The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Medium Bore Rifles FEDERAL BRINGS OUT NEW CARTRIDGEGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| one of us |
Federal has brought out a new cartridge....the interesting thing is the case...is some sort of steel alloy , not brass and you can run it to 80,000 psi | ||
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I don't think I well be jumping on the band wagon. https://www.federalpremium.com/news.html?id=2001 ANOKA, Minnesota - January 7, 2025 - Federal Ammunition launches a ground-breaking long-action hunting cartridge that raises the bar for what a non-magnum, centerfire rifle hunting load can achieve. The patented Peak Alloy one-piece, high-strength case boosts the new Federal-designed 7mm Backcountry cartridge, which provides magnum performance in a standard bolt face rifle. Through 20-inch barrels and with 170-grain bullets, it can achieve 3,000 feet per second. | |||
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I will pass! | |||
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I'm sure it comes in a "chassis" rifle that looks like the stock was salvaged from a wrecking yard by an amateur welder and is equipped with a scope that is larger and longer than the rifle. A number of years ago an outfit was selling steel case heads which screwed onto a brass body. They advertised safe working pressures of around 70K to 80K. Fine, no problem in a bolt action made of modern steels. Of course, powder gas temperature is roughly proportional to pressure, so you can expect the throat to burn out by the time you get it sighted in. Also, report (muzzle blast) is roughly proportional to muzzle pressure, so if the bullet doesn't kill your quarry then the shock wave will at least deafen it. Bottom line: Great idea! Federal will likely sell quite a few to novices. | |||
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The US Army has already adopted a high pressure round; the 6.8x51. There is also a standard brass round for it; standard pressure. So, this is not really new. You guys sound like the curmudgeons in 1852; This new fangled brass case cartridge will never catch on; I'll stick to my proven cap lock.... (Of course the Federal thing is a gimmick; but ammo companies do need new products to make money) I remember the Steelhead cases too. What is wrong with chassis stocks? Nothing. Innovation, often at first viewed as useless, is never a bad thing. Let the market decide. | |||
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It is no faster than a handful of 7mm crushes, and I am sick of all these long past 500 yards (and that is really too far for most under field conditions including me) marketing. I do not care. Federal should worry about making cartridges that we have. | |||
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There are 7mm that can go faster, but they need 26 barrels to do it. This new cartridge does matches the velocity of some of these bigger cartridges but does it with a 20 inch barrel. This lets you use a shorter lighter rifle, even if you add a suppressor. Both advantageous to those who hunt where you do a lot of long walks in the mountains to hunt. As far as muzzle blast and recoil, both will be less than the other big 7mm's. Muzzle blast isn't caused as much by pressure as the mass and velocity of the ejecta from behind the bullet. Velocity of this ejecta is about 5,000 fps. This new cartridge with a significantly smaller powder charge has much less ejecta as the larger cartridges do. This less mass of ejecta is a great reduction in recoil as well. This lower powder charge having less ejecta will have less barrel wear. Yes, heat does effect barrel wear, so does the sand blasting effect of the ejecta. The blend of the powder they use is designed to limit the heat and ejecta. In testing barrel wee is about the same as the 280 AI. Which is not as rough on barrels as the 7mm Rem Mag. With all this the recoil is about the same as most any of the cartridges used in a standard -06 action that shoots the same bullet weights. If I was in the market for a rifle for the use this cartridge was designed for then I would give it a consideration. Just having something different than what you see all the time has it's own appeal. With the rifles I have now and the uses I put them to I have no need of this new one. As far as how well it succeeds is something only the future can tell. The only way to know if you can do a thing is to do it. | |||
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The only way to know if you can do a thing is to do it. | |||
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I like the idea, but the inability to be reloaded is a big detriment to me. I do also worry we'll get trapped (out of reloading) by the dearth of copper and brass due to all the data centers they're building. | |||
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Federal claims the alloy steel case is reloadable, but I've not yet seen any of the die makers jump in with their own news of offerings and (likely) new procedures. Also, can the neck of that case be annealed? Dunno. | |||
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Yes, I believe it is also named the .277 SIG Fury and was introduced by SIG Sauer in 2019. It’s a little different from the new Federal cartridge in that it uses a hybrid 3-part case having a steel case head, brass body, and an aluminum locking washer. And at this point, I believe, is available only in this beauty:  More at home on the battlefield than in the hunting woods! Hard to see it gaining any traction from hunters or handloaders. From what I’ve read about this cartridge, it doesn’t improve on .270 Win. ballistics, although it is a shorter case. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
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The first thing i did was to see if the case can be reformed into an 06 case, it cant....bit disappointing!!!!! | |||
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Am I right in thinking such high velocities from short barrels will be achieved by use of fast powders, hence the extreme pressures? | |||
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S338 Federal are using a blended powder, i watched a few y tube vids and they said you need to go down to a faster burning powder to achieve the higher vel /pressures Daniel | |||
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Another solution looking for a problem to solve. That’s a hard pass for me as my Rem 7 mag is very effective at the ranges that I choose to shoot. NRA Patron member | |||
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Amen. However, the "problem" it "solves" is how to get younger, less experienced shooters to buy something that can be sold at an exorbitant price so as to help maintain the company's bottom line. As to muzzle blast, yes, the muzzle pressure is a huge factor in how much muzzle blast is created (the mass of the bullet is TOTALLY irrelevant. An otherwise inert object makes no noise, and in this case the bullet's movement only makes a sonic "crack", which is an insignificant part of muzzle blast.) It is an unbreakable law of physics that when you shorten the barrel that you increase the muzzle pressure. The combination of very high overall pressures and a truncated barrel make a suppressor almost essential. Of course, the high pressure will make the DB attenuation of the suppressor less effective, rendering a significantly louder report than with a cartridge generating lower pressures. Maintaining the suppressor would be a bitch, but considering that ammunition -- only obtainable from one source in limited loadings -- will probably be upwards of $10 a pop, so very few of the people who are conned into buying this "innovation" will be able to afford to shoot enough to worry about barrel burnout or suppressor maintenance. Problems solved! Remember "Trounds"? Maybe not, but it was handgun ammunition that had a -- I kid you not -- had a triangular case. How about the Gyrojet? A caseless .45 round that was actually a small rocket and was fired by a swinging hammer within the "barrel" (launching tube) hitting it on the nose. And Remington's electrically-fired ammunition? Hmmm . . . wonder where that went? By the way, I'm having a little difficulty in finding ammo for my Daisy Caseless .22, but I'm sure they'll get a new batch in at Walmart sometime this year. Makes me long for the good old days of firearms "innovation" like renaming the .244 Remington as the "6mm Remington Magnum", then a little later dropping the "magnum" since it caused some people to think it had a belt. At least these "innovations" came at a pretty cheap price for both the seller and the buyer. Somehow I missed owning a 7mm Express Remington, but I do have a .280 Remington which is nearly as good. Oh yeah, anybody still got any of those steel head screw-on cases? I thought not. But at least you do use your Wanda all-plastic shotshells on a regular basis, right? | |||
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I also dislike short barrels | |||
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I would like to see this technology applied to larger caliber rifles. We've seen what people were able to do with the 400 Whelen on a 30-06 case. What if we were able to get 375 h&h performance out of this smaller case? What if you had a whole line of .338 - .411 rounds built off a 240 Why case using this new tech? I've seen people running QL with a 280 Ack (very similar case capacity) at 80k psi and the recoil was very close to a 7mm prc. Faster powders to burn in the case instead of the barrel. I'm not going to buy one of these rifles, but I will remain optimistic that the technology will open up new possibilities. | |||
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Hey, dpcd, I'm not against innovation, just find gimmickry useless. This smacks of an instance in which a munitions manufacturer spent a lot of money and effort to create something they hoped to sell to the Pentagon (or some hapless foreign military leader with a lot of confetti on his uniform to go with his sunglasses.) But since no one in the military had any use for it (having numerous other, more outrageous weapon systems on which to lavish their money), the company is trying to cut its losses by peddling it to the same guys whose interest in their AR's has waned and are now looking for something "bigger and better". The most interesting question to ask about this "innovation" is what kind of primers and just how thick and stiff do the cups have to be to withstand +50% pressures? Will the striker mechanism of the rifle have to be considerably heavier in order to dependably set off these super-primers? Just wondering. Or maybe you can ignite them with a blow on the nose of the bullet just like the Gyrojet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet Or maybe they'll go full cyber with the Etronx system: https://sportingshooter.com.au...-marvel-that-bombed/ But if they're going to keep the same old cylindrical shape to the ammunition I see no need for it. Let's really go innovation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardick_tround You'll notice that most of these firearms "innovations" were intended to sell to the government on the theory that the government will buy anything. When they bombed the designers tried to pawn them off on the civilian market with very little success. Go Federal! | |||
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Ho hum.... NRA Benefactor Member US Navy Veteran | |||
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So now the weak link will be the primer. I’m not adverse to them trying new things, but I don’t know that the 80KPSI is that wonderful an idea. The idea with the military 6.8x51 is they want a full auto capable round with armor penetration. The army has little concern about wear and tear on the weapon in combat- they do care enough to develop a low pressure conventional alternative ammo to train with. I think this is going to cause issues with logistics for them. For hunters, it’s less of a logistical issue. Fewer shots, and very few shoot hunting rifles enough to wear them out (even just the barrel…). Probably not a big deal with reloading- we are not the majority of hunters even. I do think that it will be even harder to get factory velocity with steel cases ammo- using canister grade powder and likely less/different pressure warning signs. That being said, is a 7 BC rifle really going to be substantially lighter and easier to use than a 7 rem mag? What problem, other than sales targets does this solve? If you want one, no problem… but I’m not happy about not being able to find ammo or components as easily or affordably as previously which is caused by less availability of existing cartridges due to market splitting. Oh, and if you buy one, check out how available ammo for an etronix rifle or a .17 M2 (or a .327 federal, or a .30 TC, or etc. are now. Being an early adopter has its risks. | |||
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The concept is sound but I’d rather see the new case material used for the .300 RUM or .30-378 Wby. Magnum. In one of those monster overbore calibers - at an 80,000 psi chamber pressure! - what velocity and trajectory do you think would be possible with a 180 grain .308 caliber bullet out of a 26 to 28 inch barrel?! Or in a .338 Lapua or one of the Chey-Tacs?! Death ray time! Snipers rejoice! Just need a quick-change barrel system on the rifle. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Just shoot a Warbird. | |||
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| One of Us |
I suspect some long-range competition shooters will be experimenting with this soon, if they aren't already. Let's face it, extra velocity is not only helpful for long-range hunting, it also reduces time to target, which is one of the big drivers for wind drift, and wind drift is one of the biggest issues for long-range target shooters. | |||
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While I’m not intrigued by the new cartridge, I own several carbines that might benefit from that new powder…as long as normal operating pressures can be used. Damn right its loaded, it makes a lousy club. -JW | |||
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It amazes me that companies complain about how hard it is to supply shooters with reloading powder, that it is not their fault, there is a shortage of ingredients (if you will) to produce powders, are "having" to discontinue/stop production on powders for reloaders, etc., but still manage to come out with a new cartridge/powder, to produce it. The same goes for brass. "Can't find brass for your Krag, or Colt SAA in 38-40? No problem! We just came out with a brand new cartridge, the 30 Super Carry(or whatever they call it)!" See, problem solved! | |||
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I get my best highest velocity by getting closer for the shot!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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So, what’s to stop loading a common case( 30.06, 270, etc) with this new steel case and powder to get 80,000 psi pressure and velocity? Formally Bwana1. | |||
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The new steel case is not offered in these cartridges. And it's very unlikely that it ever will be. They want to promote their new cartridge. ______________________________ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. - Bertrand Russell | |||
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I realize that. However,what’s to stop someone making a steel case that can handle these pressures in common calibers? Formally Bwana1. | |||
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Precisely. I would think the military would be interested in using this new case material not in a common caliber, but in an overbore sniper caliber, such as one of the big .300 magnums, the .338 Lapua Mag. or the .375 or .408 Chey-Tac. Maybe even the .50 BMG. Muzzle velocities possible at 80,000 psi chamber pressure with long barrels would surely flatten trajectories and make long range sniping work significantly easier. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Ummm . . . perhaps not so much. Trajectory is easy to calculate if the distance is known, so a few hundred fps doesn't really help much in that regard. Wind is a MUCH larger factor in long-range shooting, and while higher velocity helps a bit, it doesn't help enough to raise the hit ratio by a significant margin. Also, the barrel-destroying pressure of an 80,000 psi round and the attendant higher temperatures would seem to largely negate whatever marginal advantage the extra velocity provided. What's the point of more velocity if the throat is toast by the time you get the rifle sighted in and fire a modicum of training rounds? | |||
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You are underselling the reductions in bullet drop and wind drift that 4-500 fps or more MV can provide when using a VLD long range bullet. And we are talking military snipers here. Who cares if the barrel loses gilt-edged accuracy after 1,000 or 2,000 rounds? That's what quick replacement barrel systems and armorers are for. I guarantee you SOCOM are already experimenting with this concept. We'll be hearing about it, but probably only after they've already put it into service. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I don't doubt that the military has already experimented with this concept since cartridge cases of various materials capable of containing 80,000 psi have been around for decades. If there were some advantage then ultra-high pressure rounds would have been adopted long ago. | |||
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Right. Just like they would have developed and implemented the only recently adopted 6.8x51 NGSW hybrid round (aka .277 SIG Fury) decades ago - since, of course, they could have done so. Man, you give way too much credit to the Ordnance Corps, not to say the military in general! But now that they have been smacked in the head with it by Federal and the stuff is truly available, they will have to pay attention. And SOCOM has more leeway in any case, although they are also slow on the uptake. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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My understanding is that it appeals to the guys shooting with suppressors. They want to use a short barrel so that the overall length doesn't get ridiculous and this allows them to do this and still have the velocity of a 7mm mag wearing a 24-26" barrel. I myself have looked at the 6.5 PRC in rifles with 20 inch barrels, usually carbon fiber wrapped, that are now probably at Creedmoor velocities due to the shorter barrel. For me, the allure of the PRC is that it is considerably faster than the Creedmoor so I have not interest in a short barreled PRC. My thoughts on it anyway. | |||
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Yes, it is obviously being marketed as a way to get full velocity in a shorter, suppressed barrel. What the marketing doesn't mention is that the greatly increased muzzle pressure will both be very hard on the suppressor and that the report will be notably louder than the same bullet at the same velocity from a round which yields a much lower muzzle pressure. Peter may get paid only if Paul gets robbed. | |||
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btw. This is not a new concept, about 40 years or more ago a product of a standard case came out with a steel rear portion of a given case caliber that screwed into the standard case and they claimed 80,000 PSI also. It worked as a matter of fact but was very expensive. I have a couple of those cases somewhere around here... I shot some very hot loads in the 30-06, got 300 Wby velocity. It was do able and seemed OK, and primers in the steel case head were fine, but I wasn't comfortable with it and saw no need,and never really followed up on it, other than a few test firings. The company advertised in some of the gun rags. Some of the AR curmudgeons probably remember those. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I couldnt agree more. They just keep reinventing the wheel. Cant say that the idea of putting steel cases in reloading dies excites me either. If I need more velocity Ill just get a bigger case, and there are already plenty to choose from. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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bghntr416 hit the nail in my opinion. I always liked the .264 bullet but I am a nut for speed also therefore when the 6.5 PRC came out I jumped. I shoot two of them now and continued to be greatly impressed. Good Shooting. phurley | |||
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