the ballistics calculator:  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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There is no doubt you are correct on that! Great advice! Tom: Thank you for the advice. My issue with the 7mm is ammo availability. I know that I should be reloading but given my track record and newness to reloading, I will probably not do it. I have a 7mm Short and a .280 REM. They would likely do great. Also, I hope I can get much closer than 500 yards! 100 yards would be ideal!! | |||
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I don't know how much an out of state license for sheep costs but I can't imagine that it's cheap. And Jason is planning to buy a new rifle. As much as I like the 308 Win, I would pick a cartridge that shoots a little flatter for a once in a life time hunt. I would opt for the 7mm Rem Mag, 264 Win Mag, 300 Win Mag or something along those lines. 500 yards is a long ways to shoot at animals, a lot of things can happen while that bullet is in flight. | |||
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Then take your 280. Of course, MD is right; knowing the trajectory and range is vital no matter what the cartridge; all of them drop like stones at 500 yards. Firing 240s (7.62mm 150 grain) from tanks is like a rainbow, at 500 meters. Of course, we have one in 5, tracers. Just start reloading; it's easy. | |||
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I’m regretting using the word 500 yards. I sure hope I get closer and I’m sure I will  I appreciate the encouragement to reload. My best friend passed away in 2010 and his Widow called me about 1-2 years back and told me to come and get his reloader and supplies. There was a press, powder, and 200 pieces of .280 brass. Thanks to Tom’s comments and a very nice PM from Mike D., I’m going to do some reloading. I think I’m going to try my 7mm, .280, and possibly look at a lightweight braked gun and see which of the 3 I like best. I realize that this will be a once in a life time opportunity when and if I draw this year. Between the gear I’ll need to purchase and the guide fee (I certainly want a guide for this area and my first sheep hunt) it will not be cheap but will be well worth it. Thank you. | |||
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which sheep? mountain sheep are at best the size of a dry mule deer doe. the desert sheep can be some bigger, but not enough bigger than a big mule deer to get all worked up about. I'd take what I got and spend the new rifle money on some good boots. | |||
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A big part of the hunt for me is the prep. Just returned from a successful Brown Bear hunt. Practiced and practiced shooting. Shot my bear at 30'. Now working on a 300 Win mag load (light Cooper rifle) for my son Dall sheep hunting in 2 years. Probably have worked up 10 loads so far from 168 TTSX to 200 Accubonds. Wearing out my Ohler 35 and paper targets. Having good results. Pushing the 168 TTSX at +3300 and the 200 accubonds at 3040. Both this loads shooting 3/8" to 3/4" C-C. Love reloading and experimenting. Believe RL 22 with both pellets. Still more to test! | |||
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Lamar: Desert Sheep Yeah, I have some equipment buy. I have Zamberlein boots but may go to a new pair or might go with some Crispi’s. I’m going to start with a Ruger Hawkeye .280. It’s been my sons gun but he rarely hunts | |||
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A fellow in a gun shop once asked me if I had a choice would I pick a scoped 300 wBy as opposed to a 30-30 iron sighted and a pair of binocs... Strange question, but I said Id take the 30-30 and the binoculars..but felt either answer would work well enough, most to the sheep and goats Ive seen have not been the fabled long shots or didn't work out that way as I dismissed long the long shot and used the sneak..the only two desert sheep I shot was ions ago in mexico with a 25-35 Win also shot a bear with it on that ranch, all within 50 to 75 yards. I think the 06 or 270 would be ideal in your case..The .308 fits in there as well.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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One of the best rifles I have ever owned was a Browning X-bolt in .308 (the 'varmint' model with a 24" barrel). It shot Barnes 150 grain TTSX factory loads into well under an inch and chronographed a bit over 2900 fps out of my rifle. I took it to Namibia in 2016 and had great success on everything from Kudu and Hartebeest on down at ranges up to 250+ yards, which is as far as I care to try on live game. My two cents. | |||
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Yes. And I would argue time-of-flight, which adds the variable of wind-effect. | |||
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Though a.308 Win could be used, it is not obviously a long-range rifle. Unless you always remember to check distance with a rangefinder that also takes account of angle and the calibre you're using, try to get the flattest-shooting calibre you can, so you don't have to get it shooting inches high on mid-range shots. On flat ground this is no big deal but it can be one on steep shots, when your bullets might go over the back if you aim at the middle of a sheep's chest. For this reason I would get a 270 Win or (better with factory ammo) a 270 WSM and zero it at 200 yards. With the latter, at least, this can mean only being 1.2 inches high at 100. It will only be about 6-7 inches low at 300 yard, less if shooting up or down. | |||
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Best wishes on your hunt. Please remember to include the distance/range of your dead sheep in your hunt report. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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I'd have to say that the 270 WSM or the 280 AI are about the perfect blend of low recoil and flat trajectory "potentially" requires on a sheep hunt. IMHO. Those who say "stalk closer" have never hunted deep canyons or slickrock canyons of our desert for sheep. Certainly some sheep will be too far for a shot but under the right conditions (where warranted) and with the right skillset, 500 isn't too far unless you're stuck in the '50's Maybe you won't have to shoot 500 yards. Hell Jason, maybe YOU can't shoot 500 yards but shoot a ton and find what you're comfortable with. Hone your craft and let the others go slid a Biden! I get tired of those who can't, telling those who can, that it ethically can't be done. I say to them "shoot more, type less, get better shit". I was shooting after lunch today and I'm back to work for an extra hour. No big deal. Zeke | |||
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Gotta praise you Ray...to me, the sneak is the very best part of a hunt..Wonder if some long range worshippers know what we are talking about? | |||
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Jason, there are many many factory loads in 300 WM...I wouldn't worry about making that part of your selection criteria. A 300 would be better in the winds found in the mountains as well. | |||
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I’m going to feel really if I do not draw now! If the same amount of people apply, that applied last year and if the same amount of tags are given out, there will be five applicants and four tags. Now, back to the topic. I would not feel comfortable at this point shooting 500 yards. If I get to the point that I can shoot farther than what I currently shoot, and I absolutely cannot get closer I will. With that said, I’d really hope that this thread does not evolve into a long range debate. I’ve enjoyed reading the comments, all of them. I am amazed at the knowledge of our members here. I can say at this point, the .308 is out. I like the caliber but I’m about 99% sure I will go with my .280 or .300. I’m still a bit worried about the availability of ammunition and reloading supplies. I have plenty of time, however. Biebs: You make some great point! Zeke: I’d enjoy talking to you about your sheep hunts. Sounds like you have a lot of sheep experience. | |||
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Any ole time. I love talking "sheep". I've been damn blessed to do it a bit over the past 4+ decades. I'm headed to the desert in a few days to help a cousin on his sheep hunt. My Bro should draw next year but we already have an out-of-country sheep trip booked so he might put it off a year. LMK if you can ever get to AF (I'll assume you know the town) and we can meet up face to face. Zeke | |||
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Drop means what in today's shooting world? High end ultra accurate rangfinders are the norm in sheep hunting and ultra high end rifle optics equipped with turrets are also common place in today's hunting. This makes the up and down much different then just a couple decades ago. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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[/QUOTE] Drop means what in today's shooting world? High end ultra accurate rangfinders are the norm in sheep hunting and ultra high end rifle optics equipped with turrets are also common place in today's hunting. This makes the up and down much different then just a couple decades ago.[/QUOTE] Drop means the least in today's world and the easiest to judge and compensate. WIND!!!! Wind drift, spin drift, Coriolis effect plays a more important roll and worst, a compounding combination of the above. Of course, rounding out the number one position is the shooter and his abilities and sound judgement of when to shoot and not to shoot. We (meaning me) will ALWAYS try to get as reasonably close as possible and one must realize that there are simply some shots which should NOT be taken even at reasonable ranges because condition are not conducive. Yes guys, I bow hunt so I understand the "sneak" and always appreciate a good stalk whether bow or rifle. With that said "be prepared" and work on your skills or suffer the consequences of poor ability, poor judgement and poor performance. Zeke | |||
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I hunted Alaska 12 years and started using my 338 win mag and at first I thought it was perfict till I hunted the tundra and the mountains .I kept seeing Everything I wanted to shoot at 350 to 500 yards and my 338 win mag just dropped too much for those kinda ranges .I bought the then new 338-378 and put a Nikon 6.5x20 power scope on it .I had my long range Alaska rifle and it was under 10 pounds and man does it shoot good 1.5 inches groups at 350 yards and lots of energy .It boosted my confidence big time .Its funny I had used my 338 win mag on deer out to 425 yards but I just didn't trust it on moose past 300 yards .Its mostly in what you have faith in the most and can shoot the most accurate with .I still use my 338 win mag but just favor the 338-378 weatherby for long range stuff.I just would feel handicapped with a 308 for sheep hunting you would have to limit your shots to way closer than a 300 win mag .You must have long range accuracy and flat shooting for sheep hunting .If your paying that much for a desert sheep hunt I would want the flattest shooting most accurate rifle I could tote . | |||
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^^^^^^^^^^^^This (my emphasis). | |||
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338 Win Mag 225 TTSX 2800 FPS (factory spec) Zeroed at 200 Wind of 15 mph 300 = -7.3 Wind 7.6 400 = -20.8 Wind 13.9 500 = -41.4 Wind 22.4 600 = -70.0 Wind 33.2 30-378 225 TTSX 3050 fps (est. based on Barnes load data) Zeroed @ 200 wind of 15 mph 300 = -16.0 Wind 6.6 400 = -17.1 Wind 12.1 500 = -34.1 Wind 19.6 600 = -57.6 Wind 29 If using dial turrets the maximum difference in clicks is 8 With a BDC type reticle; i.e., fixed hash marks at specified subtensions you are looking at about a 10% difference in yardage. For example, if your scope has a hash mark at 7.8 MOA the difference is 551 yards vs. 498 yards. Each person will draw their own conclusions about practical difference versus psychological difference and the importance of confidence and whether the actual performance will be of a practical difference or is more of a psychological comfort. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Sounds good Zeke. | |||
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Yep the 308 is not a long range cartridge when compared to the 6.5 Credmoor wonder child   Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I have to wonder about that. We got guys on this thread talking high end ultra accurate equipment, ballistics tables, variations in ammunition, Coriolis effect, etc etc. And you are talking learning to reload which is a whole nother ball game. (I highly recommend you do just to be clear, the bullet availability can help you to fast track your goals.) Then you have load development to spend time on, if you want to be accurate at range then chronographing will be essential. THEN you can begin working on extending your range through practice and mastery of your equipment. And at 500+ yards learning to read the wind is going to be essential. That is a lot of stuff to become proficient at. I think the 280 is an excellent caliber to help you along the way IF your 280 is an accurate rifle. But the greater point is to give yourself as much advantage in achieving your end goals as possible right out of the gate and to be realistic about your goals. Because if you want bang, flop performance on demand at great distances, you have a lot of work to do in a years time to get there. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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The sex appeal of the Creedmore is factory accuracy with factory ammunition. The same things that people have been bored with about the 308 for a couple decades. Go figure.  AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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What a crock, comparing the 270,280, 7 mag etc to a .308, with a proper load a 308 at 2900 plus with a 150 gr. bullet will walk tall with those calibers both in velocity, killing power, and trajectory to the effect that not one of you could tell the difference in the field. check your figures and quit using heresay  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I’m not worried about shooting 500+ yards because I will not be shooting at 500+ yards. I believe that I do have enough time but we will see. I will be fine shooting factory ammunition as well if the reloading is unsuccessful. I will say that I do appreciate all the advice and the best part about it is that ultimately I am the one responsible for the decision. Getting prepared for a hunt is part of the fun. | |||
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There is always a question about a “proper load” for any given rifle,,, can it hit a barn at 100 yards let alone hit an animal at 500 yards. “proper loads” that can hit the target may only be a fraction of the cartridges true potential. | |||
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Shot my dall with a 270 WSM, 130 grain accu bond. Worked perfect. NRA Patron member | |||
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Its not the power as one poster sez, its not the drop as another claims, at least not for me, it is the damn WIND at those long ranges and the 308 is as good as anything else, but above all get within 200 yards of your sheep and beware of that evil "updraft" in the rough sheep and goat country. You will learn that updraft when shooting rockchucks in the Snake River canyon of Idaho...  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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