How many of you do this or have an urge to do so?

I think it would be neat to do a little hunting with old ammo, and even better an older rifle and scope etc from the time period.
Lets say at least 50 years old, the scope also. Originals only, no remakes

I probably wouldn't do something like this on a once in a liftime tag but say deer or pigs etc

I'd prefer drinking fifty year-old Cognac to shooting fifty year-old ammunition. However, either ages gracefully, and provided it has been stored properly will perform as desired.

I have on my bucket list to kill a deer with my wife's grandfather's Model 14 .25 Remington sighted through its period Lyman Alaskan 2.5X dot reticle scope. However, I'll probably use ammunition I built for it myself a few years ago.

Every few years I'll go out and fire a round of steel cased .45 ACP from a box that my father brought back from WW-II. I've never fired it at anything alive, but perhaps someday it and an unwanted raccoon or polecat will make acquaintences.

My first deer was killed with an all original 30-40Krag. The ammo was Factory loads but then that was in 1970 so now the ammo would be old.

I think it would be pretty cool to do so.

Almost 30 years ago when my gradfather passed, my father and I inherited all his guns. With them came a bunch of ammo. Stuff that I had never heard of at the time: Peters, UMC & Kleen Bore are a few of the ones I can remember.

Foolishly, I blasted away at nothing with it and its all gone.

I still have a pretty decent stash of 1917 .303 ball over Cordite that is very reliable in ignition and power. I thought at one time it would be fun to swap the ball projectiles with hunting bullets but so far a nice period 303 sporting rifle has alluded me. Likewise I have a nice Husky pre-war 6.5 x 55 Model 46 with a period Kahles scope in claw mounts but alas, old 6.5 Swede hunting ammo might as well be made of unobtanium.

I killed my first deer in 1966 with a 8mm Mauser from Montgomery Wards useing WWII surplus ammo.

Most all my hunting rigs are 50-100 years old. But I use modern handloads for hunting. Old ammo is fine for practice, plinking, targets, etc. I do use shot shells from the 1950s for bird hunting that still work fine but I have had enough old rifle ammo misfire or hangfire that I don't want to risk it on a trophy.

I have a Win Model 70 in 30-06 that was my grandfathers. It has with it a box of 220 grain round nose with 5 shots missing. The only rounds fired in the gun. My grandmother bought it for him in 52. I took the gun on a pig hunt in Texas and loaded it from "the box". I fired one round to make sure it was sighted in, irons. I had no pig come by but I took grandpa’s gun hunting with his ammo.

Mark

I still have a few set back rounds of '42 DM .30-06 ammo that will fire quite well. It's amusing to me that so many people think anything older than themselves is 'vintage' and, therefore, too old to function properly.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Most all my hunting rigs are 50-100 years old. But I use modern handloads for hunting. Old ammo is fine for practice, plinking, targets, etc. I do use shot shells from the 1950s for bird hunting that still work fine but I have had enough old rifle ammo misfire or hangfire that I don't want to risk it on a trophy.

Im not talking about trophy hunting. Im just talking about backyard deer or coyote, or cow elk etc.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by adamhunter:
I think it would be pretty cool to do so.

Almost 30 years ago when my gradfather passed, my father and I inherited all his guns. With them came a bunch of ammo. Stuff that I had never heard of at the time: Peters, UMC & Kleen Bore are a few of the ones I can remember.

Foolishly, I blasted away at nothing with it and its all gone.[/QUOTI feel ya! I did the same thing with my grandfather's Model 8 in 30 Rem. Must of burned through a dozens boxes of Remington Kleen Bore ammo poking holes in the dirt.

quote:

How many of you do this or have an urge to do so?

I think it would be neat to do a little hunting with old ammo, and even better an older rifle and scope etc from the time period.
Lets say at least 50 years old, the scope also. Originals only, no remakes

Sounds good until you find out that gunpowder has a shelf life and as it gets old, the burn rate becomes unpredictable.

As gunpowder ages the grain deteriorates and deteriorates unevenly. Double based powders have nitroglycerine migration in the grain. The stuff wicks its way to the surface, and even though the total energy content of the nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine mix has reduced in time, due to the reduction-oxidation of nitrocellulose, the surface is now rich with NG and that can, has, and will cause pressure spikes.

Single based powder, nitrocellulose only, blowups are due to burn rate instability. The pressure curve is not smooth and given some bad luck, your firearm can turn out like these.

My advice, leave the old ammunition at home.



Garand Blowup with WWII ball

http://www.thehighroad.org/sho...7870113&postcount=13

quote:

I have an old shooting buddy who some years ago was shooting some WWII ball (don’t know whose) but his M-1 was disassembled in a rather rapid fashion. He was lucky only his pride was hurt. He said he took a round apart and found rust looking dust along with the powder. Bad powder. Just sayin…..The op rod can be rebuilt which might be a good way to go. Op Rods are getting harder to find and when you find one a premium price is required so it seems. Garands require grease. I’m not sure if you are aware of this. If you are, please no offence taken.

Garand Blowup with old US ammunition.

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088

quote:

There was a thread on another forum titeled “What’s in your ammo can” and many guys had old surpluss ammo so I told this story. Ty (arizonaguide) asked that I come put it here also so here it is boys, draw your own conclutions.

Back in the mid 80s my Dad and a bunch of us went shooting in Arizona. Dad had a couple thousand rounds of WWII surplus .30M1 (30-06) ammo that looked great on the outside cut his M1 in half in his hands. He was kneeling with elbow on knee when the first round of this ammo went BOOM! We were all pelted with sand and M1 shrapnel.

When the dust cleared Dad was rolling around on his back with buttstock in one hand, for stock in the other, barrel and receiver hanging by the sling around his arm trying to yell “mortar” thinking he was back on Okinawa in battle. The blast had removed his ear muffs, hat, glasses, and broke the headlight in my truck 15 feet away but Dad was only shook up and scratched a bit once he got his wits back. It sheared off the bolt lugs, blew open the receiver front ring, pushed all the guts out the bottom of the magazine, and turned the middle of the stock to splinters.

After a couple hours of picking up M1 shrapnel we headed to the loading bench and started pulling bullets. Some of the powder was fine, some was stuck together in clumps, and some had to be dug out with a stick. It didn’t smell and was not dusty like powder usuley is when it’s gone bad. Put it in a pie tin and light it and it seemed a tad fast but not so you would think it could do that, wasent like lighting a pistol powder even. He had 2000 rounds of this stuff and nun of us were in any mood to play with it much after what we watched so it all went onto a very entertaining desert bon fire. I got the M1 splinters when Dad died last year and will post pix here below for your parousal and entertainment.

Anyway, I no longer play with any ammo I am not 100% sure has always been stored properly . . . cheap shooting ain’t worth the risk to me anymore! I still buy surpluss if the price in right but I unload and reload it with powder I am sure of or just use the brass.

She was a good shooting servasable Winchester M1 before this.

I have been using ammo that my Grandfather bought in the late 50's and early 60's in his old guns for years--

no problems and lots of dead animals.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:

quote:

How many of you do this or have an urge to do so?

I think it would be neat to do a little hunting with old ammo, and even better an older rifle and scope etc from the time period.
Lets say at least 50 years old, the scope also. Originals only, no remakes

Sounds good until you find out that gunpowder has a shelf life and as it gets old, the burn rate becomes unpredictable.

As gunpowder ages the grain deteriorates and deteriorates unevenly. Double based powders have nitroglycerine migration in the grain. The stuff wicks its way to the surface, and even though the total energy content of the nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine mix has reduced in time, due to the reduction-oxidation of nitrocellulose, the surface is now rich with NG and that can, has, and will cause pressure spikes.

Single based powder, nitrocellulose only, blowups are due to burn rate instability. The pressure curve is not smooth and given some bad luck, your firearm can turn out like these.

My advice, leave the old ammunition at home.



Garand Blowup with WWII ball

http://www.thehighroad.org/sho...7870113&postcount=13

quote:

I have an old shooting buddy who some years ago was shooting some WWII ball (don’t know whose) but his M-1 was disassembled in a rather rapid fashion. He was lucky only his pride was hurt. He said he took a round apart and found rust looking dust along with the powder. Bad powder. Just sayin…..The op rod can be rebuilt which might be a good way to go. Op Rods are getting harder to find and when you find one a premium price is required so it seems. Garands require grease. I’m not sure if you are aware of this. If you are, please no offence taken.

Garand Blowup with old US ammunition.

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088

quote:

There was a thread on another forum titeled “What’s in your ammo can” and many guys had old surpluss ammo so I told this story. Ty (arizonaguide) asked that I come put it here also so here it is boys, draw your own conclutions.

Back in the mid 80s my Dad and a bunch of us went shooting in Arizona. Dad had a couple thousand rounds of WWII surplus .30M1 (30-06) ammo that looked great on the outside cut his M1 in half in his hands. He was kneeling with elbow on knee when the first round of this ammo went BOOM! We were all pelted with sand and M1 shrapnel.

When the dust cleared Dad was rolling around on his back with buttstock in one hand, for stock in the other, barrel and receiver hanging by the sling around his arm trying to yell “mortar” thinking he was back on Okinawa in battle. The blast had removed his ear muffs, hat, glasses, and broke the headlight in my truck 15 feet away but Dad was only shook up and scratched a bit once he got his wits back. It sheared off the bolt lugs, blew open the receiver front ring, pushed all the guts out the bottom of the magazine, and turned the middle of the stock to splinters.

After a couple hours of picking up M1 shrapnel we headed to the loading bench and started pulling bullets. Some of the powder was fine, some was stuck together in clumps, and some had to be dug out with a stick. It didn’t smell and was not dusty like powder usuley is when it’s gone bad. Put it in a pie tin and light it and it seemed a tad fast but not so you would think it could do that, wasent like lighting a pistol powder even. He had 2000 rounds of this stuff and nun of us were in any mood to play with it much after what we watched so it all went onto a very entertaining desert bon fire. I got the M1 splinters when Dad died last year and will post pix here below for your parousal and entertainment.

Anyway, I no longer play with any ammo I am not 100% sure has always been stored properly . . . cheap shooting ain’t worth the risk to me anymore! I still buy surpluss if the price in right but I unload and reload it with powder I am sure of or just use the brass.

She was a good shooting servasable Winchester M1 before this.

That looks like it could have been painful

There are many reasons not to use "vintage" ammo

- Old ammunition may have corrosive primers. If you shoot this and do not thoroughly clean the bore and, if applicable, gas system then you can ruin your rifle in little time. In vintage times it was common to clean the bore with boiling water. That's what those little funnels that you find in the vintage cases were used for.

- Corrossion on cases and/or bullets. Split and broken cases, poor fit in a chamber, and bullets that no longer fit the bore can cause a variety of troubles.

- Lead/antimony can harden over time.

- Powders break down over time. Shot to shot velocities will vary, sometimes greatly. The possibility of having a bullet get stuck in the barrel is real. Fire a shot behind that and the results can be catastrophic. The chance of having a cartridge detonate is remote but cannot be ruled out.

- Possibility of shooting unknown bullets. Bullet markings/coloring may be worn off or corroded over. Are you sure that cartidge you got in an old pile of mixed military rounds isn't incendiary, armor piercing, or explosive?

quote:

Shot to shot velocities will vary, sometimes greatly

I agree with that comment.

I recently ran a primer test in 30-06. I had purchased Wolf and Tula7.62 primers and I wanted to see how they compared. Tula 7.62 were advertized to be the same insensitivity as CCI #34’s, which are a mil spec primer.

For a data point, I shot original White Box LC Match 30-06, 1967 Headstamp.

That ammunition was wonderful in its day, but now the powder is 45 years old, at the end of a reasonable shelf life for a single base powder.

My loads, with the same military bullets and 90’s IMR 4895, the extreme velocity spreads are a lot less.

Powder does not get better with age.

A “rule of thumb” given to me by an insensitive munitions expert, is that the lifetime of single based propellants is 45 years and double based 20 years. Of course everyone has gunpowders older than that, but you do not chemical test your gunpowders for stabilizer content, which the military does, to determine if there is 20% stabilizer left.


If you are more than mildly interested in powder tests, go to dodiss
https://assist.dla.mil/quicksearch/ and look for Mil STD 286.

Mil Std 286 MILITARY STANDARD PROPELLANTS, SOLID: SAMPLING, EXAMINATION AND TESTING

30-06 Primer Test


Colombian Mauser Match 26” 1:10 Wilson barrel.

174 FMJBT White Box 1968 NM M72, Headstamp LC67 match, box velocity 2640 fps

14 Nov 2011 T = 68 °F

Ave Vel = 2698
Std Dev = 51
ES = 117
High = 2771
Low = 2654
N = 5

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI #34 OAL 3.30

14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel = 2645
Std Dev = 12
ES = 42
High = 2671
Low = 2629
N = 10
Very good group

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Tula 7.62 lot 1-10 primers OAL 3.30

14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel = 2665
Std Dev = 9
ES = 28
High = 2677
Low = 2649
N = 10
Excellent Group

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Wolf NCLR lot 18-09 OAL 3.30

14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel = 2656
Std Dev = 15
ES = 36
High = 2677
Low = 2641
N = 9


174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Fed 210S OAL 3.30

14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel = 2656
Std Dev = 13
ES = 34
High = 2674
Low = 2640
N = 10


174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM WLR (Nickle) OAL 3.30

14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel = 2665
Std Dev = 18
ES = 60
High = 2696
Low = 2636
N = 10
Excellent group

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI200 OAL 3.30

14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel = 2680
Std Dev = 14
ES = 56
High = 2712
Low = 2656
N = 10
V. Good group




M1 Garand BMR Receiver Douglas Barrel 1:10 twist



174 FMJBT White Box 1968 NM M72, Headstamp LC67 match, box velocity 2640 fps

14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel = 2592
Std Dev = 28
ES = 103
High = 2647
Low = 2544
N = 10


174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI #34 OAL 3.30

14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel = 2632
Std Dev = 20
ES = 60
High = 2671
Low = 2611
N = 10

174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Tula 7.62 lot 1-10 primers OAL 3.30

14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel = 2582
Std Dev = 15
ES = 49
High = 2602
Low = 2553
N = 10
excellent group


174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM Wolf NCLR lot 18-09 OAL 3.30

14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel = 2607
Std Dev = 17
ES = 57
High = 2642
Low = 2585
N = 10


174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM WLR (Nickle) OAL 3.30

14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel = 2650
Std Dev = 19
ES = 68
High = 2688
Low = 2620
N = 10
Very good group


174 FMJBT 47.0 IMR 4895 Lot L7889 thrown LC62NM CCI200 OAL 3.30

14 Nov 2011 T = 74 °F

Ave Vel = 2599
Std Dev = 22
ES = 75
High = 2637
Low = 2562
N = 10
Very good group

The ammo was modern handloads that a friend helped me put together using .357 Magnum brass that had the rim turned down about 20 thousandnths and the extractor groove opened up a little, but I have killed a couple of deer a coyote and a javelina with a 1907 .351 Win. S.L. that was built in 1923.

The second deer I ever killed was with early 1900s Remington 45-70 loads in my Marlin. First shot was a dud and had to shoot it again. I paid $5 for that ammo in 1976 and all but one round fired out of the box. I shot thousands of 30-06 and 8mm Mauser of WWI vintage. Never had a blow up but had a few hang fires and duds. I have shot many different calibers of old Kynoch cordite loads in my doubles and all have fired and velocities were right on the mark. Had an old Remington 348 Winchester round burn a hole through the side of the case and blew a hole in the chamber like a cutting torch.
So if you are going to shoot old ammo just about anything can happen.

Sam

quote:

Had an old Remington 348 Winchester round burn a hole through the side of the case and blew a hole in the chamber like a cutting torch.
So if you are going to shoot old ammo just about anything can happen.

When gunpowder deteriorates it releases NOx. In the presence of water NOx will produce NO2, nitric acid gas. That does create pits in brass cases. It is possible that your 348 case was weakened, weakened in a spot, due to nitric acid gas coming out of the powder.

I disassembled WW2 surplus 30-06, and these are the pulled bullets. See the nice green spots, that is corrosion from powder outgassing. Wish I kept the cases as some of them were really pitted internally.

A machine gunner fried of mine said he had blown the top cover off his machine gun twice with 50's Yugo 8mm surplus.

Slamfire,

I'm not sure what caused the 348 case to fail. It wasn't corroded and the hole was right at the web in front of the rim. Could have just been a defect in the case.

Sam

Just this weekend I took the Spr/Krag out. I have 3-4 vintage cardboard top lift boxes of ammo, could be UMC, i'm not sure how old it was but the boxes could pass for new, and some new HSM stuff.

The first 2 rnds of UMC didn't go off and the next one hang fired. That was it for the UMC.

I have some old 300 and 250 Savage ammo that is still good to go.
Could the problem with those rifles be they were military ammo?
Then there is that 25-35 and the 22 Hi-power ammo I have been saving for a rifle someday.

I shudder when I think of all the military stuff I fired away as a kid in the late 60's-early 70's, in a Krag and an '03. I'm talking sealed boxes of Krag Gallery ammo, and Ball, all with 1890's and early 00's headstamps. In the '03 I fired off tons of WWI dated ammo, and 20's-30's National Match and Palma match ammo, again all out of sealed boxes. I knew enough even then about mercuric and corrosive primers to thoroughly clean afterwards, and never experienced bore deterioration as a result. But my oh my, I wish I had that stuff back so I could sell it to collectors and probably retire!

When you use vintage ammunition your are increasing your risk of something bad going happening.

I don’t know why people think old ammunition is fine, and yet, everyone understands not to use old fuel in their vehicle.

I learned about gunpowder aging from and Naval Insensitive Munitions expert. Someone who had written the after accident reports investigating munitions explosions in Naval Bases. We googled one incident that he had personally authored the report, and there is absolutely nothing in the public domain.

The military gets rid of that old ammunition for good reasons, they have to replace blown guns they have to cover the medical bills, and old gunpowder will self ignite.

Surplus ammunition is sold to the American public without anyone understanding that it is not risk free.

This powder is from a FA 11-1898 30-40 Krag cartridge.





I sent the IM expert the link with the Garand blowup with WW2 ammunition, http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?p=1344088
and the pictures of my corroded bullets and pulled Krag red powder, and this is what he wrote back:

quote:

Wow

The red color indicates that the stabilizer is depleted and the redox reaction is degrading the nitrate ester. (I assume this is a single base gun propellant, and the nitrate ester is NC.) Please dispose of this powder and ammo supply before it starts to get warm or self-heat (via autocatalytic exothermic reaction). This stuff can be a runaway reaction and spotaneously explode in storage.

The cracked case necks are proof that the outgassing of NOx is occurring. The pressure build-up is evidently enough to fatigue the metal at a high stress location in the cartridge case (@ the neck bend). You should also see a bulge in the cartridge base (where the firing pin would strike b/c there is a circular joint crimp there between the two metals). Please discard this ammo.

The corroded ammo is the same as above (redox reaction gassing NOx) except this stuff actually got wet too. Water provides a medium for corrosive acid reactions to result. Please discard this ammo.

Lessons learned -
(1) Ammo has a finite shelf life
(2) Ammo can be dangerous

That propellant looks like chopped cordite & if that's the case then the colour is exactly the same as when it was loaded.
The one time I saw degraded propellant, rather than being an overall tan like this example, it was the usual graphite grey grains infused with a fine, rust red powder & had a pungent odour akin to smelling salts.

My father fired some "vintage" #2's in a 12 gauge 870 on a goose hunt back in the 1960's. A felt plug or wad of sorts did not quite clear the end of the barrel. Next second fast shot took off the end of that barrel.
Luckily he was not hurt or anyone around him. Those shell were probably manufactured in the 1930's. 870 ended up with a poly choke. I still have that gun but with a new barrel.

quote:

...I sent the IM expert the link with the Garand blowup with WW2 ammunition ... and this is what he wrote back:

quote:

Wow

The red color indicates that the stabilizer is depleted and the redox reaction is degrading the nitrate ester. (I assume this is a single base gun propellant, and the nitrate ester is NC.) Please dispose of this powder and ammo supply before it starts to get warm or self-heat (via autocatalytic exothermic reaction). This stuff can be a runaway reaction and spotaneously explode in storage.

The cracked case necks are proof that the outgassing of NOx is occurring. The pressure build-up is evidently enough to fatigue the metal at a high stress location in the cartridge case (@ the neck bend). You should also see a bulge in the cartridge base (where the firing pin would strike b/c there is a circular joint crimp there between the two metals). Please discard this ammo.

The corroded ammo is the same as above (redox reaction gassing NOx) except this stuff actually got wet too. Water provides a medium for corrosive acid reactions to result. Please discard this ammo.

Lessons learned -
(1) Ammo has a finite shelf life
(2) Ammo can be dangerous

Slamfire, he is using words he does not understand, or misusung words he does understand.

NOx is a term used for atmospheric pollution, to describe the collection of several different oxides of nitrogen. "NOx" does not convert to NO2 in the presence of water. instead, NO2 gas, dissolved in water, creates nitric acid. but where does the water in the sealed cartidge come from?

further, he is flatly wrong about the cracked case necks being from pressure-induced fatigue. pressure does not fatigue brass. it might crack brittle brass, but if that was the case, the bullet would have moved. the krag ammo not having sealed necks is even more suspect, as the pressure woild have escaped the non-gas-tight bullet/neck joint.

I have and shoot both turkish and bulgarian ammo with cracked necks, and none of it misbehaves. the necks are cracked due to metallurgy, not fatigue, which is not caused by steady and gradual pressure in the first place.

his runaway exothermic reaction scenario is nonsense. smokeless ammo does not spontaneously go off.

Oddbod is correct about the appearance of the powder.

you would do well to forget what the IM expert wrote. he might well be an IM expert, but he is making shit up about small arms ammo. he doesn't even know what a primer is called?

quote:

"You should also see a bulge in the cartridge base (where the firing pin would strike...)."

he is out of his element, to say the least.