I would like to build two loads with two different weight bullets for one rifle.

I am posting this in the Medium Rifles where I expect to get the most experienced feedback on such a project, even though the rifle will be a .375Ruger Ruger Alaskan Hawkeye.

My situation is a little different from many on the AR forum. I only get limited times during the year when I can do any load testing, so I try to plan ahead so as to make the most of the little range time that I get.

The rifle:
Ruger Alaskan Hawkeye, 20-inch stainless barrel.

The goal:
1. One load will be a 200-grain GSC HV bullet with a target velocity of 2900-3000fps. It will be the bread-and-butter bullet for my wife. It is her rifle, and a lefty. She doesn't like the idea of shooting at anything over 300 yards.

2. The second load will be a heavier bullet, perhaps at the same velocity or close to it.
I would like the second load to produce the same point of impact at 100 yards, or perhaps be within an inch of the point of impact of the first load.

First choices for the heavier bullet will be the 235grain CEB Extended Raptor or the 250grain TTSX.

Some questions and/or assumptions:

If the muzzle velocity is similar can I expect similar points of impact at 100 yards?

Related to the first question, if powders are different but muzzle velocities are within 50fps will similar POI be expected?

Of course, if there is no correlation between muzzle speeds and points of impact in the rifle, then arm-chair planning will be of no help.

What kind of experience do forum members have, say with setting up a 338WM or 300WM or 375H&H or 7mRM or 308 or 30-06 to same points of impact for two different weight bullets? Surely a few have done this for their junior hunters, if not themelves for two different hunting circumstances.

Why the two loads? My wife is OK with 338WM recoil and that seems a reasonable all-around level. However, if Husband were to borrow the gun (me), I would appreciate more power for a potential buffalo, but without fiddling with her scope. Likewise, she herself might enjoy having access to a more powerful load on an occasion where buffalo may be lurking.

Length of pull will remain hers, as well as the scope with its 5-in eye-relief. She likes it:


So--are there any tricks to the trade in developing two loads with two weights for the same rifle and scope setting?

Jarrett often makes 2 loadings for his 300 Jarrett rifles, like a 165gr for Deer and a 200gr for Elk.

Take some paint and mark your turrets for the corresponding loads. Maybe blue for the 250 TTSX and red for the CEB. If I'm not mistaken you put a Nikon on her rifle and that scope should have no problem keeping the zero for each load when the crosshairs have been moved.

I've got a 25-06 that shoots Factory 85 & 115 Silvertip to a point of impact less than an 1" apart. With the 115s being the higher.

Can't predict POI with a given rifle with disparate loads. Barrel harmonics and all the rest when it goes "bang" determine that. You can predict that radically different bullets, loads will have different POI but not how much. Elevation is somewhat predictable with speed at 100 but not windage. that is where the bullet is released by the barrel / where the barrel is at when it does it. The only rifle I ever had that shot relative same POI with almost everything was a standard 18" barreled 7mm-08 in the 788 Remington. Action and barrel were both very stout. Your mileage may vary by rifle.
My opinion is that the load you have chosen for her, (One load will be a 200-grain GSC HV bullet with a target velocity of 2900-3000fps. It will be the bread-and-butter bullet for my wife. It is her rifle, and a lefty. She doesn't like the idea of shooting at anything over 300 yards.) would work just as well for you should you hit what should be hit when you shoot game.
Good Luck!

+
And if not should you want a heavier bullet / load, marking the dials or just counting clicks works too.
I use one gun, two scopes for quick change cast versus full power Jacket bullets in one 30-06 of mine. That works fine too. Just change scopes, loads and go shooting.

If an extra scope fits in the budget, I think that will be the simplest route to go. I've owned several Rugers through the years and have never had any issues returning to zero after removing their scopes thanks to Ruger's integral scope mounting system. Most of my experience has been with standard issue Ruger rings, and while they have worked well, there are several choices for quick detach rings that should be even better( well, faster anyway ).

That sounds like a lot of recoil! Ugh!

friar

I have a rifle/swap barrel for just about all the major calibers and case sizes so if I want a heavier bullet I just go up one cal, pretty much...some very good scopes and some dogs and I've swap the good scopes around sometimes depending what I hunt. With a laser sighter it's easy to get back on target. I only center and zero when I have settled on a load and adjust for drop.

I do have a few that I have developed 2-3 loads for...my 25-06's always had 3-6 loads...a 75 gr, 100 gr, and 115-120 gr and BT/Part/AB. A few of my large cased 22 and 6mm have at least 2...one for sage ratz and one for coyote/deer/antelope, etc...

For all those rifles I sight in on a middle weight bullet usually then zeroed out my scope knobs then sighted in the other loads and noted the adjustments on the ammo box and on a stick-it stuck on the rifle stock, clear taped over.

As long as the scope didn't break or any of the components didn't change perceptibly, I could take game out to well past 400 yds without having to do anything but adjust the scope to the settings for the bullet/velocity.

This bit of lore was imparted to me by the first gunsmith I worked(floor sweeper) for a LONG time ago and it always seemed reasonable and worked.

At this point, tho', I don't see much need for any more than two weights...one light weight "varmint" and one hunting weight, you pick your favorite weight...then again...I don't see the actual need for lighter weight bullet in a hunting rifle as the normal hunting weight will work just as well for anything you shoot and also keep things SIMPLE.

You only need to learn the characteristics/drop/time of flight/recoil/etc., for one bullet and saves on loading components.

I like to shoot and experiment so I'm always mucking about with the newest and latest bullets, but I'm also CHEAP so cup and core bullets are my goto slugs...and the premo's get shot up in testing.

The ONLY WAY TO DETERMINE THE POI of a bullet you like is to shoot it at the velocity you like...center the scope and zero out the knobs...THEN shoot the same bullet at different velos and do the same with any other bullets and compare...and KEEP GOOD NOTES. There's NO WAY to predetermine POI.

A long time ago I read/was told the heavier bullets always shot higher...that was so much manure I found out after testing that proposition myself...SOMETIMES it did happen but most times it didn't.

You also have to target again ANY CHANGES IN COMPONENTS.

If you don't believe this check out the reloading section here on AR...you can see the velocity changes with component changes AND group size changes and I can PERSONALLY GARANTEE a change in primers alone can change POI and group sizes by a bunch. A long story short with a 22-250, 53 gr Horn's, 4 different primers, POI changed 4" l/r - h/l and from a bug hole .1" to 1 1/4" , 5 shot groups...similar changes in very accurate 223 and 308.

I have a 24" 375 Ruger and a 20" 375 H&H among the horde, so I use Fed 215 primers and powders that have a fill ratio of 85 to 100+% and so far 270 gr Hornady Spritzers and RN's are all I've ran in the Ruger with very good results and the same plus 225 SP and 300 RN's in the H&H. Midway had a sale on 270 RN's so guess what I will be shooting for a long time.

A lot also depends on the level of accuracy you/your wife can achieve...sometimes component changes can't be seen due to shooting skills and the level of accuracy needed for the game you are hunting.

Sometimes if you pick just one bullet to use you might not hit that "perfect" load and have to settle on a specific COAl/powder and primer combo. I have a 338-06 that shoots 5 - 220 or 225 gr Horn SP at ~2850/2750 fs into a quarter at 125 yds but won't keep a 225-250 gr Nosler or any other brand in less than 2"...I want to shoot 250-270 gr bullets but I have to settle for less accuracy to achieve that...but that's OK for the larger game and I save the 200/225's for T-Rex sageratasauruses.

Good luck...you have an excellent rifle and caliber and your choice of bullet can't be faulted.

Thank you for the replies. It sounds like we will need to schedule several sessions at a range and do a bit of shooting. :-)

On barrel harmonics I had been wondering if achieving similar muzzle velocity would make a similar POI more probable. Apparently that may be wishful thinking.

You cant expect to have the same point of impact if you and your wife take the recoil different. Are you both LH?

In my experience there's just no way to tell without putting the rifle and load on paper. Sometimes we get lucky....mostly we don't and have to work for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
...
My opinion is that the load you have chosen for her, (One load will be a 200-grain GSC HV bullet with a target velocity of 2900-3000fps. It will be the bread-and-butter bullet for my wife. It is her rifle, and a lefty. She doesn't like the idea of shooting at anything over 300 yards.) would work just as well for you should you hit what should be hit when you shoot game.
Good Luck!

yes, I expect that load, 200gnGSC .375" at 2950+/-, to take impala and hartebeest without breaking a sweat. It should work on buffalo with nice broadside shots, but I would prefer something heavier for that beast that always "looks at you like you owe him money." And if that 200 grain bullet is more accurate down at 2800-2900 my wife would be happy there as well. GSC bullets, of course, can be loaded hotter in most calibres because of the driving bands. If it were up to me, I would look for loads in the 4500-5000ftlb range, but it is not fair for me to ask my wife to shoot HER rifle with my "druthers".

quote:

Originally posted by Nordic2:
You cant expect to have the same point of impact if you and your wife take the recoil different. Are you both LH?

I'm a righty. Here is my wife holding my look alike 500AccRel with her lefty 375Ruger on the bench and a trusty 416 Rigby CZ in the background.

Just load each weight and try them they may shoot close together as is.

When you develope your loads, do them all at the same time and just note where the POI is with the various loads as you go up through the scale. You might get lucky, or just happen to notice that "load B, 2 grains down from max" happens to shoot to the same POI as what you are sighted in for does. I've got fair bit of use out of that when testing bullets on culls. Its nice to know what you can use interchangely, and to how far away.

There are times that not shooting to the same POI is an advantage. It doesn't hurt my feeling much if a 300 solid happens to hit a couple inches or so lower than a 270 grain soft in a .375. It works out to the heavier bullet being sighted for 100 yards when the rifle is sighted for 200 with the lighter bullet.

Sometimes you get lucky. I got a .300 WSM awhile ago, and quickly found a 180 grain Ballistic tip load for it that works quite well out to 500. Never being much to leave well enough alone, I loaded up some 165 Ballistic Tips just to see if they would be better or worse. They landed in the same group at 100, so I took them out farther using the B&C reticle. 2, 3 and 400 had them grouping together on the plates. When I got to 510 yards and just aiming with the posts the 165s grouped 4 inches above the 180s, which could be compensated by dropping a grain or so on the 165 load, or splitting the difference on the sight setting. At the present time I have no particular use for a rifle that shoots 165 and 180s together from zero to 500, but if I dream one up I'm ready. The slightly higher velocity of the lighter bullet compensated for the higher BC of the heavy bullet.

LH or RH doesn't matter...what MIGHT matter is what happens when you shoot vs when your wife shoots and...again...that is only identified by SHOOTTING TARGETS...and may or may not actually happen to any large extent.

MOST of the time a rifle will shoot differently off the bench, locked down or free recoil or off hand, off bipods, standing, etc.,...it all depends and is ONLY determined by actual shooting and is rifle specific but MAY transfer to other rifles, ISN'T cast in stone and some do and some don't...Sorry.

I have rifles that only seem to shoot to my specific accuracy level for that cartridge with the receiver/barrel locked in am aluminum barrel vice screwed down to my bench. Take it out and put it into a stock and the group opens up a bit...more likely MY tremors than anything else but I wouldn't have learned that without a bunch of shooting.


EVERYONE seems to want a quick and dirty solution to everything...doesn't matter what.

The simple solution to ALL your questions pertaining to these questions is targeting as been alluded to.

ASK the question, set up a target and answer it directly...EMPIRICALLY...ACTUALLY for YOUR rifle/conditions...and it's OK to use what others have found out to see if it works in YOUR rifles as well...I've been doing that for umpteen years and you'd be surprised what answers you get.

It would be nice if it were day and night, black or white, left or right, man or woman...but it ain't gonna happen that way.

Besides...look at all the fun your having getting used to you're rifles characteristics...and a bit of breaking in never hurts in the long run...a new rifle never shoots as well as one with a few miles on it.

Keep us posted...I haven't used any GSC bullets...Barnes yes and most other primo bullets...but I'm WAY TO CHEAP for those beauties, but if I thought they would work for some particular game I wouldn't hesitate to buy and test them.

Luck

THanks Nonagonagin

quote:

Besides...look at all the fun your having getting used to you're rifles characteristics...and a bit of breaking in never hurts in the long run...a new rifle never shoots as well as one with a few miles on it.

I enjoy the process, make no mistake. It's just that this year I don't expect much opportunity to be with the rifles at a range, so I was hoping to try out a short cut, when the opportunity arises. So this process may take a couple of years in my circumstances.

Isn't this similiar, in theory at least, to Remington's line of "Power Level" ammunition. Essentially three round in one gun with varied bullet weight and propellant charge to give a point of impact change of less than 2 inches at 200 yds.

Samo-samo...just like the 75% rule...this has been done by many over the years...by accident or by design...the theory is functional...but again it takes bench/target time to verify.

You can take lessons from the benchrest crowd, the long distance crowd and the varminters...pretty much all of them use similar techniques to achieve the level of accuracy needed to win matches or take out small, long ways away targets.

Hornady/Rem/Win all have upset my apple cart several time by changing the ogive lengths on me on my favorite bullets...one of the reasons I measure everything BEFORE I go to shooting.

One box of 7mm 120 gr Horn's had THREE DIFFERENT ogive lengths in one box and two in another...same run number.

This bullet was VERY accurate in two 7-08's with the SAME load/seating etc...interchangeable between a slightly tricked out Sav SA, 26" bbl and a 17" Shilen bbl XP-100 pistol.

Went out one day with both shooters after sage ratz and couldn't hit the ground...after 5 straight misses with both AT 50-300 yds, I pulled up stakes and went home to find out WHY.

The one box must have been a mixture of QC adjustments.

I shoot a lot of Nosler seconds being fairly close to them...all I do is measure the ogives and sort them and keep the outliers for barrel break in and velo testing. It doesn't take much to go from a bugholer to a shotgun pattern, so to speak.

All this mucking about isn't needed it you only need minute-of-elk accuracy, but I like accurate rifles so for me it is de rigueur to measure the HE** out of EVERYTHING.

I use 400, 600 grits and Flitz polish on a cleaning patch wrapped around a nylon brush to initially polish a new barrel if it hasn't been polished by the maker. Just a few, maybe a dozen or so with the 400 just to knock off the bark, then maybe 50 with the 600, then a couple hundred with the Flitz...you can feel the barrel smoothing out and do the rest of the break-in while I'm load testing.

This works for me and has done so over many cheap barrels...nothing very scientific about it, HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL and can destroy the accuracy if taken to extremes...as you are actually WEARING OUT THE BARREL.

Luck

Many rifles will shoot almost all their loads to the same POI, but you must try them because it ain't written in stone..

All my old guns will do that, that's why they are my old guns, I keep the ones that do that..

I don't know why but more guns do that today then they did yesteryear?? perhaps better barrels today??

My new Ruger International 30-06 ss and wood will shoot 125s, 150s and 180s to the same POI more or less, The 180s are dead on at 100, the 150s are one inch high and the 125s are 3 inches high an all in a vertical line, that's good enough for me. My Ruger African does the same with 210s and 300s with the 210 about two higher.

My 9.3x62, 6x45, 222, my old Ruger 77 30-06, and my totally worn out 99 Savage in .308 shoot everything to the same POI. The old 99 shot a 2.77 inch group with 10 different loads and bullet weights. It took me many years to put a battery of those kind of guns together, Now I bet I can do it in a year or two. The last two new Rugers I bought did it right out of the box.

Just go out to the range and try them, most of the time you will be surprised. If they don't pick your favorite load then work on another load that will come within 3 inches vertical.

Too much is made of this today, and many folks are still reading Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith and in there day it was unusual. Today I'd say ya got a good chance of success to one degree or another.

Work up your load for the heavier bullet and then use that powder charge with the lighter one, often they will hit near the same POI.

Hi 416 Tanzan,
I think everyone has steered you in the right direction regarding coinciding POI.

What I'd really like to know is what scope your wife is using that has 5" of eye relief, please?

The scope is a Nikon Inline 3-9 power, 40mm objective. This is sometimes listed as a muzzleloader scope on the hunting-store websites.
Light transmission is rated at 92% which is excellent.
The Nikon scopes are tough as nails for the big bores.

the mounting length is 4.75", which can sometimes require special rings. Her rifle has a back-extended front ring. My 500 Nyati is the same, both hers and mine are Ruger Hawkeye actions. I haven't tried to see if a partially fit CZ front ring would work on CZ actions since I have an offset one-piece CZ mount (bought in Czechia) for a CZ in Tanzania that handles a 1.65-5 power Nikon scope (SLughunter "shotgun" model, same 5" eye-relief) for a 416Rigby.