30-06 AI vs 30-06

I have three 30-06 hunting rifles and one of them is going to the 'smith for some stock work...just wondering if I should have him ream her out to an AI for a different flavor... a bit different and a bit more velocity...

What's the difference folks are seeing?

Is it worth it?

Just thinking about it for now and curious what I may be missing out on...

Really don't want to spend the money on a 300WM, so if the [AI]shoots a bit flatter I'm figuring why not???

Of the five Ackley carridges I have owned and shot,this one, the .30-06 AI is the least of value. The gains are minimal and the fireforming process consumes too much these days.

When I had a .223 Rem. rechambered to Ackley it required a "set back" in the chamber -- That's an added expense. It's not just a matter of "running a reamer."

Velocity gains were minimal, although I was getting 4,000 fps in a 40 gr. bullet, but we were on the edge of things.

I suppose what you need to realize about getting into an Akley chambering is that you're walking into "wildcat" loads and it's mostly between you, your chrono and what you understand about developing a load.

I can only speak to my experiences with my 30-06AI. I like it and would do it again. Fireforming is cake and mine shoots regular taper 06 brass just as accurate as the 40degree Ackley formed brass. No fireforming is not a burden.

Once fireformed the brass lasts forever. I am on loading #9 and so far still going (I do anneal).

Certainly not going to match up to 300WM but will shoot flatter than standard 30-06. IMHO unless you are out past 400yrds or so I don't think the animal will know the difference.

Would I do it again? YES.

I have both.The A.I.-06 has superior accuracy and as Biscut says the brass last much longer.It also does a better job with heavier bullets at longer distances.Will I keep the a.i.over the standard ? yes

There is nothing you can do with the "AI" version that can't be done with the standard case.

One can achieve the same case life with custom chambering the standard case and one can achieve the miniscule velocity gains with handloading the standard case to the same pressures he loads the "AI" version.

IMO the term "Ackley Improved" is a joke.

Dear Squeeze:

I'm going to build a 30-06 AI on 1909 Argentine, and here's why.

P. O. Ackley's reloading manual and the Nosler fifth edition reloading guide both show an approximate 75-100 fps increase in velocity with the 180-200 grain bullets. Not alot, but some increase.

What I like about the 30-06 AI that I will build is the added room in the case at maximum loads, as evidenced by the percentage of powder load density as marked in the Nosler manual. The 30-06 AI gives you just that little bit more, so you don't have to compress the powder charge.

There isn't much of a volumetric increase, I measured about a 2.5-3.0 grains of water increase in the Ackley version.

On the other hand, my 7x57 Ackley rarely requires any case trimming even after 8-9 reloadings with annealing at five reloadings. Also, I don't have to bump the shoulder back until I hit about five reloadings.

My 243 Winchester can go about three reloadings before I have to bump the shoulder back.

It seems that the 40 degree shoulder of the Ackley keeps the case from growing as swiftly as compared to a 17.5-20 degree shoulder like the 30-06 and 243 Winchester.

Also, I have found my 7x57 Ackley will extract more easily even with a top load compared to a case with a more sloping shoulder like the 243 Winchester, 270 Winchester, 280 Remington and 30-06 Springfield, of which I have owned more than a few.

Based upon my experience with my 7x57 AI, my conclusion is the Ackley design has some nice advantages mechanically. Most of the rifles that I am building will be Ackley improved.

On the other hand the velocity increase in the 30-06 Ackley probably isn't worth the time.

Lastly, getting it to feed isn't tough, just send me a PM, and I'll show you how to do it in a standard action in 45 minutes or less using a micrometer, files and sandpaper. You probably will lose one down though in the magazine, because of the bigger shoulder, depending upon the rifle.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Many thanks to all...

I readily see its pros and cons...and I will weigh the factors that suit me best for my needs...

That being said, I'll probably not do it based on the VERY marginal gain in fps...although to set back and rechamber isn't really expensive to have done, the 30-06 just fulfills my needs when I evaluate both cartridges...

What other cartridges of interest are there that I may want to set-back/re-chamber this barrel to,... in order to GAIN a bit more fps other than the AI???

None?...

Bottomline is...I really don't want to re-barrel as this is a new barrel...I'm doing this to find some joy in shooting another chambering if at all possible...for more velocity...If there's nothing else worthwhile the -06 is still fine by me...

That's why I'm inquiring with all you gurus here...

Thanks!

Squeeze:

For what it's worth I have a 35 Whelen Improved. I get the benefits Biscut talks about with his 06AI. Yet there is virtually no difference in accuracy in my rifle between a standard load and an AI load with the same bullets.

On a side note, where do you shoot big bore on Oahu? I'm aware of places on Maui and Hawaii, but not on Oahu.

Aloha........Tom

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
Squeeze:

For what it's worth I have a 35 Whelen Improved. I get the benefits Biscut talks about with his 06AI. Yet there is virtually no difference in accuracy in my rifle between a standard load and an AI load with the same bullets.

On a side note, where do you shoot big bore on Oahu? I'm aware of places on Maui and Hawaii, but not on Oahu.

Aloha........Tom

Thanks for your reply!


The boars we shoot are on the Big Island!!!

Its a bit easier as some places you can catch them on the open plains like Waimea!

Mostly ALL dog/knife here on Oahu... Vegetation is extremely thick!!!...No long shots perse` as on the large open plains on the outer islands...Chances are much better!

I have no experience with any of the AIs but Ackley himself didn't think much of the -06 version. Or a lot of others! But it could be fun anyway, so...?

It's been my experience that the way I FL size my cases has a lot more effect on case stretching than cartridge, shoulder angle OR high pressure.

Squeeze:

!!!

I love you my Brudda. But what I meant was where on Oahu does one shoot big bore rifles, not where in the Hawaiian Islands does one shoot big "boars." No more plate lunch and shots for you. And no more shave ice with vodka & rum either!

Alhoa..Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
it's mostly between you, your chrono and what you understand about developing a load.

Hey L-B, Gotta disagree with the first portion of Mr. Ladd's statement. The problem is that the Velocity does not tell you anything about what the actual Pressure happens to be. A lot of folks have been flim-fammed into thinking it does, due to "wishful thinking" by people who do not understand the variables involved in the Chambers, Bores, and Cartridges between different firearms. And they mistakenly believe they can look at a Velocity and mystically deduce the Pressure.

If on the other hand you have been using your CHE & PRE, as we have discussed in the past, then you are ready to tackle a Wildcat. The CHE portion along with EGE(EGG) will keep you from dumping in too much powder.

Ackley Improved User has lots of 30-06AI data, but it really only applies to his specific rifle. Anyone getting into Wildcatting should already know that though.

Wildcatting is a good phase for a Reloader to go through. Sure makes him appreciate the full range of excellent Non-Wildcat cartridges that are available to us.

Best of luck with it if you decide to go the Wildcat route. PM me if you need any update on the CHE.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

Having messed with a baker's dozen of improved cases from .224 to .458, I think they are fun for the tinkerer/reloader, money makers for gunsmiths and pretty much a wash for hunting.

Kinda like changing the chrome airbox on a Harley; you get what you want but the bike and the road can't tell the difference.

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
When I had a .223 Rem. rechambered to Ackley it required a "set back" in the chamber -- That's an added expense. It's not just a matter of "running a reamer."

Velocity gains were minimal, although I was getting 4,000 fps in a 40 gr. bullet, but we were on the edge of things.

I suppose what you need to realize about getting into an Akley chambering is that you're walking into "wildcat" loads and it's mostly between you, your chrono and what you understand about developing a load.

One could always have a piloted 280 A.I. reamer run in to the chamber & then cut the neck/throat in a separate operation.
That would result in a 30/280 A.I.

No need to "set back" & a bit more case capacity to boot.

One of the biggest advantages of the "improved"
cartridges is the much improved case life especially when loaded full bore.

Most "modern" case dezsigns exibit the reduced taper & sharper shoulder angle of "Ackley Improved" cartridges.

The "AIs" got their claim to fame back before every kid on the block had a chrony but since then, their claims to vastly superior performance have had to be throttled back considerably. And so, their stated appeal now is more nebulous, ie, case life, accuracy, etc. I daresay that the extra cost of re-chambering a rifle to AI would supply you with brass for the rest of your life however.
As posted, if you like to tinker, and if you like to have something different and want a LITTLE better performance than the plan jane version gives you without red-lining things, then the AI route may be the answer.
The numbers I have heard --and will not swear to-- are 4 to 1. For every 4% increase in powder capacity you add, you gain 1% increase in velocity. If my math is correct, and math is not my strong point, if you had a 30-06 case that held 60grs of powder that drove a bullet 2800fps and you increased the capacity 2.5grs, you would gain 28fps. Somebody else can check my math.

I've considered doing this but didn't. In reality, I'm neither bored nor dissatisfied enough with the 30-06 sprg to justify it. I could much more easily decide to go with a 300 Win Mag or 300 WSM and have better performance than the AI.

I have no doubt the AI version is better but based on what I currently know it's hard to justify the change.

If someone can explain what I missed, I'll listen.

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
Squeeze:

!!!

I love you my Brudda. But what I meant was where on Oahu does one shoot big bore rifles, not where in the Hawaiian Islands does one shoot big "boars." No more plate lunch and shots for you. And no more shave ice with vodka & rum either!

Alhoa..Tom

And I thought you made one TYPO...



Geez I only shoot at the Koko Head Shooting Complex...no 50BMG's anymore tho...

quote:

Originally posted by TheBigGuy:
I've considered doing this but didn't. In reality, I'm neither bored nor dissatisfied enough with the 30-06 sprg to justify it. I could much more easily decide to go with a 300 Win Mag or 300 WSM and have better performance than the AI.

I have no doubt the AI version is better but based on what I currently know it's hard to justify the change.

If someone can explain what I missed, I'll listen.

I feel the same!

I really dig shooting my 30-06 rifles...I decided to keep it the same and just do the stock work when I have some funds!

If I need bigger and faster I'll another rifle that shoots a really BIG BULLET...

I've learned alot here from everyone and now I know why we have choices!

I always say GET THE ONE YOU WANT...