Over the years Ive worn out a dozen or so reloading books. What always has been an amazement is the 358 NOrma..Its ballistics are phenomenal and it surpases the .338 by a tad, but its never been popular...

I tested one at my range for a friend the other day and it delivers the mail, and surpasses the loading books somewhat when pushed to its limit, but a safe limit in the gun I tested. It could use a long throat, and perhaps lengthening the magazine a bit and wow it would cook..Some many years ago I traded for a 35 wildcat (based on a 300 H&H case, shoulder blown out) and it was a whiz banger and gave up nada to the 375 H&H, but alas it went by the wayside somewhere along the trade route.

but the great 358 Norma, like all 35s, failed on the American market, and apparently always will..I think we missed a bet but doubt that I will ever own one or hunt with one..Im satisfied with the .338 Win.

A few years back I hunted elk with Jack Derosier and his family out of John day, OR. They really like the 35 cal. For close-in cover they'd carry the 358 Win, but for general use they had 358 Normas. They used Jack's Blue Mountain bullets with great success, including a nice 5 pointer. The 358 Norma is a great cartridge, as shown by the success of the slightly smaller 338 Win Mag and the less powerful 35 Whelen. It is a quandary to me why it has never gained the popularity that it deserves. But then, I guess I'm also to blame, since I don't own one, either.

Yeah...ME TOO.

I've looked at that cartridge many times over the years and ALMOST, but not quite, did a barrel...and ALMOST, but not quite, bought a nice used one. I have a Marlin 336 in 356 Win I like very much but thats all...never did a 35 Whelen either??? ...doing one is never very far from my mind, but when I look at my bullet shelves now I shudder to think of stocking up on ANOTHER caliber.

8 mm and 35 Cal seem to be an anathema to US hunters or at least most of them and the few 8 mm I've seen in the field were either straight, slightly customized Military M98's or re-chambered to 8 mm -06. Seems strange as the 8 mm at 0.323" is dead canter between 0.308" and 0.338" and should have been one of those things surrounded by LOTS of dust-ups All the hair splitting aside the 8 mm-06 will do every thing a 338-06 will do and I've had one of those for a good 50 years...never thought much about doing a M98 conversion...go figure.

Madison Ave has us by the short and curly's when it comes to way to many things.

Good Hunting

I had my Model 700 Classic 35WAI rebarreled with a 14" twist Shilen, braked, converted to magnum for the 358 Norma last year. I had my dies/brass, all set. I bought a box of DoubleTap 180TTSX ammo and shot it 10 times zeroing then the last three cut one jagged hole.
Then I got my Tax Bill...had to sell 'everything" and refinance my house! Obammacare put the screws to me big time! But the round certainly had a lot going for it!

On further contemplation, I do know why. As noted by Non, the problem was a supply-side issue. In the 60s when the magnums really surged the only highly available/well constructed bullet was the Nosler Partition. The NP and other large production bullets designed for magnum velocities were not available for several years. Bullets available in 35 cal were designed for the 35 Rem and the 358 Win. Additionally, the only factory 358 Norma rifles available were rarely seen in the US. So in the 1960s if someone wanted a magnum rifle over 30 cal with readily available ammo & suitable bullets, he/she needed to go with the 338 or 375. Since the 375 required a longer action, the only option was the 338. So the marketers pushed the 338 to the exclusion of other fine and in some situations, superior cartridges. If you wanted a standard length action in a larger than 30 bore magnum, your choice was the 338 Win Mag. the 8m Rem Mag, 358 Norma, and various European/wildcat cartridges all came much later, when the 338 had such a lead it was insurmountable.

A couple of years ago, in the interest of learning to shoot left handed (my right eye is down the drain), I bought a LH Model 77 Ruger in 7mm Remington Magnum. On an impulse, I sent the rifle out to Clearwater Reboring (alas, no longer in business), and had it rebored and rechambered to .358 Norma. Unwilling to pay Norma prices for brass, I simply necked up once fired 7mm RM cases and banged away.

I am not a fan of practicing with heavy loads, so I took advantage of a plethora of jacketed .357 pistol bullets and assembled a load using AA 5744 which proved to be quite accurate and easy on the shoulder. I have yet to try the cartridge out on game, but that is definitely in the plan for the future. My adeptness with shooting off the left shoulder has improved considerably.

I should mention that I am hopelessly enamored of .35 caliber rifles. Among my accumulation are rifles in .35 Remington, 9X56 Mannlicher Schownauer, 9X57 Mauser, .35 Whelen, .35 Brown Improved Whelen, .350 G&H Magnum and .350 Rigby. I have killed game with most of them, and am working on giving the rest a try as well.

I have always read/heard that bullet selection has been the biggest drawback on the various .35 calibers.

Damn! This thread has convicted me.

I've been talking about making a 358 Norma for a number of years now, and I guess I'm in the same boat as the rest of you guys. I do not own one, and never have.

But I want one!

I own a Winchester Custom Shop SS/syn 358 STA, (12) 35 Whelens (yeah, I like the cartridge), and just traded off two PF Whelens. And NO 358 Normas. THAT has to change.

Like Ray said, it's close to a 338WM, and the WM is a killer round. Plus ammo is easy to come by, both here and Africa. I own (10) 338WMs, so it's not like I don't like the cartridge. My last two safaris in Zambia have been taken with 1) 404 Jeffery & 338WM and 2) 404 Jeffery & 35 Whelen. Both medium bores served me extremely well. I've taken more animals with my 338WM than any other I believe. Yet, for distances up to 300 yds., I believe I prefer the Whelen. The Norma would be better than both, except for ammo availability, and the 338WM wins that argument hands down.

But like Ray also said, the 358 Norma is a little bit better than the 338WM. .020 thousandths is a fairly big leap up in caliber. The Norma also separates itself a bit with just a few grains more lead in the heavier bullets: 280 vs. 275 and 310 vs. 300. Plus with the bigger caliber we get a nice jump in velocity: 250 @ 2,660 for the Win. Mag. vs. 250 @ 2,790 for the Norma. Bigger caliber, heavier bullets, better velocity. What's not to like? Yet, the American people, or corporate America, does not like the 35 caliber it seems.

So, who cares? I WILL build one some day.

One other parameter that could be a possibility, availability of Factory ammo, ANYWHERE.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I have always read/heard that bullet selection has been the biggest drawback on the various .35 calibers.

That is undoubtably true.

However, they have enough offerings to keep me happy for a medium bore:
1) 200 gr. Hornady SF IL @ 2,900 fps.

2) 225 gr. Federal Prem. TBBC @ 2,600 fps.

3) 250 gr. Nosler NP @ 2,500 fps.

4) 310 gr. Double Tap WL @ 2,300 fps.

The above are just 35 Whelen loads.

And custom loaded ammo with 280 gr. SAF & 275 BBS (old A-SQ) with same POI,
And custom loaded ammo with both 310 WL soft & solid with same POI.

Also, North Fork makes a nice 270 gr. bullet, and Woodleigh makes a 275 gr. PP.

And of course, all of the pistol bullets to use to one's content, but I do not, as I use the 35s mostly for large ungulates/antelope. However, I did use my Whelen for all manner of game, big and small, when I was on safari in Zambia as it was what I had in my hands, and the 404 was just too big!

I have not found the 35s wanting for bullet selection for my hunting at least anyway. YMMV.

In my .35 Whelen I use nothing but 225 grain Barnes, either X-Flat Base or TSX.

If I had a .358 Norma that is probably what I would use in it.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
In my .35 Whelen I use nothing but 225 grain Barnes, either X-Flat Base or TSX.

If I had a .358 Norma that is probably what I would use in it.

Good choices!

For my use, if I build a 358 Norma some day, my main bullet will be the 280 SAF.

I guess I will rain on the parade. While I have no real desire for a .35 magnum, it has more to do with its uses than anything... what game animal in what situation can I take with it that I cannot with either of its surrounding more popular cartridges?

The .338 mag has long range and big in North America covered. The.375 H&H covers the bigger beasts, and meets international legal minimums for the bigger stuff in Africa.

If you want one, great, but it really doesn’t meet a real or even a perceived need. That, IMO, is why it’s not popular. Get rid of the .375 minimum in many places and it might make more inroads.

quote:

but it really doesn’t meet a real or even a perceived need.

If that is part of the criteria used in getting a rifle, take up checkers or basket weaving.

BULLET SELECTION...hummm...just how many bullets/weights and types do you actually need...This is a question that has haunted me for 60 odd years. 90 % or more of the game I've hunted were killed with the cheapest cup and core bullets I could find and (luckily) never lost a steak...or cast lead and some godawful messes I swaged and many FMJ's with the tips ground down a bit. The old "urban myth" you need a million different bullets to cover every conceivable scenario has always seemed a bit overkill...there has ALWAYS been sufficient 35 cal bullets in all the various configurations to take every type of game on the earth...but we STILL WANT/NEED? MORE???? You just have to look at the present day selection or think back to "the day" and try NOT to be too biased. (Keeps the Spice flowing tho')

Good Hunting

I have owned a number of 358 Normas. The first was built on an old Rem P-14 action.That gun shot well . At the time the only bullets that were available to me were the 250 gr Hornady round nose and the 250 gr Speer spire pt. Neither held together very well at full throttle speeds under 100 yds. I found up close the Hornady was a bit tougher. If you got out to 175-200yds or more the Speer bullet did quite well.Great moose gun. One of my sons laid claim to that rifle so it is long gone. Several mauser 98's have come and gone. The 358 I presently use is a Husqvarna model 1600. A couple lbs lighter and much nicer to handle. Reguarding some of the loading data. First some of the older Norma brass was quite soft.Apparantly Norma intentionally made it soft so you would loosen primer pockets long before pressures ever got high enough to fail in some questionable actions. Norma cases were often hard to find and expensive so I used a lot of 338 cases (usually Win). Once fire formed they would handle charges several grains above the Norma cases.Ballistics were improved considerably. Bullet wise things are MUCH better now. Yes there are more 338 cal bullets but there are enough good 358 cal bullets to cover most situations. I would suggest the lightest bullet you would want to use is a 225 gr. Nosler makes 2 good ones, the 225 gr Accubond and the 225 gr Partition.The 225 gr Barnes TSX is also very good. For bigger game the 250 gr Partition is hard to beat. If you want more penetration the Swift A-frame in 280 grs will penetrate like crazy. There is also some very good Woodliegh bullets readily available. There are others but I have found those to cover my bullet needs.

Surefire7 said it right there is no shortage of excellent .358 bullets. My bunch has been shooting a couple of .358 STA’s for many years now when we are after game larger than Deer or in dangerous game country. Northfork is our bullet of choice in 225,250 and 270 grains. Swift A-Frame from 225 grains up to 280, Nosler Partitions, Barnes of several sizes all offer excellent choices. We tend to pick the tougher bullets because of the speeds we load to but there are .358 bullets for all chamberings out there. Good Shooting.

The .338 is as good as the 358 Norma, but the 358 has the cross section of bullet and that counts in my book but is condemned by many..I have and 8x60S and its darn close as is my 9.3x62..Maybe I just don't really need a 35 I guess, I always back off when I build a new gun..Hmmmmm.

There are several terrific cartridges on the more powerful end of the medium bore continuum. For better or worse, the 375 H&H is so good it crowds out the rest. A hundred year head start helps too. I wish we had more everyday opportunities in North America to put to use this class of medium bores. Then we’d split hairs looking for the penultimate medium bore the way we split hairs over deer cartridges. Alas, if that were the case all the smart hunters would be shooting a 9.3X64 Brenneke like me.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
I guess I will rain on the parade. While I have no real desire for a .35 magnum, it has more to do with its uses than anything... what game animal in what situation can I take with it that I cannot with either of its surrounding more popular cartridges?

The .338 mag has long range and big in North America covered. The.375 H&H covers the bigger beasts, and meets international legal minimums for the bigger stuff in Africa.

If you want one, great, but it really doesn’t meet a real or even a perceived need. That, IMO, is why it’s not popular. Get rid of the .375 minimum in many places and it might make more inroads.

I agree, minimum caliber in Africa should be 0.358"

Most Norma's I have read about have been hotloads.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Over the years Ive worn out a dozen or so reloading books. What always has been an amazement is the 358 NOrma..Its ballistics are phenomenal and it surpases the .338 by a tad, but its never been popular...

I tested one at my range for a friend the other day and it delivers the mail, and surpasses the loading books somewhat when pushed to its limit, but a safe limit in the gun I tested. It could use a long throat, and perhaps lengthening the magazine a bit and wow it would cook..Some many years ago I traded for a 35 wildcat (based on a 300 H&H case, shoulder blown out) and it was a whiz banger and gave up nada to the 375 H&H, but alas it went by the wayside somewhere along the trade route.

but the great 358 Norma, like all 35s, failed on the American market, and apparently always will..I think we missed a bet but doubt that I will ever own one or hunt with one..Im satisfied with the .338 Win.

The only thing that would persuade me to not own a 358 Norma Magnum is no brake. Otherwise I will take a brake and 308 Winchester recoil any day.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
On further contemplation, I do know why. As noted by Non, the problem was a supply-side issue. In the 60s when the magnums really surged the only highly available/well constructed bullet was the Nosler Partition. The NP and other large production bullets designed for magnum velocities were not available for several years. Bullets available in 35 cal were designed for the 35 Rem and the 358 Win. Additionally, the only factory 358 Norma rifles available were rarely seen in the US. So in the 1960s if someone wanted a magnum rifle over 30 cal with readily available ammo & suitable bullets, he/she needed to go with the 338 or 375. Since the 375 required a longer action, the only option was the 338. So the marketers pushed the 338 to the exclusion of other fine and in some situations, superior cartridges. If you wanted a standard length action in a larger than 30 bore magnum, your choice was the 338 Win Mag. the 8m Rem Mag, 358 Norma, and various European/wildcat cartridges all came much later, when the 338 had such a lead it was insurmountable.

Back in the '60s the .30-06 and .375H&H were used in Alaska to hunt everything all the way to bears. And so the introduction of the .338WM as "The Alaskan," which fell right in between the .30-06 and .375H&H. But back then some of the cup-core .338 bullets of the time would not hold together. It took a few years for the .338WM to became popular.

Now. bullet and powder technology has changed for the best in recent years, and this has benefited all cartridges. For example, in the NOS reloading data, version 8.2, the loading data for the .338WM using a 265-grain AccuBond and Norma MRP powder yields over 2745 fps at a maximum powder charge. Using RL19, and RL22, the maximum powder charges still yield over 2700 fps.

I guess I'm like some others here I always wanted a .358 Norma but have never owned one. Oh I've tried several times but it seems every time I find one the used gun gods give it to someone else 5 minutes before I get there.

I've always liked the .35's in general, my favorite black bear rifle is a .350 Rem mag using a 225 grain Nosler Partition bullet. I've shot them with other calibers but the .35's just seem to slam things to ground a little faster.

To me a .358 Norma is just made to shoot 250 grain bullets fast and flat. What's not to like about that.

I have a 358NM and haven't used it much. Probably because I have a 9.3x64, .375H&H, 2x338's, a 35Whelen and others but I still hang onto it, because its easier to just decide to use when you want too.

My 8x64s just does everything I need done except buffalo and that's what the 404J does.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
* * *
I've always liked the .35's in general, my favorite black bear rifle is a .350 Rem mag using a 225 grain Nosler Partition bullet. I've shot them with other calibers but the .35's just seem to slam things to ground a little faster.

Of the various .35s, that .350 Rem Mag was the most underrated. 'Slams critters to the ground hard' is right.

Shot a range buddy's old Remy 660 in .350RM back in the day and loved it from the git. More than my .35Whelen.

In the original compact model 600s, the .350RM made for the perfect Alaskan bush and 'guide' gun - whether irons-only or scoped with a low-mounted 1x-3x. Still does.

quote:

Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
* * *
I've always liked the .35's in general, my favorite black bear rifle is a .350 Rem mag using a 225 grain Nosler Partition bullet. I've shot them with other calibers but the .35's just seem to slam things to ground a little faster.

Of the various .35s, that .350 Rem Mag was the most underrated. 'Slams critters to the ground hard' is right.

Shot a range buddy's old Remy 660 in .350RM back in the day and loved it from the git. More than my .35Whelen.

In the original compact model 600s, the .350RM made for the perfect Alaskan bush and 'guide' gun - whether irons-only or scoped with a low-mounted 1x-3x. Still does.

Barnes got 2943 out of the 350 Remington Magnum using Tac and the 200 Grain TSX.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The .338 is as good as the 358 Norma, but the 358 has the cross section of bullet and that counts in my book but is condemned by many..I have and 8x60S and its darn close as is my 9.3x62..Maybe I just don't really need a 35 I guess, I always back off when I build a new gun..Hmmmmm.

Looking at anything from a 358 Winchester to the 350 Remington Magnum makes one want to use 35 caliber. It is a significantly bigger hole than the 338.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
There are several terrific cartridges on the more powerful end of the medium bore continuum. For better or worse, the 375 H&H is so good it crowds out the rest. A hundred year head start helps too. I wish we had more everyday opportunities in North America to put to use this class of medium bores. Then we’d split hairs looking for the penultimate medium bore the way we split hairs over deer cartridges. Alas, if that were the case all the smart hunters would be shooting a 9.3X64 Brenneke like me.

Absolutely spot on.

What I like about my 358 Norma is that I get great velocity out of 22” barrel. Never shot Factory ammo but it’s a hammer with reloads.

I built a 358 Norma on a Sako L61R recently with a 26" barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
There are several terrific cartridges on the more powerful end of the medium bore continuum. For better or worse, the 375 H&H is so good it crowds out the rest. A hundred year head start helps too.

Yep, that's well said - and the platform for mine is a really accurate and slick-feeding .375 BRNO ZKK 602. But it's a long magnum-action rifle with a long 23" barrel. The .350 Remy Mag gives you some awesome punch using a short-action in the more compact Remy 600-carbine platform.

Someone, maybe CZ, should offer this chambering again in a synthetic stocked carbine model using a CRF 550-type short-action, with an 18.5" barrel.

Calibers aside, these two rifles are really suited to use in two different hunting environs: the BRNO 602 out on the fields, plains, and savannahs; the Remy 600 in the thick alder brushes and the dense woods.

Like many here I always wanted one.
Finally found one reasonable, built on a Mauser 98 and a light 25 1/2" barrel. Played with it, found recoil and muzzle jump not at all bad for a light rifle. After putting it through the loading ropes, finding it's as good as they say, I put it in the corner.
The problem of to many over-lapping rifles/calibers.

So this question got me to thinking and checking out the 35 cal class of cases...I found case volumes ranging from about 50 gr H2O to about 150 gr H20 in about 15 to 25 gr increments starting from the 35 Win and going to several LARGE wildcats. I also compared the 338 and 375 cals which basically ran the same gamet.

It's amazing just what arguments we use to justify our favorite caliber/cartridge and they ALL can be used for each case/caliber and many more besides.

An opportunity just arose that will possibly allow me to have an AR-10 308 barrel re-bored to 338 Fed...an opportunity that I had tossed out years ago. Now I have a 356 Win...several 308's, 8 mm's, 338's and 375's and up...etc., so WHY would I bother with another cartridge with the same case volume as the 356 W and that I already have covered in spades.

Take your pick of the positive and negative arguments...any will do...but basically it always boils down to..."WHO cares a flying flock what YOU think...I just want one" AND I will HAVE ONE, if I possibly can....we ALL need use those arguments to justify what DOESN'T really need to be justified.

So keep on keeping on...it's all good.

Good Hunting

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
I built a 358 Norma on a Sako L61R recently with a 26" barrel.

I went with a Sako factory contour barrel from Lilja. Putting the factory front sight and hood on from the factory barrel. Going to magnaport also.

Planning to fully restore the 61R to factory new. Added Sako rings (without optilock) and a gloss VX-2 3-9 - very retro look. Getting a repro recoil pad from The Custom Shop Inc.

Should look like a period rifle.

Even have the factory rear peep sight that mounts on scope base. Early on, Sako did not have rear sights. Just front and rear peeop.

Austin,

The rig you describe should serve you well.

As I recall, the Sako Finnbear in 375 H&H had the same barrel contour as my 338WM, which made it a bit lighter - something I would not want. Though I love the Sako rifle (except for its skimpy bolt shroud), their peep sight is pretty useless bar for shooting targets, having more tunnel vision than the Brenner Railway.

Your inclination to Magnaport, Austin, may go to the guts of the issue. Recoil is a bigger problem for more hunters than many of us in this forum may realise. So, if something bigger than .30-06 is needed for bears etc, the 338WM fits Elmer Keith's dictum but, in a heavy rifle at least, can still be handled by a fair few of us. Going to heavier calibres may increase power but, to keep the 338's '06-like trajectory, means more recoil again.

While a muzzle brake might solve the kick problem, I'd rather stick with the .338 and save my ears some.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
As I recall, the Sako Finnbear in 375 H&H had the same barrel contour as my 338WM, which made it a bit lighter - something I would not want. Though I love the Sako rifle (except for its skimpy bolt shroud), their peep sight is pretty useless bar for shooting targets, having more tunnel vision than the Brenner Railway.

Your inclination to Magnaport, Austin, may go to the guts of the issue. Recoil is a bigger problem for more hunters than many of us in this forum may realise. So, if something bigger than .30-06 is needed for bears etc, the 338WM fits Elmer Keith's dictum but, in a heavy rifle at least, can still be handled by a fair few of us. Going to heavier calibres may increase power but, to keep the 338's '06-like trajectory, means more recoil again.

While a muzzle brake might solve the kick problem, I'd rather stick with the .338 and save my ears some.

Correct - the Finnbear contour is light for the larger calibers considering the bore diameter.

I magnaport most of my magnum rifles not because of recoil (magnaporting doesn't reduce that much), but barrel jump. Magnaporting keeps the barrel down and scope on target.

I shot the rifle right after I had the new barrel put on (not magnaported yet) to get a spent case for a OAL gauge. Let me tell you.... it was like shooting my unbraked 458 Win Mag. Holy smokes! The factory walnut stock is extremely light and I had no scope on it. Almost chipped a tooth.

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:
Austin,

The rig you describe should serve you well.

I have a whole bevy of bullets I'm trying. Using Norma brass and have a box of factory Norma 250 gr Oryx to start.

Test Bullets are:
225 gr TSX
250 gr Oryx
250 gr Partition
275 gr PP Woodleigh

I have some 250 gr and 275 gr Northforks (that I did load development on for my 35 Whelen - that 250 gr is the boss, but went with 225 gr TSX), but if I used them I would have to lengthen the throat. So I will wait. BTW - I did lengthen the throat on my 35 Whelen to get the TSX .030" off the lands at 3.320" OAL - shoots 4 shots in a single ragged hole.

BTW - I'm tempted to ditch the VX2 3-9 for a S&B 3-12x42 illuminated I just got on sale from Eurooptic for..... $1,065. NIB - holy smokes! Should have bought all their stock.

I flirted with the idea of getting a 358 Norma Mag too but my 338 Win Mag just does everything I need done with a medium bore rifle.

The 338 Win Mag uses a standard length action and there is a large variety of rifles chambered for it. Ammunition and reloading components (bullets) are widely available. It's a more practical choice for me.

These calibers belong to a group called the inbetweeners

In the caliber line up there are the traditional calibers going up in step wise fashion each having perceived and real advantage over each other. Then there are those that fall in between where advantage or ballistic performance is not that distinct from what lies below or above.

The 25 caliber, 323 caliber, 35 caliber.... all fall in this category