I'm going to get started building a whelen on an 03 action. I'm pretty sure I know my own awnser but I'd like to get others opinions on standard Vs. AI

thanks

turfman

FWIW, I went throught same exercise a few years ago. Because my gunsmith is a friend and 35 Whelen AI fan, I went along with his advice. I found that I was only getting about 50 fps more than the standard with a 24" bbl. For the amount of work it took to fire form the brass and the extra powder and pressures, I decided that if I were to do it again, I would go with the standard Whelen. I sold the rifle at a gunshow. Lou

I've had a 35 Whelen AI on an "03 action for about 10 years now. Had it custom built with a Shilen #4 22" barrel. Using RL-15 and a Hornady 250 bullet I get a chronographed velocity of 2675 fps. I've never chronographed regular 35 Whelen loads so I can't say how much improvement that is, but it is equivalent to 338 Win. Mag factory loads. I can provide details if you're interested.

Turf
If you're looking for foot pounds not feet per second look at a 9.3x62

Had a 9,3, it came and went. Why did it go. I have no idea, just didn't like it.

2675fps for a 250grn bullet sounds good; any idea of the energy.

I'm building this gun for exactly a 250grn bullet but with a 24" barrel.

Lou was there any reason you could think of that you were only getting 50fps above standard.


turfman

quote:

Lou was there any reason you could think of that you were only getting 50fps above standard.

At equal pressure that is pretty much the norm. 1% velocity for 4% capacity. So 25-50fps. Sure you will see high velocity posted. The AI case does an excellent job of hiding pressure signs to the last minute.

The 50 fps increase sounds about right.

In my Whelen, I'm getting 2615-2640 fps with 57 gr of RL15, 250 gr Hornadys and a 23" barrel.

If I heat it up a little to 59.5 grs of RL15, I'm at 2675-2700 fps but case life is bad and I get nervous.

I've had one for about 3 years. 250 Partitions at 2720 fps with plenty of pressure {winter load only} 25" bbl. It's right at 4000 ft/lbs. I probably would'nt do it again. Most combonations were in the low/mid 2600 fps range. You could probably push the pressures up a little on the standard Whelen and be plenty happy and not mess with all the fire forming. Ball C{2} and Rem 9.5 primers are the best combo so far.

I owned and shot a 35 Whelen AI for years. It was PITA to form cases and produced little over the standard 35 Whelen. I'd never go the 35 Whelen AI again.
The standard 35 Whelen is just fine as is.

Don

quote:

I've had a 35 Whelen AI on an "03 action for about 10 years now. Had it custom built with a Shilen #4 22" barrel. Using RL-15 and a Hornady 250 bullet I get a chronographed velocity of 2675 fps. I've never chronographed regular 35 Whelen loads so I can't say how much improvement that is, but it is equivalent to 338 Win. Mag factory loads. I can provide details if you're interested.

26" barrel. R15, 250 Horn. bullets seated out to 3.4" 2700 fps, case life? ...... havent retired any yet after 7-8 fireings. Love the rifle and load.

I love the 35 whelen AI. I've built 2 so far for myself. My first one was on an 03a3 action and it got stolen, my latest is on a 98 action, with an A&B barrel, shoots .750" groups @100 yards. with 225gr. pills, using H380. One of these days I'll have to run it across a crono just to see what it is doing. In less you're shooting a 25-35, or a 30-40 c, I dought you're going to see much of an increase in velocity.

If you really want to juice up the Whelen go to the 35 Brown/Whelen. It is basicaly a imp whelen with the shoulder moved forward resulting in more powder room than the imp version & a shorter neck.

I don't understand this PITA fireforming business? I have a 223 Rem AI, and chamber, then fire regular ammo and PRESTO it's automatically changed into the AI configuration. How can this NOT happen with the Whelen AI?

Although I must agree with D Humbarger that having a shorter neck would be beneficial in getting the most out of the '06 size case. I wished I'd have had a 338 Hawk\Scovill made instead of the 338-06AI. Such a long neck just isn't needed. But then again, anything other than the AI chamber cannot fire the original factory spec ammo.

quote:

I wished I'd have had a 338 Hawk\Scovill made instead of the 338-06AI.

The Hawk series is better than the AI. I does give you some extra capacity over the AI. The Howell series from AHR moves the shouldere further forward still. Or the on Rocky Gibbs series.

Here is a comparison of the various versions. The Howell is a 2.6" case same as a 66 case. I did this quickly a while back by moving the neck out on a 338 drawing and didn't move the AI neck back so it is a little off.


Here is a 280 and 340 Version of the PDK with teh parent 280 case. I have a 375 & 411 laying on the bench. The 411 will use cylinder brass the 375 will still be 280 brass necked up. Withe the long 375 bullets in a 06 length magazine a longer neck give you no increase in net capacity. Likewise that long neck on the 66 case only gives you that little area in the shoulder for net gain. However even with the larger capacity cases I've still seen increases in the 1 for 4 range. Just thant my case or the other longer cases give more capacity increase than the AI and still gain the reduced body taper.

Turfman, like others have stated most have only seen slight improvement over the standard 35. If I used hot loads I could get 75-80 extra fps (225 Sierras) the bolt started getting sticky. Perhaps it was just my rifle and barrel but didn't find it worth the risk to do it again. The basic 35 works just fine as is. Lou

I shoot a .35 Brown Whelen. 2700fps with 250gr nos/par is a hot load in my rifle with a 22" barrel and now load to 2650fps for hunting and better accuracy. Not enough gain over the standard whelen to justify the added cost of dies, smith, and case forming.
As a standard 35 Whelen I was getting 2550fps with the same 250 nos.
Case life is better with the Brown but a guy would have to shoot an awful lot to make that pay for the other costs.
Stick with the 35 Whelen. Its great just as is.

I shoot a whelen standard chamber.
But I have had a couple other rounds AIed.
Never though fire forming was any trick at all.
If you add 50FPS with a .243 and a 100 grain bullet it does,nt change much.
I don't want to go look it up but I bet 50 FPS with a .358 250 grain bullet adds as much energy s a 38 special has at the muzzle.
I think a whelen on a springfield AIed or not is a cool idea.
I may build one one day to go with my Roberts on a springfield.
...tj3006

Well I thought so.

Seems there are some outlandish postings of velocities in this caliber. I'm not saying I don't buy it; but it just seemed redundant to get a benifit worthwile out of a 4-6% added cartridge capacity.

Now that I settled this one for myself; what do you guys think of the 375H&H AI.

I'll say at first that I believe it could be a benefit over the standard version. I also have a 17 enfield action thats going to be something bigger. I know somebody is gonna say chamber it to 375 weatherby; but that just wouldn't look right in a classic stock.

turfman

I had one of those also; however, it was a 375 Weatherby - very similar to the AI version. I got about 75-100 fps gain. You can buy headstamped brass for it and it will shoot 375 H&H. I still don't think it's worth it, but that's my opinion. It has such a slight shoulder that it really dosen't look like a WBY. Lou

I decided to look it up.
the added 50FT of velocity with a 250 grain bullet is not quite 100 FPE difference.
Some guys might get more than 50 , if you get 100 you are only adding about 180 FPE. Not sure if thats a good reason to AI the whelen.
a little more shoulder and longer case life.
its up to the shooter I guess...tj3006

If a std.35Wh aints enough, next logical step to me is >>> the Uber-MediumBore 9.3x64B...just buy your (100)RWS cases and be done with it!

All fire forming is a PITA, if you don't get something to show for your efforts. With the 35 Whelen AI, you don't get zip for your efforts.
That little bit extra velocity you do get is like a grain of sand on a beach.

Several well known gun writers has made rifles in the .35 Whelen, then rechambered then to the .35 Whelen AI. Every last one of them, to my knowledge has said that if they had to do it all over again, they would stick with the standard .35 Whelen. I think this does send a message.
As far as improving the .375 H&H, well Roy Weatherby did that many years ago. I figure that if I were to go that route, I just might as well go with the Weatherby round and let it go at that. Frankly, I see no reason to improve the .375 H&H. Kind of like Murphy's second law. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." That goes for the .375 H&H and the .35 Whelen. JMHO.
Paul B.

After reading a lot about the Hawk line of cartridges, and this question, here is my stance. If I were building a push fed 35 Whelen, I'd go for the AI, not for the extra capacity but for the sharper shoulder/headspacing. As I understand if from z-hat, with a CRF like the 03, its not as much of a problem so in this case I'd just go with the standard 35 Whelen