When did the English cartidge and firearms trade move away from cordite to actual smokeless powder.

When you say large guns and munitions do you mean sporting rifles or large field guns?

I wonder why Holland and Holland post WWI cases did not move away from the cordite case design the 300 HH Belted Rimless/300 Super specifically? I understand using the belted case, but they had no reason not to Norma, Weatherby, or Winchester the belted case.

Thank you ALF.

The speed of the developement were mindblowing in Sweden the military 1867 rolling block 12,17mm*42rf(44cf) were available also to civilians for hunting and target shooting, the next thing coming to civilian use were the much more modern 6,5*55 m1896 with smokeless powder(the military also had a smaller number of 10mm 1884 and 8mm*58rd 1887). Civilian developed firearms were to expensive for most Swedes when the oldest son could choose between the farm or their rifle(or moose traps).

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
When did the English cartidge and firearms trade move away from cordite to actual smokeless powder.

Probably more correct to say move away from cordite to the granular nitro powders. Cordite was a smokeless powder.

Based on the packets of Kynoch ammunition I have for my .404 which were manufactured 30 January 1963 and have a glued on advisory on the front of the packets indicating that rifles sighted for cordite would need re-zeroing for nitro powder (these cartridges contain a load of standard Nobel granular powder), the move away from cordite may have started in the 60's.

The dropping of cordite probably occurred at different times depending on the manufacturing runs for the range of cartridges made by Kynoch. I'm guessing the 404 Jeffery was one of the most commonly loaded big bore cartridges by Kynoch so probably gives a good indication of when the change to granular nitro was made. I have heard that some of the really big bores e.g. the 600 NE, were still being loaded with cordite when Kynoch ceased manufacturing sporting ammunition in 1972.

.404 ammunition manufactured 30 January 1963 loaded with Nobel No.1 granulated powder.

I used the verbiage I did because Cordite is nitro based, but is not a powder or at least not granular. You are most correct in description between to two. Thank you for clearing the language/jargon. Words do matter.

Cordite will also burn wet.

Thank you for he Vintage box. It would not be long after that box Kynock would be out of the ammo businesses.

Was it plummeting demand that caused Kynoch to cease sporting ammunition production?

No. Market demand for old cartridges fell; everyone wanted a Weatherby.
Read this; it will outline the entire history of Cordite and other nitro based propellants.
http://firearmshistory.blogspo...okeless-powders.html
As for Cordite, there was no reason for it to exist in "cord" form; that was just because the British want to be eccentric. Everyone else made it in sheets, flakes, or chopped it into little pieces. The long pieces of cordite was easier to make, but you had to insert it into the base before necking it.

Thank you dpcd.

Tom, I once opened an old .303 round packed with the spaghetti strands of cordite. It was interesting stuff, and handling it gave me a headache.

Here is a fascinating report by a British army doctor in 1903 regarding soldiers who regularly ate cordite.

https://militaryhealth.bmj.com...amc/1/4/277.full.pdf

I admit, when I was a kid I liked to chew on those black powder, plastic caps for pop guns.

But why would one eat cordite?

B/O. Thank you for the report.

Eating Cordite was a cure for STDs; better than eating Mercury, also a cure.

Eagle27 very useful information. Haven’t seen a Kynoch 404J box with that warning.

Eating Cordite! Sheesh!

I think the stick cordite originated from use in artillery cannon and shells. Much easier to keep a bag of long stick powder in shape to feed into the chamber of an artillery piece behind the projectile rather than a bag of grain powder. Also many artillery shells are straight or near enough to it so the straight stick cordite worked well enough.

Have been told by an ex-serviceman in the transport corp that during the war they used to use stick cordite from shells to boil water in their thermettes for a brew. These were a large tin jug with a hole up the middle which could be packed with wood sticks or anything that burned and would boil water contained in the wrap around water jacket. The thermette sits in a tin can so any flammable liquid can be use too.
I imagine the cordite got things boiling rather quickly.
Still available and in use today, of course flash looking stainless steel now but sadly cordite no longer available

One of my jobs in my life was managing the production of tank ammunition for AMCCOM, (Now JMC). I had to purchase the propellant, projectile, cartridge case, from different places, and have it loaded, assembled, and packed (LAP). Just like reloading, but it was all on a computer. The propellant was M30, like really big IMR powder.
Then we went to the M256, 120mm cannon; those use either the big IMR pieces, or Sticks, much like cordite.
Not because they are easier to load; they aren't.
BTW, some of the 120mm Sabot rounds go well over 5000 fps, and operate at almost 100K psi. How? Steel cases and screwed in electric primers. Cases are about 6 inches long. The rest is painted, compressed, propellant.

I have always looked a bit askance about the truth of mercury or cordite as a cure for STD as much as the 19th-century idea that a "Fresh" ( a virgin girl) was a cure as well. Eating cordite was used by soldiers to give them a fever + grey completion to avoid duty as well as the old habit of soaping armpits + not washing it off to get the same results. (Or so I've been told).

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Tom, I once opened an old .303 round packed with the spaghetti strands of cordite. It was interesting stuff, and handling it gave me a headache.

Here is a fascinating report by a British army doctor in 1903 regarding soldiers who regularly ate cordite.

https://militaryhealth.bmj.com...amc/1/4/277.full.pdf

A strange, interesting story but I only got half way through it. Is that where they got the idea of using nitroglycerine as medicine for people with dicky tickers?

Mercury was one of the common medicines used by doctors up to the 20th century. I have done research on it; it actually worked; but they didn't know about other negative impacts. The doctor would give mercury pills until the gums started to turn blue; then stop.
All that is where the saying that the cure was worse than the disease came from. To anyone who says they wish they were born in a different century I say; Think Antibiotics.
Surgery, OTOH, was very advanced; problem was they did not know about blood types, or even that germs caused disease or infection. Even Walt Whitman wrote a poem about the Wound Dresser; he was one in the Civil war; he took a bucket and a sponge and went from patient to patient, cleaning wounds. And spreading sepsis as they went; no idea.
Of course only British soldiers had access to Cordite and all manner of nonsense comes from groups of soldiers.

quote:

Of course only British soldiers had access to Cordite and all manner of nonsense comes from groups of soldiers.

Indeed.

dpcd: Good post wrt medicine. I remember having read about: "Puss. Laudable puss!"

The idea was that sepsis was so common that it was considered part of normal healing. And if a wound was healing by first-intention (without puss), a surgeon might open it and rub ashes in to promote "puss — laudable puss!"

I appreciate everyone’s responses on this thread. Each one taught me something.

Thank you all.

Tom, a good read that involves a lot of mercury is "Bring Out Your Dead," about the Yellow Fever Epidemic of 1793 in Philadelphia. Dr. Benjamin Rush was famous for his "bleed and purge" therapy -- bleed the patient and use mercury -- calomel, or mercury chloride-- taken internally or as an enema to purge the fever. Gad!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Tom, a good read that involves a lot of mercury is "Bring Out Your Dead," about the Yellow Fever Epidemic of 1793 in Philadelphia. Dr. Benjamin Rush was famous for his "bleed and purge" therapy -- bleed the patient and use mercury -- calomel, or mercury chloride-- taken internally or as an enema to purge the fever. Gad!

Yup. “Rush’s Pills” they called them. The corps of discovery ate them like candy.

This thread is one of the most interesting, perhaps the most, I have read here on AR.
Cal

Does anybody know the chemical composition of Cordite?

I know it is some combination of Nitrocellulose and gun cotton.

Yes, I know; it varied over time; originally it was 58% pure Nitroglycerin, 5% petroleum jelly and the rest nitrocellulose (guncotton). This is more Nitroglycerin than Dynamite. The very high Nitro level was later reduced to about 30% because it was eating up barrels. Still did;
Also, the British changed rifling from Henry to Enfield, with it's much wider grooves, to counter that.
Cordite was nasty stuff, highly erosive and hard to load into shells. I posted a picture of it in another thread; here it is again. It is a 1950 MK VII ball cartridge, I have cases of it and it is totally reliable. That wad is .364 in diameter; the cases were loaded with the propellant and wad, then necked. They used it because they invented it and would not change when the rest of the world was using flake or IMR type propellants.

Interesting Norm, I can see where a fresh virgin girl could cure a lot of problems..beats eating cordite I suspect..

Not sure what you just posted but the picture takes up tens of pages of width and length and is unrecognizable at least on my mac.

Some suggested reading in regards to manufacture of cordite and the .303.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Yes, I know; it varied over time; originally it was 58% pure Nitroglycerin, 5% petroleum jelly and the rest nitrocellulose (guncotton). This is more Nitroglycerin than Dynamite. The very high Nitro level was later reduced to about 30% because it was eating up barrels. Still did;
Also, the British changed rifling from Henry to Enfield, with it's much wider grooves, to counter that.
Cordite was nasty stuff, highly erosive and hard to load into shells. I posted a picture of it in another thread; here it is again. It is a 1950 MK VII ball cartridge, I have cases of it and it is totally reliable. That wad is .364 in diameter; the cases were loaded with the propellant and wad, then necked. They used it because they invented it and would not change when the rest of the world was using flake or IMR type propellants.

That is great info.

I greatly appreciate the readings provided by Jen Poulsen. I especially enjoyed the Dum-Dum section. The last paragraph indicates the British were bonding/soldering bullets.

Yes, now I can read it; it mentions another factor about propellents that I forgot to mention; Blending.
When a propellant of any type is manufactured, it never comes out exactly the burn rate that it was intended. Not sure why. Maybe more sorcery than science. But different lots are blended to obtain that uniform burn rate. Of course, in a factory ammo situation, you just alter the charge weight, but for commercial sale as a specific propellant, it must perform just like every other lot of it made, in it's history. That is obtained by blending lots.
Very hard to do with cordite, although they do mention it when making up the "ropes".

The method described in the materials provided gives me the impression making/manufacturing Cordite to be hands on mixing nitroglycerin with gun cotton by hand.

Was Cordite more likely to cause a manufacturing disaster (blow up) during manufacturing than other nitro based propellants then available?

Would it not have been practical to cut the chords into smaller rods?

Cordite and the history of the .303 is inexorably linked together. Then John Rigby who was head of the commission who developed the .303 comes into play too. Then Elis Metford who invented the Metford and enfield rifling must be metioned and so on and on.
In many hunting and gun books from the 1890-1900s authors describe the transition period from blackpowder to smokeless propelled gun and what it let to in their weapon of choice. Some didnt trust the cordite ammunition and still favorited blackpowder hammerguns all the way up to 1914.

One of the techniques for loading was to have a coil of Cordite in a room separate from the loaders; it was fed through a hole in the wall, and chopped off to fit each cartridge case. That way if there was a fire or explosion, its would not kill the operators. We still do that in our plants today. Roofs are wood, walls are concrete, and widely separated. So an explosion won't propagate.
I have read about people who were highly suspicions of the new powder and stuck with black powder for years after. Especially shotgun shooters.