Have you tried the very easy and simple task of trying another scope? Everyone is coming up with all sorts of exotic solutions and causes when a simple scope switch may be all you need. That would have been my first step.

I would never have the patience to bother with such a rifle. Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Have you tried the very easy and simple task of trying another scope? Everyone is coming up with all sorts of exotic solutions and causes when a simple scope switch may be all you need. That would have been my first step.

Yes. As mentioned I switched the scope before the last session. It is safe to conclude that neither scope was the issue. As for the model of scope, Nikon are the tough of the tough and I have the "Slughunter" on a 500 Nyati with 6000-7000ftlb loads, not to mention 3-9 "Inline"s for a 416 with 6000 ftlb loads and the mild 375Ruger, another 338 WinMag, and a 270 Win. They are a great scope, one of the little hidden 'finds' of rugged reliability and tracking, clarity, long-eye-relief, and a very attractive price. A person could pay 2-3 times more but wouldn't get more scope (don't tell Nikon! PS: the primary scope scope on the 416 is the Monarch 2-8 Compact, so it actually does have an extra coating that my eye can't distinguish [95% vs. 92% light transmission], and only a 4" eye-relief that my eyebrow doesn't touch).

So the rifle is betting its life on the removal of that 'support pad'. Otherwise, it's off to a gunsmith for a new chamber and maybe a new barrel.

I have been shooting a .338 Win Mag now for over 40 years and had a number of rifles. I have never found them to be hard to work up loads for and to solve accuracy problems. Well except for one.

That one rifle chambered in .338 WM is the only rifle that beat me........... and that was because I refused to throw any more money or time at it. It was a Ruger M77..... one of the first stainless models with that horrendously ugly plastic stock.

In any event, there is a point at which it becomes a throwing good money after bad situation. The world is filled with accurate .338 Win Mag rifles. Put that baby on the auction block and buy a different rifle.

You should rebarrel it chambered in 338 Win Mag

Tanz,

Before you go to the expense of a re-barrel why not undertake a compete rebedding job...

This time:
- Remove all of your bedding material from the stock.
- Purchase and install metal pillars properly cut for the MKII action. Make sure both are the correct length AND that the barreled cation is correctly oriented in the stock before bedding the pillars into the stock. I seem to recollect (at least for the Brownell' Ruger pillars) the front being slightly short requiring a shim while the rear is slightly long requiring judicious filing and re-measuring to obtain the correct length.
- Once the pillars are properly bedded, insure the stock is completely free floating when the barrele action is properly torqued into the pillars.
- Once the barreled action is completely free floating in the stock - glass bed the full action and chamber area of the barrel in a single bedding process. Use bedding screws for alignment; use surgical tubing along the full action to clamp everything together while the bedding sets up.

I personally would glass bed the entire action barrel area in a sing process; I use tape of the correct thickness around the barrel (taped lengthways) from the chamber forward for at least 6" past the stock tip). Doing the bedding in this manner gives me a full contact bedding through the chamber, a very clean free-float line between the chamber and the floated barrel area, plus it fully seals the barreled action cut in the stock. And yes in the past I've also glass bedded the floorplate assembly. And after accomplishing the upper and lower bedding I've sealed all stock cuts against moisture that are not overhead/sealed with the stock finish.

Anyway back to you...
Once you've accomplished the re-bedding, retest your accuracy.
If the barrel remains free floating during your range session, insert a cut piece of index card stock just back of the stock tip to determine if your barreled action requires some tip pressure to tighten groups.
If you're still not satisfied have a local gunsmith re crown the barrel.
If the rifle is still isn't delivering proper accuracy then it'd be time to re-barrel.

Anyway, just some thoughts on the situation...

Thanks, Jim,

I haven't given up on this rifle yet.
And I appreciate the advice to do a super duper bedding job.
However, I've bedded enough rifles in my day to know that the current bedding should already be tight, 'in the ballpark'. If the rifle doesn't start turning in some sub-MOA groups with the barrel pad removed, then there is something fundamentally wrong with it, outside of the bedding.

I will also try the forehand tip shim, though I hope it doesn't need that.

PS: I am leery of a forearm tip shim because in a wood stock they are prone to change pressure with a change in humidity. And I think that a sound action-barrel system should be able to function well without one.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
PS: I am leery of a forearm tip shim because in a wood stock they are prone to change pressure with a change in humidity. And I think that a sound action-barrel system should be able to function well without one.

I agree with your concerns, but I also know a bit of tip pressure was required to bring a few of my M98 rifles into a consistent grouping (light weight thin aftermarket barrels). Wood movement is the reason I'm almost totally using a good synthetic stock these days; I decided function was more important than beauty (though I do still love a good piece of wood).

Another thought for you...
In the not to distant past the plain Ruger black synthetic stocks (not the old boat paddle nor the current squishy stocks) were available for a very reasonable price. They are hard and don't move, they don't weigh to much, and if basic black isn't your color they're easy to paint.

My son and SIL have my two synthetic stocked M77 SA SS Rugers in 300 SAUM and I can't get them back to pillar bed for them as both will group a hair over 1" at 100 yds with multiple bullet weights using Nosler's Custom loaded ammo (all purchased via overstock).

Tanzan,
Two things come to mind as I viewed your glass bedding job early on...

First of all, notice the wood showing in the bottom of the recoil lug, that means the bottom of the recoil lug settled against the wood..take a chisel and releave that area including the glass smear so that the action can settle on the platform behind the recoil lug.

2nd thought is to lightly releave the area "behind" the tang where you glassed the tang in solid, it needs relief in that area..Be sure your front and rear action screws turn freely..

These are important suggestions to accurize a mod 77..IMO

Thank you, Ray, for the extra scrutiny.

Yes, on #2, I cleaned out the round rear tang after taking the picture. The round back has about 1/16" clearance from the round tang to the wood. Even though there is a nice heavy wrist pin in place we don't want cracks and fissures on the top of the wrist from the tang. The parallel sides along the tang area were left in place, of course, in order to add left-right stability in the overall bedding. Both the recoil lug platform area and the tang area have epoxy that is flush on the side and that locks the barreled action in place in the stock, centered in the barrel channel.

On #1, I am not sure that I follow your comments. There is wood showing on the barrel side of the recoil lug, which documents the reference level for the bedding before taping the barrel at the forend. I expected that area to possibly fill in all the way, but there was no 'rocking' or instability at that point (or anywhere) before bedding, I was not aware that the wood was touching or so close to touching the receiver. I can probably safely chip that away, but what would it gain, since it is not under stress nor is it part of the recoil-lug bearing platform?
The area around the recoil lug itself filled up with epoxy all the way to the receiver and provides part of a solid bed.
The lug recess, as mentioned, does not touch in the bottom or on the barrel side because electrical tape was in place during the bedding, plus the Ruger design pulls the lug away from the barrel side by the angled screw. If I do anything I might take a small drill (1/16") and cut in the back corners and side of the lug recess to make sure that there is nothing down there that I cannot see or feel.
On the magazine side of the lug, a few almost-flush high spots were left on the platform area supporting the recoil lug. However, even those were under the surface of the epoxy. There is nothing to chip away without digging into the recoil platform.

I was referring to the bottom of the recoil lug. The sides and bottom should not make wood contact, only the rear portion, except in a Mauser which should be tight as its basically piller bedded by design..Upward pressue slightly behind the forend tip in many cases will make the barrel settle down and shoot. sometime bedding the barrel tight will make a gun shoot...BTW your stock doesn't appear to exhibit warping, I don't know where that came from..

As a last resort I would take all the glass out, anchor the barreled action at the forend tip and the tang with tiny layers of tape or whatever, squeeze it down to center line of the action and barrel and set it in a new batch of glass without anything but stock bolt guides, squeeze it down by had to centerline and let it set up over night.

I have a question, how did it shoot before you bedded it? that's always something one should know.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I was referring to the bottom of the recoil lug. The sides and bottom should not make wood contact, only the rear portion, except in a Mauser which should be tight as its basically piller bedded by design..Upward pressue slightly behind the forend tip in many cases will make the barrel settle down and shoot. sometime bedding the barrel tight will make a gun shoot...BTW your stock doesn't appear to exhibit warping, I don't know where that came from..

As a last resort I would take all the glass out, anchor the barreled action at the forend tip and the tang with tiny layers of tape or whatever, squeeze it down to center line of the action and barrel and set it in a new batch of glass without anything but stock bolt guides, squeeze it down by had to centerline and let it set up over night.

I have a question, how did it shoot before you bedded it? that's always something one should know.

The rifle came with the barrel touching the left forearm so I didn't shoot it out of the box. Rather than sand out the left forearm, I bedded the action, then shot it. As mentioned it shot 3"-5" groups. Thinking that it must be the scope I switched scopes and then shot more of same.
Finally I removed the 1/2" barrel support on the barrel side of the action and also drilled out the recoil lug on the barrel side and any potential high spot under the lug.

On election day I shot it, hoping that I may have solved the problem, and using an old "tested" load 185TTSX 3150fps, 74.5 Rel-17, WLRM primer, Hornady new brass. After a fouling shot, the following picture shows the three-shot group.



0.85" was a great surprise. Was this the result of removing the barrel support pad or was it something under the recoil lug that I hadn't seen and the had slipped in under the electric tape when bedding? I don't know for sure. But the rifle was now shooting as it should. So I adjusted the scope, shot two more shots and then the 300-yard gong:



Those two shots were fine. I was ready to go hunting.


The next day I got a reward from my wife:




What did the .338" 185 gn TTSX do?



It tore up the heart.

At the end of the day all of this work has paid off. Thank you all for helping me sort this out.

In my experience, erratic groups are mostly caused by too much pressure on the mag box when the action screws are tightened. This is easily solved with a small flat or triangle file relieving some metal in the cut puts for the front hanger and trigger guard. The mag box should have a little wiggle rattle when the screws are tight. I've done this with a bunch of M77 Mk ll and Hawkeye rifles . If the mag doesn't rattle when the floor plate is opened and you try to move the mag box from under neath with a couple fingers. Chances are , at a minimum, the harmonics are being disrupted. And at worst the receiver is being "bent" over the mag box. Regular 1" hunting scopes have given me far too many problems and cost me hundreds in ammo chasing a pos scope around the target. I would put a 30 mm Tac scope like a Vortex Viper PST or a SWFA, like the 3-9×42 Or 3-15 ×42 on it in Ruger rings. Not being a wood stock guy, I've gotten so it's either laminate or synthetic. They may not be as pretty. But they usually shoot a lot better.
It also sounds like that particular 200 gr bullets do not get along with your rifle. I've always gotten better accuracy with 250-300 gr bullets in Ruger 338s . But that is printing sub 1/2" groups . I had a load with 300 gr Barnes Originals that averaged 2500 fps and would shoot 5/8" 3 shot groups at 200 meters.

quote:

It also sounds like that particular 200 gr bullets do not get along with your rifle.

I haven't yet checked out the 200gn MTH with the stable-shooting rifle but will check out the 200 gn MTH again next year, now that the rifle is shooting like it should. I expect that they will shoot well, too, although their design might require finding the proper seating depth before sub-MOA groups are found.

To summarize:

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YES.

Well you damn sure got'er fixed, and didn't even need to buy a new stock!! Somewhere in that mess was a protrusion that you removed, good job!!..and you now have winner...I have found that 99.9% of these accuracy problems can be fixed to one degree or another. Some take longer to fix than others.

First thing I would do is quit cleaning the bore. . I bet that if you run 100 rounds thru it without cleaning . It will season up and really start shrinking group size. Any more , I only clean my barrel when accuracy starts going south. My 9.3 +6.5 haven't been cleaned in well over a year. The 6.5 has over 300 rounds down the barrel since its last cleaning and is still printing 3/8" groups . As long as I do my part. 9.3 is probably only 100 rounds since its last cleaning and is shooting great. I never got into this deep cleaning of a rifles barrel when it came into being hard core in the 80s and as soon as Bore Snakes came out I went to them exclusively. I only pack a section cleaning rod to remove bore obstructions . And, I tape my muzzle when hunting.

Cold Finger--I've sometimes put a balloon over the muzzle for keeping rain and debris out when hunting, but I've never tested if it has any effect on bullet stability or accuracy. I've assumed that the balloon gets out of the way of the bullet.

As for boresnakes and sectioned rods, I do the same thing. The only cleaning that I do with hunting is run a bore snake through a barrel. And I carry a sectioned cleaning rod in case I need to remove mud or some obstruction from a barrel.

However, I have to put away some of my rifles for a year at a time and then I will clean them with patches and cleaning fluid followed by a synthetic oil preservative/anti-rust.

Blued steel gets cleaned before storage . But, I don't worry about stainless. But, a Bore Snaking and lube is probably not a bad idea.
I use a good bit of tape, like Gorilla tape or electrical tape. I'm fairly positive that by the time the bullet is half way down the barrel, the tape is gone from the muzzle from air pressure.

Im high on the boresnake as the best invention since sliced white bread..One pass is the equivalent of 180 patches passed down the bore with a rod, and rods will wear a chambers throat in a lot of cases. I try my best not to clean a gun, if I can get away with it..

Anytime I am hunting, I have a strip of electricians tape over the muzzle with a back-up strip wound around the barrel. Shooting through it does not affect accuracy in any way. I have read that the column of air being pushed out of the barrel by the bullet ruptures the tape before the bullet get to the muzzle (sounds right).
If a dirty barrel improves your accuracy, wonder why bench rest shooters clean between each relay?

The way bench testers clean their custom , hand lapped barrels is far more involved than what a bore snake will accomplish with a few passes. For the average factory barrel, letting the amount of fouling build up to the right point can make a rough barrel shoot very well. Alot of PRS shooters only clean when accuracy starts falling off.
Why waste time effort and money if the barrel doesn't like or need it to shoot right.
If the barrel is unknown and not showing good accuracy. It can be cleaned perfectly then shot in to see where it comes into its best accuracy. Then shot to where the accuracy starts to degrade. That will tell how much cleaning the barrel needs.

No, Bench resters usually push a couple of patches saturated with cleaner through the barrel, followed by a couple of clean patches. then repeat if needed.
I think this "shoot until it loses accuracy" idea is pushed by the crowd that bring their rifles in, sticks them in the back of the closet, and there they sit until next hunting season.

I know a good competitor who shoots on team Hornady that only cleans every 400 rounds or when accuracy starts to go. And yes some bench resters do swab the bore between strings. How much it helps I dont know. But occasionally they Really clean the bore down to bare steel. And That is a cery involved process.
But, if someone wants to really scrub out their barrel . Have fun. Just dont be suprised if the rifle doesnt shoot very well.

Oh yeah, well I know a guy that wins every contest he enters and he cleans to the medal between every shot.....
I don't know what your buddy is shooting nor what he's shooting at but it ain't any contest that I've ever heard of. What sort of contest are you talking about that you wait 400 rounds between cleanings?
And please don't tell me that cleaning to the metal screws up your accuracy. I've done it to too many barrels, box and custom, to believe that. What kinda sewer pipe barrels are you talking about.

He shoots PRS style matches. With his custom 6.5 Creedmoor. Bartlien 5R . And he shoots 3gun matches.
My 6.5 is still printing 1/2 moa and smaller and it hasn't been cleaned in a long time. Hundreds of rounds ago.
Tibarasaurus Rex has a good you tube vid on barrel cleaning on his Sniper 101 series.
I'm not the only guy that advocates reduced barrel cleaning.
I'm curious what kind of match allows enough time to clean the bore between shots . I believe IBS allows enough time between strings of fire to swab the barrel out. I know in PRS they are too busy running and climbing ect to do any cleaning.
I'm not interested in arguing about this. You want to scrub out your barrel every time you turn around , fine by me .

I was recently looking at published load data on the 338WM and was pleasantly surprised by Nosler.

For the 250 grain Nosler Partition they list the most accurate powder as H4831 and 71.5gn for 2780 fps as the max velocity. That is 4289 foot-pounds. Basically, that is in the class of 375H&H and 340Weatherby factory loads. It strikes me as optimistic for the 338WM.

But Nosler also lists Rel-19, 73 grains for 2738fps and 4160 ft.lbs, and Rel-22 75gn for 2745fps. So it is presented as a general power level with multiple powders. However, the 71.5 grain level of H4831 may be a faster batch, since they use 73 grains of Rel-19, normally a faster powder than H4831, yet for a slightly slower velocity. Rel-17 was not listed, and one wonders whether 69 or 70 grains of Rel-17 might also reach the H4831 levels.

So the over-4100 ftlb loadings appear reasonable, even though most factory loads suggest 3900ftlbs as the power rating for the cartridge. Nosler even lists their Accubond 180gn with 76gn H4350 for 3281fps and 4302 ftlbs!

what are Nosler's tricks? They are only using a 24" Wiseman barrel, so barrel length is not the reason. It would appear to reflect a plasticity in the Nosler Partition bullet that ameliorates the pressure curve.
In any case, the 338 WinMag should be considered a 4000ftlb. cartridge, a level that I also get with monolithic like the 185TTSX and 225TTSX.

With what bullet weight are they getting 2780 fps ? That is a standard 225 gr bullet velocity in the 338 Win mag.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
With what bullet weight are they getting 2780 fps ? That is a standard 225 gr bullet velocity in the 338 Win mag.

It was the 250 grain Nosler Partition. I have edited my post above and clarified that in the second paragraph. 4289 ft lbs. Those are 338 loads with smack.

Comparing bench rest accuracy with hunter accuracy is a waste of time and effort..the difference in accuracy is in silly millimeters or there abouts...As to how so and so cleans his bench rifle, it depends on who so and so is, some do and some don't, and both may win any given match..Its a whole nuther world, a experience in wonderland...

As to a hunting rifle, more rifles throats are ruined with overcleaning than shooting and we didn't even get into fouling shots, and who in the world would clean their gun during hunting season and have to use fouling shots in camp!! You would get run out of Idaho if you cranked off a few fouling shots in my camp, we try to keep noise down, elk don't like to be disturbed. I personally never clean a gun during the hunting season, short of running a bore snake down the tube and that's a maybe..

I have a super accurate old Ruger 77 in 30-06, if I clean it it scatters shots all over the place and I have to fire about 50 or more fouling shots to make it shoot, then it shoots half inch all day long...I have not cleaned now in about 10 or so years and have no intention to do so under the circumstances..Others require cleaning when they quit shooting to my requirements..just common since and their is no pat answer..

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
With what bullet weight are they getting 2780 fps ? That is a standard 225 gr bullet velocity in the 338 Win mag.

It was the 250 grain Nosler Partition. I have edited my post above and clarified that in the second paragraph. 4289 ft lbs. Those are 338 loads with smack.

Boy, I'll say ! I'll check that out. That is the kind of velocity I would like from a 338 Winchester. But, I don't want to pack around more than a 24" barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I was recently looking at published load data on the 338WM and was pleasantly surprised by Nosler.

For the 250 grain Nosler Partition they list the most accurate powder as H4831 and 71.5gn for 2780 fps as the max velocity. That is 4289 foot-pounds. Basically, that is in the class of 375H&H and 340Weatherby factory loads. It strikes me as optimistic for the 338WM.

But Nosler also lists Rel-19, 73 grains for 2738fps and 4160 ft.lbs, and Rel-22 75gn for 2745fps. So it is presented as a general power level with multiple powders. However, the 71.5 grain level of H4831 may be a faster batch, since they use 73 grains of Rel-19, normally a faster powder than H4831, yet for a slightly slower velocity. Rel-17 was not listed, and one wonders whether 69 or 70 grains of Rel-17 might also reach the H4831 levels.

So the over-4100 ftlb loadings appear reasonable, even though most factory loads suggest 3900ftlbs as the power rating for the cartridge. Nosler even lists their Accubond 180gn with 76gn H4350 for 3281fps and 4302 ftlbs!

what are Nosler's tricks? They are only using a 24" Wiseman barrel, so barrel length is not the reason. It would appear to reflect a plasticity in the Nosler Partition bullet that ameliorates the pressure curve.
In any case, the 338 WinMag should be considered a 4000ftlb. cartridge, a level that I also get with monolithic like the 185TTSX and 225TTSX.

There have always been some books that showed the 338 as being able to push certain 250gr bullets to 2700 fps.. I never rdally stood on the throttle with 250s in any of mine as I was either loading 300 gr Barnes Originals to 2500 fps . And just barely getting it . But for some reason I dont think I ever tried 4831. I got stuck on 7828 and that was a mistake on my part. As I was seriously over compressing the powder. I really needex a thfoating reamer for that bullet as it had a short ogive and had to load to barely over 3.2" . I gave up over 2/10s " from my mag length on the Ruger M77 Mk ll. With the 275 gr KBC. I tried to get 7828 to work. And it kinda sorta worked . But I was still over compressing the powder. I finally tried IMR 4831 and got good consistent velocity at 2660 fps from a 24" and 2640 ish with a 22" barrel. I also got my sd down to around 30 fps. So I was pretty happy with that. It was within spitting distance of the 375 with a 270 gr bullet. But in a nice stainless Ruger. I've never been much of a Model 70 guy. Not that I disliked them . But I far prefer the Ruger. Only problem was , I was limited to a 3.4+" mag box. If I could get 2750 fps with a low sd from a 338/250 gr Scenar. That would be a pretty good long range hunting load for up here. And I imagine it would work ok up close also. The other bullet I would like to wring out is the 265 gr TTSX BT. With a throated chamber and HBN tumbeling I might get in the mid 2600s fps

Yes, the 265 TTSX would need a long throat and single loading in a Ruger action to reach 2650fps.

My compromise is to use the 225 TTSX. It has a BC of .514, can be pushed to 2800-2850fps, and will hold together on a large a imal up close.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
He shoots PRS style matches. With his custom 6.5 Creedmoor. Bartlien 5R . And he shoots 3gun matches.
My 6.5 is still printing 1/2 moa and smaller and it hasn't been cleaned in a long time. Hundreds of rounds ago.
Tibarasaurus Rex has a good you tube vid on barrel cleaning on his Sniper 101 series.
I'm not the only guy that advocates reduced barrel cleaning.
I'm curious what kind of match allows enough time to clean the bore between shots . I believe IBS allows enough time between strings of fire to swab the barrel out. I know in PRS they are too busy running and climbing ect to do any cleaning.
I'm not interested in arguing about this. You want to scrub out your barrel every time you turn around , fine by me .

I used to shoot IPSC, IDPA and a few 3 gun matches. I only cleaned my gun when the slide won't go forward into battery anymore! Then out came the spray in solvent and with a few racks of the slide I was good to go again. This included practicing with an average of 1000 rounds a month.

Now my hunting rifles I treat much differently. They get cleaned after every use. Modern ammo doesn't create corrosion but it doesn't prevent it either. I do sight in with the first shot out of a clean barrel however. That's the one that counts. If it's a multi animal hunt I don't bother cleaning after that first shot but I do keep the the muzzle taped all the time. I just never took much heed about that fouled barrel stuff. I guess everybody is different and if it works more power to you.

I think it mostly depends on the barrel . Some barrels like to be really clean. Some prefer to be left alone and just be shot for a while. I dont know why some people get on a bizarre rant about someone elses barrel being a sewer pipe ect. Personally, I could give a rip if the barrel on my rifle is an inexpensive factory barrel or an expensive Custom hand lapped, air guaged ect . As long as it shoots the way I want it to. If it takes a few hundred rounds to get it seasoned properly, thats fine by me. Frankly. If I had a barrel that shot in the .2s needed to be cleaned every 40 rounds or it opened up to 1moa or larger groups. I would consider that barrel a poj. Compared to a consistent 1/2 moa barrel that stayed 1/2 moa for hundreds of rounds with no maintenance.

Ive had no trouble getting 2800 FPS with a 250 gr. bullet or 2919 FPS with a 225 gr. bullet. in my ,338 (26" or 24") These are loads I worked up for my guns only, but I have seen the same loads in several reloading manuals. Its the loads Ive used for years with Nosler partitions and Accubonds...I also shoot the 210 Nosler at 3005 FPS; used that load for years, but Ive about settled on the 225 Accubond for elk and such..That said some recent testing I did showed the 250 gr. Spt. Sierra or Nosler shot damn near as flat out to 400 yards just about 2 inches lower than the 210 or 225, especially the Sierra BTSP, as best I could tell, man that's a flat shooting dude, and amounted to about a 5 or six inch group with all loads tested, and that Sierra a good killer btw. I expect that big Sierra will pass the others up when you get out to 600 or more yards, but I'll never know, wouldn't even think of shooting at a grand animal like and elk at that range, it has to be out of my skill range. The trouble is I probably wouldn't miss if I had a good rest and a range finder, but likely I would be hitting around the edges, break a damn leg or gut shoot the poor bastard, and that, my friends, upsets the hell out of me. Also in the field, one does not shoot as well as at the bench rest with measured yardage..400 yards is max IMO and only with a good solid rest and a standing animal.

Ray,

I appreciate your perspective, especially an elk hunter in his eighties. Most of the time we are in agreement, sometimes quibble or two of difference. Here, I'll let you have your Sierras. 30+ years ago they used to pull themselves apart in Africa. If I am going to shoot lead, I prefer the backup of the Partition up close. The Sierras can be left for the over-400 shot.

On a 338WM sending a 250 grain bullet at 2800fps, I need to ask if this was with all of your 338's or did it need a long throat? 250gn at 2800 is entering the 375 range at 4350ftlbs. A great little cartridge, whether 4000 or 4350 ftlbs.

A long throat and a 3.6" length magazine perhaps???