Many Americans hunt with the .300 Winnie as a "big improvement" over the perennial -'.06. But look at the Federal Cartridge Ballistic Tables. If you compare the Federal High Energy Premium -'06 with their Classic .300 Win load in 180gr, the difference is hardly worth mentioning. 20fps at 300yds. 45ft/lbs of energy at 300yds. .2" drop at 300yds. My point? You have a better all-around caliber in the -'06, as it can be down-loaded or up-loaded to classic .300Win loads.

BusPilot! I thought you were a 7x57 fan! If you start comparing other calibers you will wind up buying one!

Then, compare the heavy mag 300 load to the light mag '06 and there you go, you're back to 200 FPS at 300 yds. The 300 just does everything the '06 does 100 yards closer. If you want to do comparisons at least keep it semi-equal, otherwise you sound like a democrat polling expert.

By the way, I hunt with both, as well as a 308. The 300 is for when I'm hunting at longer ranges with 165 gr. loads and I actually use the heavier 180 gr. loads in the '06 most of the time.

Uh, Dogger, umm, ya got me pal! That post was a while ago! Still a 7x57 nut, but, looking to get my son (13)his first hunting rifle. We will be doing Africa in '04. In regard to the second post, you had me cracking up on the polster comparison! Don't most guys shoot the 180gn in the .300 Win for an all-around load? Wasn't tryin' to get tricky or deceitful, just making a point. Ya gotta start somewhere where there's level ground.

Too get the benifet of the 300 winnie you must have a 26" barrel.
Compare the balistics of the 300 win with the 06 and it will be worth it!
fireball

In the interest of disclosere, my .30 caliber rifle is a 30-06.

However, I don't think it's particularly fair to compare a high energy load in one caliber to a standard load in another caliber.

Now having said that, I hope to stay out of this debate - it might get a tad hot...

buspilot,
Both cartridges you mention are great! If one pushes the envelope of the 30-06, yes, maybe in certain bullet weights, it can get very close to the 300 WM. But, when one pushes the envelope of the 300 WM, the distance gets farther away for the 30-06. I bought a Ruger in 300 WM instead of the 30-06 just for this reason. I figured when I want to shoot down to 30-06 levels, I would download, and when I wanted to pump up the velocity..... I could...(grin)
Dennis

I have both, in virtually identical rifles with 24" barrels. Using a 180 grain Nosler, the '06 will do about 2800 fps and the .300 about 3000 fps or a little more, at similar pressures.

My son hunts regularly with the .30-06 (and really likes it), while the .300 is fairly new to the collection and hasn't been hunted with. We are going elk hunting next week, and he intended to use the .30-06 despite the extra power and range of the .300, mainly because it's "his" gun, has a fine trigger, and he has had good luck with it. He intended to use it, that is, until I found that I had failed to load a supply of 180 Nosler's (he usually shoots a 150 for deer). As a consequence, he will shoot the .300. Maybe it will get him another 25 or 50 yards of effective range, and hit with a little more authority, but I don't really expect to see much difference in its effectiveness over the .30-06.

Now, if the quarry were brown bear and the bullet was a 200 grain Nosler, I'll take all the help I can get and go with the .300 hands down.

This comparison is a non issue, the 300 is a bigger case and has more power...that said I would shoot anything with a 30-06 and a 180 gr. Failsafe or Northfork..

I have shot the 308, 30-06 and 300 H&H for years and I love the 300 H&H with a 200 gr. Woodleigh, or Nosler as a do it all rifle...

I have a client that kills his Cape Buffalo every year with a 300 H&H and Woodleigh bullets soft and solids..I load his ammo for him...He is pushing 80....

They are all great calibers.

I've heard this same bullshit before, and for Pete's sake, at least be asute enough to compare apples with apples, not apples with oranges....

All I can say is, compare that High Energy Federal .30-06 load to Federal's High Energy 180 gr. .300 Winchester load and see which one produces more velocity, and better yet, do more than look it up on some chart, run both over a chronograph (I have) and see which one comes out on top.

As Ray indicated, case capacity STILL COUNTS FOR SOMETHING. If you load both cartridges to their full potential or run them head to head with same-concept factory ammo, the .300 Winchester will still out-strip the good 'ol '06 by 200-300 fps., and in a walk.

AD

Ray, I didn't think 30 cal was legal for Buff's?

Allen Day: With all due respect, I think you may have misunderstood me. If this is "bullshit" to you then I apologize for bringing up a topic you seem to be an expert in. Maybe I didn't write my post well enough, or perhaps all has been discussed by you "experts" to the point where those of us who consider learning a life-long event have nothing left to offer for enjoyable campfire banter. I think what I wanted to say was that if I thought a classic .300 Win load was an adequate load for the game chosen and would buy one on that basis, then I could also buy an -'06, (which I believe is a better choice for a 13 year old's first hunting rifle and far more versatile, especially for smaller game and most importantly, for lots of practice shooting, which in my opinion far too few "hunters" engage in)load it to classic Winnie loads and go hunting. I don't consider the extra speed of the Winnie relevant as I don't call shooting animals beyond 300yds hunting(which seems to be of importance to the .300 Winnie crowd)and I believe in the bigger bullet/lower velocity theory. Side comment: I would not up-load a Winnie; rather I would go to a .338 Mag or a .375 H&H. Opinions are just that, but why would you call a thoughtful conjecture "bullshit?" You do not represent Dundee well, my fellow Oregonian.

well now... what you meant to say was definatily not what you said then! Does the winnie have more velocity? Yes it does, as long as you compare simalar loadings, not hot vs. not. Does 200fps make a substainstial amount of differnce? I dont think so as far as the killing ability of these two cartridges. But to say there is is only 20fps difference between the cartridges, well thats just not accurate. Allan Day is right on the money. And i think he represents us pretty well.

I'm sorry if the "BS word" doesn't sit well with you (it doesn't sit well with me either, quite honestly), but a misrepresentation of the facts gets me riled, especially when I know better from rather extensive personal experience. For the sake of palatability, let's phrase it another way then:

To trivialize the performance difference between the .30-06 and the .300 Winchester is a gross distortion, especially if you're going to pick out one of the two the hottest factory .30-06 180 gr. loads on the planet, then compare some anemic factory .300 Winchester 180 gr. load to the high-performance .30-06 load. That sort of testimony is akin to tampered evidence in a court of law; it'll get found out and exposed for what it is sooner or latter.....

I've shot, handloaded, and hunted with the .30-06 off and on for thirty years - since age fifteen - and the .300 Winchester off and on for the last twenty, but extensively over the last ten years. Make no mistake about it, there is a marked difference in trajectory and killing power (at all ranges) between the .30-06 and the .300 Winchester, especially when both cartridges are loaded to their full potential. Considering the difference in case capacity between the two, it could be no other way. To claim otherwise is like saying the .300 Savage will match the .30-06 in performance. And yeah it will, provided you load the '06 to .300 Savage levels.......

Now I have indeed chronographed (I don't rely on maufacturer's charts) both of these Federal loads through my own rifles. Both of my .30-06s (22" barrels) produce right at 2850 fps. with that High-Energy 180 gr. ammo, which is very tough to meet or beat with the best handloads you can come up with. Case expansion is right up there along with the velocity, and I would be very hesitant to take this ammo on hot-weather hunts, and to Africa in particular.

Both of my current .300 Winchesters have 24" barrels. One has a newish Kreiger barrel that produces 3070 fps. with Federal's High-Energy 180 gr. Trophy Bonded load, while the other (with a much-fired Hart barrel) produces 3150 fps. with the same ammo, and only .0007" belt expansion. I sold another .300 Winchester with a 26" Kreiger barrel that also produced over 3100 fps. with the same ammo. Moreover, these .300 Winchester velocities can be duplicated with good, safe handloads with readily-available components in most rifles, and these loads would prove safe (they have for me) in just about any environment on the planet.

Now I like the .30-06, it's a great cartridge, but don't kid yourself, it's no .300 Winchester and it never will be, and neither wishing nor stilted evidence will make it so......

AD

i have chronographed the federal h.e loads and the hornady h.m loads in a 300 wm 26 inch barrel....vel for the federal ammo was 3070 and the hornady ammo was 3020
my 06 which has a 26 inch barrel spat the federal h.e loadswith the 180 gn noslers out at 2998 to be exact ...where is the 200-300 fps allen

I have to go by my chronograph and my own rifles, not yours. My own equipment and experiences I know about - yours I don't know about.

Besides, most American-built .30-06s (mine included) come with 22" barrels, not 26" barrels. Maybe if my own .30-06 rifles had 26" barrels I'd have results sililar to yours, but I have no use for a .30-06 bolt-gun with a 26" barrel, pure and simple.
On any rifle I might have to haul up a mountian or stick in a saddle scabbard, I limit the barrel length to 24".

AD

[ 01-26-2003, 20:01: Message edited by: allen day ]

allan
i have also put the federal h.e ammo through the temp test i left it in a car behind the windscreen in temp of over 40 degrees C....110 degrees f in your language for several hour and fired quite a number of those rounds off......not one gave any problems.....i have pressure tested them on a pressur gun and the pressures run from 55-58,000 psi depending upon batch
regards daniel

i have to go by my chronagraph to...{O 35P} and have have tested it simutanesley with other chronagraphs and velocities were spot on
regards daniel

This was another argument started by comparing the HE load in one to the standard load in another. You can compare anything of course but the initial post is not that relevant.

The 300 Win mag case is larger but not overbore for .30 caliber so if the 8% or so extra velocity is really needed then get one.

That's all there is to it! It's true that .300 mags in general tend to be a little heavier rifles and the recoil is up there but that's the way it is.

I reach for the 30/06 almost all of the time. But to each his own.

I suppose a light 300 Win mag with a 22" barrel is possible. I don't think a 300 Mag must have a 26" barrel at all although both of mine are that length.

For a handloader the .300 WSM is the better cartridge if you must have a larger case due to it's positive headspacing.

It's kind of hard to believe that the HE loads for the 30/06 almost match those of the .300 Win Mag but it's possible the way that things vary. But if it's a fact then the opposite is just as likely.

I would like to see a line of cartridges introduced with a COL of 3.3" (30/06 length) but with the head diameter and shoulder of the WSM's. in .284", .308", .338" and .375". The Dakota line is a good example but it's not mainstream.

ALAN
i guess when we are talking about comparing oranges lets compare them with oranges....im quite happy to compare a 300 win mag with a 22 inch tube and a 06 with a 22 inch tube.....i may be wrong but i feel the 300 will have more loss with a 22 inch barrel....i think you would be pushing to get much over 2950 out of one with a 22 inch barrel
regards Daniel

The .30-06 is a wonderful cartridge, but it is not equal to the .300WM. The extra velocity and energy of the .300WM provides it with the extra reach some hunters desire. That's all there is to it. Both use the same bullets, but one of the two reaches farther.

Keep in mind that one can use HE ammo for the .30-06 to make it more powerful, but one can't ignore the fact that HE ammo is also available for the .300WM.

Some point out that the Lite Magnum or High Energy .30-06 loads are pretty close to .300 Mag loads. Others say:

"Then, compare the heavy mag 300 load to the light mag '06 and there you go, you're back to 200 FPS at 300 yds. The 300 just does everything the '06 does 100 yards closer. If you want to do comparisons at least keep it semi-equal, otherwise you sound like a democrat polling expert."

The way to keep it semi-equal is to look at the effect on game. No one denies the .300 Magnums are great game cartridges -- even WITHOUT the Heavy Magnum loadings. Therefore a .30-06 in Lite Magnum or High Energy loadings should be about as good as the .300 Magnums were BEFORE these high-energy loadings came around -- which is to say, pretty darn good.

I look at Lite Magnum or High Energy loadings as a sort of Christmas present -- Santa brought me a .300 Mag that looks and handles exactly like my old pre-'64 Model 70!

Vern, the only problem is in -10 F cold on the elk mountain you'll probably lose all that velocity and your "Super-06" will become a "Regular-06" again... that certainly isn't bad though! Still, for a 13 year old boy, the High Energy factory loads will be too stout IMO.

Potential factory ammo availability is important to me when deciding on a chambering, but as a handloader I can use "temperature insensitive" powders and get the max with a given bullet of my choice. I prefer to look at these cartridges as potential handloading proposition's first and as factory loads a distant second.

The 300 WM generally has a 300 fps edge... not insignificant.

For a 13 year old boy, the 308 would be my first choice... 30-06 second. The 308 has been used to take more game in Africa than all the supposed "Classic African" cartridges... at 51 years old I think the 308 may have finally reached "classic" status! HE loads (if important) can be had in 308 turning it into a 30-06... though, refer to first paragraph

BA

Gents: I think I should have left my thoughts to myself on this one. I feel like I'm not making my point well, which is my fault, not yours. I just thought I would pass on Federal's facts, not mine, and came to the conclusion that based on the Federal Nos Part 180gn load I'm in the classic .300 Winnie ballistics, in a shorter barrel. That's very relevant to those of us who can only own 2 or 3 rifles due to other obligations or family needs. In revisiting the Federal ballistic tables, their info shows that the -'06 180gn Nos Part H.E. load exceeds the same bullet in the standard Winnie load. And that by a significant amount! 110fps and 195 ft/lbs. If the playing field's not level, I appologize. Can we just leave it at: "Wow, that's interesting." But then, maybe I'm just easily amuzed! Relax...I'm on your side!

BusPilot... you're obviously a very good man. As I've said before, your "God, Guns and Gibson's" is great (though my wife plays the Gibson not me). The Airbus... well, it ain't a Boeing but it'll do

We've had a lot of mis-representaion's about the High Energy rounds on these boards and my good friend Allen has often been the focal point of a bit of chiding along these lines. It tends to make us all a bit short tempered

Don't take any of it personally please. Your input and participation is very welcome and I've always enjoyed your post's and perspective. We're all here to learn... ok that's not entirely true... some are here to play guru. But most of us are here to learn. Asking question's is how we do it. You know the saying... "you're only as good as the question's you ask."

God Bless,

Brad

Brad
can you explain your statement.... that there has been a lot of misrepresentation about the high energy ammo ...intresting statement to say the least
daniel

98, a "misrepresentation" would be to claim the HE rounds turn a 30-06 into a 300 WM... they don't. Probably moot, but a lot of mud got slung around this topic a few years back. Like most topics it ocassionally resurfaces.

Regards,

Brad

BusPilot, you didn't ask for my advice, so take this for what it's worth and if it doesn't apply, throw it out.

I second Brad's thoughts about a 30-06 with HE loads being perhaps a bit stout for a 13 year old boy. Now that boy may be able to hoist me above his head for all I know, and he may have grown up shooting all types of things, so, if that's the case, like I said, ignore this.

But, for what it's worth, I would take a look at the 7x57. That's a pleasant, versatile caliber that's hard not to love.

Wismon: I appreciate your advice and I agree with you. I was just thinking about "down the road potential" in regard to the -'06,as he gets older. As for Brad, he's a good guy, just a little confused about the Boeing planes being better than the Airbus, but that's a different 300-post thread on another site (right, Brad?)! I am a big fan of the 7x57 and would favor it for my son's first hunting rifle but David seems hard set on the -'06 so we'll just download it and work up. (He shoots the '94 Marlin .44Mag with full snort loads better than I do.)

First of all, Buspilot, since you live so close, I'd like to invite you to to be a guest in our home, look over some rifles, trophy mounts, etc. If you'd like, bring some rifles, and we'll head to our local gunclub, and you'll get a better feel for what a chronograph can tell you about your rifle and selected loads. E-mail me if you're interested, and I'll provide you with our phone number, and maybe we can get off on a better foot.

That "compare apples to apples" retort is illogical. No manufacturer makes a .300 Winchester with a 22" barrel (H&R did for a while over 20 yrs. ago); no one I know orders custom .300 Winchester rifles with barrels that short, and the vast majority have 24 to 26" tubes. That's just the way it is. In the same vein, most .30-06 rifles come with 22" barrels (custom sporters as well), and a few with 24" barrels. Unless it's a Ruger Number One, I have yet to run into a hunter in this country carrying a .30-06 with a 26" barrel in thirty years and twenty states. So that "compare a 22" .30-06 to a 22" .300 Win." is a great sounding theory, but in the real world completely unrealistic.

What isn't unrealistic is the fact that there is no getting away from the case capacity difference between these two cartridges. That fact cannot be surmounted by any form of magic, wishful thinking, or anything else. What can be done with the .30-06 case to maximize all of its potential velocity can also be applied to the .300 Winchester case. The .30-06 is a great icon cartridge alright, but even an icon can't defy known ballistic theory and physical science.

What Brad eluded to earlier is true. This subject has been misrepresented time and again on these boards. Guys get all giddy over Federal's claimed velocity in the .30-06 with their High-Energy 180 gr. loads. They then pick out some run-of-the-mill, plebian .300 Winchester load (2900 fps. stuff), compare the two, and viola!, pronounce the .30-06 the equal of the .300 Winchester. They ignore the fact that a High-Energy .300 Winchester load even exists. Why, I don't know, but it's a stilted evaluation in any event that does not produce an honest comparison.

AD

[ 01-28-2003, 18:30: Message edited by: allen day ]

Pretty odd thread, but I'll take a .300 Win. Mag. over a .30-06 any day of the week.

Allen Day: That's a very kind offer, sir. Thank you for the invitation. I'll not be revisiting this post as I don't feel I've gotten through, which I take the blame for and it feels fruitless at this point. As for the shorter barrel length, I was refering to the Fed data using a shorter barrel on the -'06, not the Winnie. That you wouldn't test these comparisons, out of a 22" Winnie is a given. I am not aware of any current Winnies in a 22" barrel. I think I'll just load up the -'06 appropriate for the game and go hunting. We all know the .300 Win Mag is superior in every way, except deader than dead.

Busman, regarding the rifle for the 13 yr old, you might want to think about a 7-08 in a model 7 remington. There is also a after market stock called a "cadet" that has an inch shorter length of pull (sorry, I can't recall who makes it) you could use that and as the kid grows, switch back to the regular stock. I have been fooling with a 7-08 since back when it was a wildcat and it is a lot of cartridge. I've killed some awful big mulies with it. I've never used it on an elk but if it were my only rifle, I'd load it up with 160's and be sure of my shot before I pulled the trigger. Then I'm pretty sure it would do its part. A 7-08 is a ballistic twin (thats gonna bring some howls) to a 7x57 which has been use to kill most everything on the planet.
Don't be too turned off by the tempest in a teapot over the 06 versus the 300. You could have gotten the same heat over several threads, ie: 270 vs 280, 7mag performance from a 280, is the 270 an elk cartridge, etc. Its winter time and we shooters are house bound by and large so tempers and opinions run quick and hot.

[/qb][/QUOTE]Look here:
Winchester Model 70 Classic Featherweight[/QB][/QUOTE]

He's talking about 300 WM's...

You might be correct but then you would only have one rifle rather than two!

I own a Sako Hunter grade 4 left hand 300 Win that was given to me as a gift new in 1989 with a factory 22" barrel. I only shot factory loads thru it until 2 years ago. I also own a chronograph. I have shot four loads over the chrony, 3 handloads and one Win Supreme 180 gr. PP for comparison. The handloads are all WW brass, Fed 215 preimer, 74 gr IMR 4831 and either a 180 gr Speer Hot Core, Speer Grand Slam, or Nosler Ballistic tip. The velocities were Nos BT 3080 fps avg., SHC 3045 avg., SGS 3030 avg. and Win Suprenme 3030 avg. I have two 30-06 that used to hunt with that I love ( whole family comes from the old 30-06, 12 gauge and 22 LR type thinking ) but have not for 5 years. Before I got the chrony I used to worry that the 300 was just a loud 30-06 every one always said I would lose 100 fps for every inch barrel shorter than 26" but I don't now. I have all the velocity and power I need in a shorter, lighter rifle. I know all guns are different but I am pleased and three dead deer and three dead elk were none the wiser.

[ 01-30-2003, 08:22: Message edited by: Teddy ]

Reguardless of the difference between the 30/06 and the 300 Win. , the 06 is still a very fine choice for a 13 year old ; with a handloading father. It is easily tamed down to very moderate levels , or souped up to "almost" standard 300 mag speed .

Still a tough package to beat !