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I'm told that the Weatherby Vangaurd promises to print 1.5" groups at 100 yards, and that this is pretty good "for a hunting rifle." But I have read about precious few groups on the internet larger that 1.5". Most, it seems, are around .5 to .75. Those seem to make the Vangaurd's groups look, well, about 50% to 100% too big. Is this because people: 1. Overestimate their accuracy. 2. Only report their (lucky) good groups. 3. Only shoot 2-shot groups, instead of 3-shot or (OMG) 5-shot groups. Is there really in great difference in the "off-the-rack" accuracy of the major garden-variety gunmakers, or is 1.5" really something to brag about? | ||
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Well, I personally do not believe 1.5" is somethin to brag about. I have a 30 year old Remington 700 that is completly original and stock, and I get dime-sized 5 shot groups...of course i handload to get these groups. Weatherby, IMHO, guarentees this because no one else does, and it is just a marketing thing to promise a certain accuracy. sure, they are decent weapons, but 1.5" isn't good enough for me, even "just for hunting" Gun control is hitting your target. | |||
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 To me tight groups are nice. Having said that ,it is more important where that first shot will hit with respect to your point of aim. The exception to this of course is varmint shooting or paper punching.As a young man I've witnessed a lot of ooos and ahhhs over groups around 1 1/2" from deer rifles. The norm changed as shooters could afford magazines (reading material that is) and computors and started talking to one another and only telling less than half the story. If you're going to shoot deer size or bigger animals that 1 1/2" rifle will get the job done if you do your part. Just know where the first one will hit.  Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I had a friend that claimed his 7MM Mag M-70 could hit a nickel at 300 yards. I heard this story so many times that I called him on it and offered him $1 for every time he could hit a nickel on 100 yard range. He took me up on it and proceeded to show me his rifle couldn't do a 3" group at 100 yards and I just smiled. I truly believe there's a lot of internet BS about group size as I had a M-70 featherweight that shot a three shot group inside a dime and I could have called that rifle a 1/2" grouper. Fact is that it was pure luck as normally it shoots to about 1 1/2" I know a guy that swears his Swede will shoot a 3/4" group with iron sights at 200 yards!...he really believes it!! That needs no comment as it's just what it is!!! If I have a hunting rifle that actually will put five shots inside a 1.5" circle at 100 yards I'm one happy camper and that gun is totally ready for hunting. Think a second.....that accuracy means that theoretically you can hit within .75 inches of sight at 100 yards. Or 1.5 inches of sight at 200 yards. You need better than this?...can you shoot that well in the field? I sure can't and doubt that many can! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I think that most people only mention the good ones. I have rifles that will shoot under an inch & I have a few that won't. Since I have really gotten into the accuracy hobby I have about three rifles that I have really spent any time trying differant loads in. I have been able to make all three shoot under 1". I had to adjust the trigger on one of them, but I think I still had it shooting under an inch before I did that. Two of these three are varmint rifles with heavy barrels & one is a Rem 700 Mtn rifle. I fire 5 shot groups with my varmint barreled rifles & 3 shot groups with the mountain rifle. I have a few rifles that I have not been able to shoot under the 1.5" you mention in your post. I have not spent a lot of time with these yet, but I suspect that that I can improve most of them by working up a load for them. Two of them, however, I believe it will take more than that, just a feeling. Most of my rifles are "off the rack" types of rifles. As a matter of fact, I have two custom rifles & neither of them are my best shooters.....yet. | |||
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I am new to this but I find myself pissed not shooting a small group, but it does happen. If I am not inside one of the 1" squares on the target I am pissed. However, I can trace the cause back usually to myself. I will dry fire a bit, take a few sips of water, concentrate like hell on the next group and hopefully it gets smaller. I got a new rear bag and MAN does it make a difference. Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon, windage and elevation... | |||
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With my 338 Rem Ultra Mag I shot a three shot at 200 yds that was 5/8" with 200 gr bullets and with 225 gr bullets it was 7/8 for a three shot group and thats a FACT. I shoot to 200 yds because between me and 200 yds is where I do most of my shooting when hunting. | |||
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I think the 1.5" guarantee is one that they don't expect to have to send any back to the shop for, because any of them should be capable of it. My Vanguard came with a factory shot target that looked like it only had two holes in it. On close study, one hole was slightly oval and actually was two shots. The third one opened it up to a 0.8" 3-shot group. That's a 1998 Wal-Mart plastic stocked Vanguard in .300 Weatherby. The guarantee is based on their target they shot with Weatherby factory ammo and sent with the rifle, BTW, not on what you can shoot, so don't fuss if your results vary. I've been able to consistently shoot <1 MOA groups with my own loads in mine. BTW, ever wonder how they do the test shooting? I saw no evidence of a scope having been mounted to the rifle, and I can't imagine they'd do so for test firing, then take it back off. I think the rifle's clamped in a mechanical rest, pointed at a target, fired three times, unclamped from the rest and packed for shipping with the target. Bartsche and Vapodog are exactly right, there's no reason to feel a 1.5 MOA grouping hunting rifle is inferior. That's perfectly adequate. At any rate, the Vanguard's a nice rifle. "A cheerful heart is good medicine." | |||
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I don't consider 1-1/2" groups at all impressive.With handloading,I have been able to obtain 1" groups with most of the rifles I have owned.With my custom rifles,I would be very disappointed with 1" groups. When I say a rifle is an honest 1/2" rifle,I am meaning that if I fire several groups ,the average of those groups will be 1/2" or better. However some people will fire one 1/2" group and proclaim the gun a 1/2" gun even if they can't duplicate the group again.When someone is constantly bragging about one particular group,this is usually the situation.If they post a group online,it will be only one group. Then there are those people that call any shots that open a group up called fliers and don't count them.I count all shots taken as fliers will average out over several groups. Lastly there are the people that simply don't know how to measure groups.Their 1/2" groups are usually actually 3/4" or 1" if measured properly. | |||
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personaly,..I sell them if they won't CONSISTENTLY shoot under 1 MOA at 100yds with my handloads or their preferred factory ammo. My testing is done from a bench with mechanical rest and rear bags. This removes much of the human error and allows a much more scientific evaluation of a rifles potential. I can FORCE myself to accept a 1" rifle if it just a carry stick for maybe 200yds or less,...but I have printed farrrrr too many ragged holes for 5 rnds, even at 200yds, to accept the popular "that's plenty good enough for hunting" groups. It may be that I spend too much time shooting LR and BR, but that's just me  I just aquired a 30+yr old rem700 in 270win,..and within the first 5 loads on the ladder, I had 2 groups looking like solid 1/2-3/4" groups and I didn't even trim the brass, chamfor the mouths, or deburr the flasholes yet. I am simply forming the brass to the chamber first. I will have a .5-.6" consistent load for this sporter rifle within the week with 130gr NBT's and H4831sc. Difficulty is inevitable Misery is optional | |||
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Most hunting folks don't determine how accurate their rifles really are. Not a slam, just a statement of fact. An inch and a half at 100 yards is not spectacular at all. I'm much happier at 1 1/2" or better at 200 yards from the bench (or two inches at 300 yards for a long range hunt). Have yet to find a rifle that did that without some work at the reloading bench. That being said, the reason I like that level of performance is so that I can take the blame for misses as operator error when hunting. When the man said "if I do my part" said a mouthful! Is a 1 1/2" at 100 yard rifle serviceable as a deer rifle ... of course it is. Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
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I think lots of guys overestimate how accurate they are with their rifles. I shoot alot and what I do is measure the average of at least 10 3 shot groups with most hunting rifles. With handloads I can usually get that average under an inch with standard calibres and right around an inch with magnums. To me these are really accurate guns, not benchrest accuracy but perfect for hunting. If I can't get a gun to group like that with good handloads with bullets I would use for hunting then the gun goes down the road. | |||
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For my part, I'm not satisfied until a rifle will group well. What defines "well" depends on what kind of rifle it is. In my book, a varmint rifle is only starting to cut the mustard at .5moa and half of that is far, far better. For a multipurpose rifle, I like to have better than MOA with handloads. Sometimes that takes a lot of work, sometimes not. Sometimes a rifle won't get there no matter what. For a big magnum, 1.5MOA is OK and 1MOA is gravy. With some rifles, consistency in POI is important, too. I may need to be able to shoot a varmint load and a game load to nearly the same POI, and if the rifle won't do that, it's a problem. With other guns, that's not an issue. I also see a lot of guys shooting off mechanical rests. Of course, most rifles are going to group better that way, but I would never do it because how the rifle behaves off my shoulder is how it will behave in the field, and that's what matters.  | |||
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If you work at it you can get a standard hunting rifle to shoot under 1 MOA off the bench. Assuming good bullets, good barrel, good bedding. And a scope that is not out of wack. But so what. This weekend I shot in another 100 yard reduced course Highpower match. With my 12 pound 308 MIA I shot a 98-3X standing. That is with irons I was able to place 8 shots within three inches standing. The other two were within six inches of so (I don't remember the exact dimensions). I also shot pretty good scores for the rest of the day, but that really was my high. Offhand is really hard. So, the same day I also take out with my my JC Model 50 (FN actioned 30-06 made in the early 50's). I had installed a rubber buttpad and wanted to give the thing a go. This rifle is very light. Probably a pound lighter than late model rifles. And it will group under an inch (counting only the good groups!) at 100 yards. Because there was still match targets and stuff all over the benches, I had to shoot the thing unsupported. Even with a blasted scope all I could do sitting was keep the black. (about six inches). I used a stuffed backback and shot prone. I would get a decent four shot group, around an 1.5 inches, and then I would throw one out six inches. I might do better when I get a 54" sling on the thing, but it was hard to shoot with a hasty sling, or off the bag. Yes, the rifle is capable of MOA, yes I am capable of shooting perfect scores prone at 100 yards, but not unsupported with a lightweight whippy rifle. (Also these lightweight barrels tend to walk more than heavy barrels. If you ever get one to shoot ten shot groups under an inch, you are blessed.) I believe that is true for most people. They will report great groups off a bench. But unless they happen to be able to carry a concrete bench out in the field with them, then it is down to shooting skills. And for that, we all need to practice. But when I want to brag about the capability of the rifle, the six inch targets are not the ones I keep! | |||
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 I'm sorry fellas but this Need for 3 or 5 shot MOA ina hunting rifle is just so much  or display of imaturity. The total package being able to place the right bullet in the right place is what counts. If he is running an 1" and a 1/2 after that ain't going to matter. Get real.  I seldom get arguementative but this one just tingles my tities.Again , varmint shooting or at least semi serious paper punching ;OK. Deer or larger shine it on.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I think this might be partly a regional thing. In some areas, people only hunt one kind of animal at a time. Where I live, seasons are simultaneously open on a variety of species. A couple of years ago, for instance, I was up in a tree stand hunting deer when some turkeys wandered out in the open about 120 yards away. If I had had a rifle with me that was only capable of 1.5MOA, I would have had to watch those turkeys wander off unmolested, because I'm not going to body shoot a turkey with a deer rifle and I'm not going to just whang away and see if I can luck out, either. However, I had my Ruger .270 with me (see above photo), and it was a calm morning so the stand wasn't moving, and I was able to neck shoot a nice tom. The bobcat that grabbed the turkey as it was thrashing and started running off with it met a bad end, too. | |||
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tell me in supportive english, why if i have a kill zone of 24 inches x 24 inches (aka moose) why must i put 5 shots into a 1/2 inch group at 100 yds, when i will be shooting the moose at 50 yds????? explain please.!!!!! | |||
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Why would you shot a turkey while deer hunting and scare any deer in the area? Besides who wants a wild tough tom when you can buy a butter ball for less than a dollar a pound. Had more than one chance to play sargent York and kill a whole brude and didn't. I've had many an opportunity to shot a number of bob cat and didn't. Besides, if you want to shot Turkey necks or heads it's the first shot that counts and where the 2nd or 3rd bullets hit makes NO difference.  roger It's been a slow day.Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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In case you didn't realize it ,some of us do hunt much smaller,much warier animals.  | |||
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With my 7mag, after coming up with the best load which actually produces 1/2-inch groups, consistently, I am able to not only shoot deer, but also take turkey cleanly with a head shot out to 100 yards. Most of the deer I take are head shots out to 150 yards. I work on my loads to get this type of accuracy so when I shoot, I know exactly where my bullet will strike. If I want to put one between a deer's eyes, that's where it goes. This is one reason why a lot of hunters strive to get small groups from hand loads. On the other hand, If I was shooting something the size of a Moose, Heck, even a 5 inch group a 50 yards will work. But there's no moose in Texas. | |||
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I guess Ill jump in head first hear. What Im about to say is based on a learning procces/curve spaning the last 18 years and counting. When it comes to the accuracy of ANY rifle, the accuracy of said rifle is dependent apon one thing above all others: the shooter. This is 0ne of the most absolute truisums bar none. I have litterally dozens of targets hanging on the walls of my reloading room and basement that are 3 shot 100yrd groups that are at or below 1-MOA. That is shooting my .338wm, 7mmSTW, 300wm, and yes even my .50 cal MZ Encore. I even have several 100yrd three shot groups that are sub 100yrd MOA I kept from shooting other persons rifles as a favor to check the accuracy of the rifle, as thay were having a bad day at the range and asked me to shoot their rifle so as to determine if it was them or the rifle/scope at fault. I also have had enough days shooting my same exact reloads that produced MOA or better groops durring many a range session, only to somehow have my groups open up to 3-3.5"MOA while shooting the same reloads out of the same exact rifle. That is with absolutely nothing changing what so ever with the rifle/scope/reload or any other factor. So the only variable left is I the shooter. When this happens I will always take a short break and try to get rid of the accuracy boogi-man. If I fail to do so I just wright it off to s**t happens and call it a day. Nine times out of ten Im right back to my usual level of shooting accuracy at my next range session. Although I have had a few strings of bad sessions go as much as three in a row, but quite rarely. I am of the opinion that yes there is a great deel of BS printed on the internet about rifle accuracy. I also think hunters (myself included) but too much importance on accuracy. But having said that, I also feel based on the experience relading for my rifles as well as the success my friend has had reloading for his one rifle, that with the propper handloads most production rifles are capable of, or at least comming quite close to acheiving MOA accuracy in the hands of a compitent shooter. | |||
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Well to beat a dead horse (or deer) I will agree that you don't need a MOA rifle to hit a deer. I have only shot three deer in my hunting life, one with a slug gun at maybe 20 feet, one with a Mosin Nagant at maybe 30 feet, and one with my JC Higgins 30-06 at maybe 25 yards. And I missed the deer with second and third shots with my Higgins. The first shot broke the hip, the last shot broke the neck. I can remember thinking, as the crosshairs were on the deer, and nothing happened for two rounds, "is this deer bullet proof?". But if I ever go hunting again I will have my rifle zeroed to point of aim or a little higher, and the rifle will be capable of at least 1.5 MOA at 100 yards. Why? because I like accuracy and having an accurate rifle that is sighted in dead on increases my confidence of a hit. But then, since I like accurate rifles, that is why I am a target shooter. And I get to shoot 88 times out to 600 yards at least twice a month. So I get to shoot a lot, on paper. Which is probably why I don't deer hunt much of anymore. Sit up in a tree stand, on on the ground, freeze, and see nothing but squirrels. Was not that fun. | |||
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I don't have to have a one hole deer rifle, but I have a lot of fun trying to make my rifles shoot the best that I can. | |||
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as far as paper vs hunting, they are very different. However there are those of us, who don't just wish to be "average" shooters,..we look to be better than that. We tend to be the 1/2" crowd while those who are satisfied with simply being "average" shooters are happy with MOA or a tad more. I routinely end up well under MOA at 600 and 1000yds, and have gone well under 1/2MOA at those distances many times over. That experience and the first hand witnessing of the ability of a truly well built rifle makes it hard for me to accept anything less. Hell,..I have seen remington sendero's go well under 1 MOA at 1000yds with nothing but handloads. Point being,..some would rather say "average" is OK,...I however want more from myself and from my rig. I know my ability is up to the task,..I have the plaques to prove it, so that is a foregone conclusion when considering groups. a 24" x 24" kill zone isn't exactly rocket science,..just about anything off the shelf ought to be able to manage that small feat. Now when I shoot crop damage permits and have shots available to me at ranges out to and beyond 1000yds,..well lets just say the "average" shooter with their "average" groups really should refrain from joining us and simply bring a camera,..cause your equipment doesn't belong on this firing line.  if mediocre accuracy is acceptable to you,..that is your perogative,..however those who strive for better performance have no apologies to make,..we are the ones that lead the industry into making better products,..simply cause we exist and they know we will buy it. If you take solace in 1.5MOA, then good for you,...however I can't accept that and will therefore work towards better accuracy, be it from the bench or from a treestand. Difficulty is inevitable Misery is optional | |||
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Having an accurate rifle and the skill to use it are nice and a confidence builder. But I'd rather see more people getting ready for hunting season shooting freehand. That's the way my Uncle taught me. He told me he'd take me hunting when I could hit a small paper plate the saucer sized one five out of five times at 100 yards freehand. | |||
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Hmmmmmmmm -- pulling on the hip waders here. Some people measure groups "edge to edge." Some measure "center to center of the broadest spread. MOA is more or less 1" at 100 yds. With a middling power scope (6x) that's the width of the reticle, give or take. You can't see MOA at 100 yds. with iron sights. If you can't see it, you can't shoot it unless the action is bolted to a concrete bench. So Weatherby Vanguard and 1.5" group with factory ammo. That's the claim. Some calibers are more accurate than others. 2" @ 100 yds for a 45/70 is really hot stuff. 2" @ 100 yds for an Ackley .223 out of a Rem. 700 PSS, 14x sniper/target/varmint scope, and you've got problems. So, Weatherby Vanguard, 1.5" @ 100 yds. in all calibers across the board. That's a respectable claim, and a mfg. can make that mark, consistently on the production line. -- and I'm wondering if they're talking about total spread of holes, or centers? | |||
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Tikka and sako use 1" as their standard. | |||
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Tikka and Sako are excellent rifles. I'm not picking that apart. But I have a Ruger Number1, and my buddy a Marlin 1895, both in 45/70 Govt. We're shooting 100 yds and 350 gr. Speer flat points. Nothing exotic, handloads, 4895, if that matters. 1.5 - 6x 20 Leupold, and 1.75 - 6x 32mm Leupold scopes. 100 yds. 2" groups are a good deal. That's 2" center to center on the broadest spread. Of course we toss out the targets where there's a flyer. "Musta farted on that one!" That said, I have a group, 223 Ackley, Rem. 700 PSS, 4 -14X 50mm sniper, rangefinder scope, with a bubble level in the reticle. Jewell trigger set at about 2 oz. Shaved the necks, weighed the brass, double weighed the loads. Reamed the primer pockets. Had the leade in the chamber set back. Setting the bullet about 0.002 off the rifling. On a good day, moderate temps, no wind, off a bench built like the proverbial brick privy, Sinclair rest, sand bags -- Clean fingers, swab the bore after each group. I was getting 0.2xx MOA on three and five shot groups. Not all the time, but often. It was taking me 4 hours to load 20 rds. AA grade chicken eggs at 300 yds. What a hoot! -- But I sold it, and really like shooting my old Mauser 98/22 w/ surplus So. Am. ammo -- and iron sights off a sandbag. | |||
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my groups are center to center, as they are supposed to be measured. I TEST the rifle and the load from the bench to eliminate as much human error as possible. This way,..you get a much more uniform idea of it's performance. Once you hit the field,..it's all your fault then. Eliminate the equipment,..and all you are left with is operator error.  if you KNOW you have the rifle shooting at it's full potential,..then that confidence in itself can make your point blank hits more prevalent. Difficulty is inevitable Misery is optional | |||
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Groups are measured center to center, so bore diameter has no bearing on the size of the group. I think most manufacturers today could pass the 1.5 three shot group guarantee with just a few bad ones due to tolerances. I currently own none that will not shoot an inch or less for three shots, and for a varmint rifle I want them to shoot half that. These of course have been sorted out of a larger group of rifles too. It also isn't difficult to shoot 1.25-1.5 inch groups at 100 yards with a peep sighted levergun, you just have to use a target with a big bold bullseye and use a 6 o'clock hold. I have an old .30-30 Model 94 that with good reloads and a 170 Hornady has shot a bunch of three shot 1 in. groups with irons, but it won't average that, average is more to 1.3-1.5 inches. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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 Amen, Jay!!!  Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Some thoughts I have that I'll throw out for comments: 1) If you want to see how accurate your rifle is then why not use a mechanical rest? That mostly eliminates the human factor. 2) Shooting offhand -- unless you hunt that way then there's not any need to practice it. Unless you are standing to the charge of dangerous game, you probably won't be shooting offhand. 3) Once you've used a mechanical rest to ensure you've got an accurate rifle then it seems to me you should practice shooting as you hunt. For most whitetail hunters that would be braced against something or sitting or prone. | |||
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I agree that most hunters are braced,...I use a rail on my stands. If I am on the ground, I lean against a tree or use my backpack or whatever. Unless I have a charging buffalo coming at me,..no need to shoot offhand as it just makes for wounded game and missed shots that destabilize the hunting area. If you can't get into a tight position,..then don't take the shot.  Difficulty is inevitable Misery is optional | |||
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Postoak; Shooting from a rest reduces the human factor but sure does not elimanate it. I have been shooting prone with a sling for about two decades now. Got good at it. Got almost snobbish about it. Decided I was going to clean some clocks in F class. F class you shoot a .223 or .308 off a bipod. Can use a sandbag for buttstock support. Let me tell you that it is not a given. At 1000 yards I was all over the place. Hideously bad shots. No doubt I can and will do better with a rest. But you have to practice at it and you can still have a train wreck, all because of technique. Last match I fired 1000 yards prone with a sling. Did better than I did with a bipod. The guys there who shot unlimited class, off a rest and with pads, the only part of the rifle they touch is the trigger. And they can still have a train wreck. Nothing is a given. As for offhand, if you can shoot offhand well, it is confirmation that your mind and trigger are in sync. If I can, I shoot sitting with a hasty sling. Seldom am I able to shoot prone in the woods, and if I can use a tree, well that is a lot better than unsupported. | |||
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Shooting good groups is fun and something to do in the off season. That´s reason enough  | |||
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Down here we just set out a beer can at 35 yds. When your 7Mag hits the can 3 times in a row, you holler out with excitement "yeee-haw, She's on boy's!" Then the serious drinking starts. What's a group anyway? Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Postoak I have shot a lot of game offhand, probably most of my Missouri whitetails are offhand shots. I also shot elk in the dark timber offhand,as well as a lot of plains game in Africa. I also practice a lot offhand. We drive hunt whitetails a lot, so a large number are moving shots offhand. I hate sitting in a tree stand, have never shot a deer from a tree with a rifle. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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Accuracy is how big (or small) your rifles groups are MORE OFTEN THAN NOT. Half inch groups are good for your confidence, but is it necessary with the average big game rifle and hunter combination? Many big game hunters never shoot over 300 yards. And the ones that do seldom ask about what group sizes are acceptable. | |||
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Accuracy is knowing where that first shot will go if you do your part, off hand or braced if needed. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Art, I couldn't agree more, but I have a dilemma. How do so many guys claim they have found "the load" for their rifle. I shoot as often as I can, but I would never have time to shoot a load enough to determine it is "the load". Our barrels would wear out in load development! I am a new reloader (2 yrs. experience). I have an Oheler Chrony and I do it right (loading). When I shoot inconsistently, I know it is me so how do you prove or disprove a load? Reloaders Haul Brass! | |||
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