Send a PM to BBBruce.. he is forum member her who frequents the Political Forum on AR....

He has considerable experience on the subject, both from a field perspective and a legal perspective.. he is an attorney...

he should know all the ins and outs on the subject...

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:

quote:

Originally posted by Steffen-9.3:
what do you guys consider minimum for always stopping a bear at close range?

can you please recommend one for north-american grizzly and one for european brown bear

I think a .338 Win. Mag. loaded with 250-275 grain premium bullets or other cartridge in the same class is sufficient. For close range, a heavily-loaded .45/70 with the 350-grain Speer or tougher bullet will do a great job! The Russians use a .35-caliber round made by necking up the 7.62X54R case for brown bear. I would expect this to perform like a .35 Whelen......

Yup, this is the 9.3 x 53 R MEDVED ( means Bear if I remember correctly)

quote:

Originally posted by Steffen-9.3:
what do you guys consider minimum for always stopping a bear at close range?

Accurate shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by dbltap:
SD Shooter

Great post.

You have reenforced my long held feeling that bears on crack that like to watch TV are the worst kind to run into!

.

+1

Get the largest calible gun you can barely handle and mount a silencer to take recoil and sound down. Cut the barrel to a bare minimum to preserve balance. Mount an Aimpoint or an extremely low-magnification riflescope such as Meopta 1-4, or even better: high iron sights (ghost ring and elevated front sight, to reach over the silencer).

You will pack plenty of punch in a small package, it will perform well on medium ranges also. My 9,3x62 feels like a .243 with hot 286gr loads and sounds even less, and aaaaalmost makes 1MOA with 5 shots. A .458 will probably perform impressively at medium or close range in such a configuration.

Another vote for the biggest caliber you feel comfortable with.
9.3 x 62 would be my starting point. I would probably prefer a 375 H&H, 376 Steyr or 375 Taylor.
A 416 or 458 would fall close to the 'without fail' category, but there are no promises in life.
If your life is on the line, bigger is really better, as long as you can handle it.

Having said that, don't kid yourself. Better the gun you can shoot fast and accurately, than the cannon you miss with because you didn't practice because it beat the shit out of you when you pulled the trigger...

If a 9.3 is what you have, it will do the job, as long as you do your part.
JMHO.

I would think what you shot would be just as if not more important than how big you shot.

Keep in mind for a "bear stopper" to work you have to have it with in grabbing distance at all times. A 577 T-Rex is worthless if it's in the truck because it was too heavy to carry. That's why I suggested the Marlin guide gun in a .450Marlin. If you've ever spent any time at all with one of these things you'll understand how much easier it would be to live with than ANY bolt gun hanging from your shoulder on a regular basis. 18" barrel and slab sided are huge advantages when it comes to carry comfort compared to a 22"-24"barreled bolt rifle. Considering the .45-70 has killed plenty of bears the .450Marlin should only be that much better.

Being a lever action would be a great benefit for 2nd or 3rd shots if needed.

How's that for bench racing

Terry

I was an innocent Deer hunter going on the Bear hunt of a liftime with my brother-in-law who lived in Alaska for two years teaching school and hunting a lot on the side. I had heard of his stopping a charging Brown Bear at 40 yards with a 30-06 using 220 grain Silvertips in factory Winchester ammo. Another buddy took his Bear with three shots from a 7mm remington starting at 200 yards then finishing off the Bear at 7 steps with three shots from a .44 mag pistol (the pistol slugs bearly penetrating the hide and fat). Another buddy taking a huge 11 ft plus Browny with a 30-06 close but with no problems. Another buddy buried up there that was armed with a 30-06 and 220 grain silvertips, he killed the Bear but the Bear killed him. We never knew what happened because both died at the scene, but he always swore the 30-06 was plenty of rifle if you placed the shot well, which he did, but you know the rest of the story. I took my 91/2 ft Brown Bear with the .300 Winny and 200 grain Nosler Partitions at 2900 fps, a one shot kill, but at the shot three more Bears raised their ugly heads to see what the noise was about, necessitating our taking two more Bears, the fourth leaving with gusto. I felt like I had a pea shooter in my hands when everything was said and done. These are my personal experiences with Brown Bears and Rifles. The next time I went in Browny country I was armed with a .340 Weatherby with 250 grain Bullets, and now I use a .358 STA with 270 grain North Fork bullets when there. ----- I also shoot a .416 Remington Model 70 Winchester and a .416 Rigby in #1 Ruger that I reserve for Africa. The reason I don't take them to Alaska is because they are both much heavier built rifles and my STA in Model 70 is much quicker to my shoulder and in thick stuff. Based upon my experiences and those close to me, this is my reasoning for what it is worth. Good shooting.

Great and entertaining post SD Shooter

I've only been to a bear hunt once and have shot no bears. But before I went to that hunt I read lots of literature on the subject to prepare myself. My conclusions were very close to yours.

Bears cardiovascular system is very low pressure, because of this they can still operate after their heart is completely out of the game. Their brain does not run out of oxygen instantly like humans. So they can attack you even if you make a perfect heart shot.

This warrants a safe shooting position, long distance or better tactics.

The books told me (like you did too) that many experienced bear hunters choose to brake bones with their first shot. Front shoulder seemed to be the most popular option. if the shoulder is destroyed bear will have great difficulties to get you before your second shot.

So, to my hunt I chose my 45/70 Guide gun and loaded some 405 grain large game bullets very hot. 45/70 has some impressive penetration for such a slow caliber (when comparing to many magnums). 450 Marlin should behave similar way and can be loaded ever hotter. Using very high quality bullets is recommended.

Tony CH,

Thanks for your insight on the topic. The bear that I mentioned in my earlier post was killed with a 1895 Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70. I was shooting a 500 grain hardcast at about 1800 FPS.
And as I described, the bear still traveled 50 yards before giving it up. Great round, great rifle!

I was under the impression that the original poster was looking for comments on a close range defensive rifle. Guess I'm not sure.
If I were dealing with a planned event at a longer range, I wouldn't have any reservations about a 300 Mag or 7mm Mag or 30-06. I am very confidnet with my shooting abilities and have killed elk with these calibers and good shot placement. But when dealing with a bear up close, and maybe moving toward you rapidly, I want something that will have that crushing effect. I am confident that the "hot" 45-70 loads will do as well as most. One of the other replies observed that the 505 Gibbs and 500 NE would be better, but also would be too heavy and uncomfortable to carry. One of the reasons that I like the Guide Gun because of it being comfortable to carry.

In 2003 my 16 year old son and I spent a couple of months in Alaska. We did lots of fishing and spent a lot of time in the bush. At all times, one of us (usually me) carried a Guide Gun. We never had an issue. Since then I have acquired a rifle scabbard that fits in the middle of the back and has straps like a backpack. The Guide Gun fits perfectly, is well balanced and is quick to retrieve.

I firmly believe that you can't go wrong with that rifle and the 45-70.

This has been a great topic!

I guess I'll order some 320 grains Woodleighs, and work up a bear load for my 9.3x62. Perhaps it will deliver more punch than the 285 grains Lapua's I'm using now. The 320 grains bullet requires a slower burning powder, so I hope I can burn the load efficiently in my 20"-barrel, otherwise it won't be any energy gain over the 285 ...

Previously they told me black bears weren't very though. Even a good choice to do some handgun hunting ...

I'd trust a marlin 444 or 45/70 with Buffalo Bore ammo. They'll bring down most bear. If the first shot doesn't, follow ups are fast. Both mine are up for sale.

A stainless Mod. 760 (7600) 18" barrel in 35 Wehlen. Does one exist? Probably not, but it sure would be handy. roger

quote:

Originally posted by raybass:
I've never even seen a bear in the wild(none in texas)

Here is a video for ya

Leakey, TX

http://bone-ranches.com/LewisBear.wmv

100% STOPER IS A TALL ORDER. I think my best recordation starts with 458 Win Mag in a 18-20 in barrel that is fast handling and controlled feed.
I had a guide that worked Kodiak tell me big bears can be knocked down with nearly any suitable caliber but they get back up. The bigger the cartridge the longer the bear will stay down giving the hunter a better chance of getting more rounds into it.
Bill

I've only ever had to stop one bear. It was a blackie just a few pounds shy of 700. Luckily it was going straight away from me rather than straight at me. But I can give the .375 Wby rave reviews on a single incidence of a one-shot immediate stop. Kinda a Texas heart shot sorta deal. No CNS involvement. Dropped like a ton of bear poop. I'd stand my ground against any bear, no matter the color variety with that rifle and I'll betcha a dollar I win every time.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

quote:

Originally posted by Steffen-9.3:
what do you guys consider minimum for always stopping a bear at close range?

can you please recommend one for north-american grizzly and one for european brown bear

A Ford F-550 4 x 4 with 3" schd. 80 brush guard here and a Unimog similarly set up there. But if you don't either handy, a 458 Win Mag is plenty of energy, cheap and common.

In Alaska its 3"XX sch 80 dont cut it

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:

quote:

Originally posted by Steffen-9.3:
what do you guys consider minimum for always stopping a bear at close range?

can you please recommend one for north-american grizzly and one for european brown bear

I think a .338 Win. Mag. loaded with 250-275 grain premium bullets or other cartridge in the same class is sufficient. For close range, a heavily-loaded .45/70 with the 350-grain Speer or tougher bullet will do a great job! The Russians use a .35-caliber round made by necking up the 7.62X54R case for brown bear. I would expect this to perform like a .35 Whelen......

Yup, this is the 9.3 x 53 R MEDVED ( means Bear if I remember correctly)

Bear = Medve (adult) Maci = Bear (young)

Just like whateverybody has said. what can you shoot comfortably?

I have a body who has lived up north for over 40 years. he hunts with 32-20's, 44-40's etc. I've seen him track a wounded bear with a .222.

Not what I would recommend but he felt comfortable with it. At the age of 67, hes still alive and no scratch on him.

I feel comfortable with a 30 cal (pick your flavor), 35whelen, and/or 9.3.

FWIW, Inuit guides in the Canadian north use .223's against polar bears.

IMO, if you absolutely want 100% stopping power, I'd recommend something of the "Tow-Behind" nature...

Perhaps with "eighty-eight" written across the barrel.

The stuff about Inuit guides was only meant as trivial info and obviously would not justify anybody carrying a .223 for self defense against bears.

I also believe that if a bear is aware of you coming along a trail, and he decides that he wants to eat you, chances favor the bear. I do not believe the average guy could react in time to use a firearm, even if they had one.

Having said all that, since I regularly hunt in grizzly country, the gun I normally take is a M-700 .338WM.

But really, you have to see the bear first to have a chance.

Wel, I verified the other night that a 260 Rem will also drop a bruin, even tho it only weighed about 150 lbs tops.. more like 125 in reality....

A shot to the shoulder with a 100 grain hornady SP, to the shoulder and it turned and tumbled back down the hill it had just come up..

distance was only about 35 yds...

When I was stationed in Alaska in the late '60's
most of the guides I knew who specialized in bear, and hunted other animals in "bear" country carried .458 WinMags ...usually with a fairly short barrel of 20" to 21". Those that didn't carried a variety of rifles.

From what I understand many now carry the .416 RemMag and I know of a couple of outfitters who require their guides to carry the .416 as a minimum.

I think a "sport" hunting with a guide would be well-served carrying nothing lighter that a .338 of some persuasion....others will certainly kill a bear but why spend all that money (and sweat) just to have the guide need to step in and shoot.

M1S90 loaded with HeviShot 00?

This has been a fine post with some excellent suggestions. The one common thought put fourth here that I have an issue with is the thought that a lever gun is so much faster than a bolt gun. Now at the range, with your trusty Marlin in 45-70 and your favorite 45-70 load, I'm sure things are just fine for speed. Now load that rifle up with those Buffalo Bore rounds or those hot handloads everyone is talking about. Head to the range and fire five of them as fast as you an place the damn bullets on a pie plate at 25 yards. Then, take your favorite bolt gun, load with the normal ammo that you would otherwise shoot, because your 300 win isn't downloaded to start with. Now fire that five times as fast as you can hit that pie plate at 25 yards. Video tape yourself doing this and I just bet you get a big surprise. Sure that big ole chunk of lead out of the lever gun may bring you some comfort when things get tense, but if those chunks of lead are not ripping through bone and flesh, they are completely worthless. I'll take a couple good hits from Nosler Partitions, Swifts, Northforks or any other decent bullet in 30 cal, over a whole bunch of noise out of that "oh its so fast lever gun". If you doubt this, go back and watch some videos of Jeff Cooper and Finn Aagaard working a bolt gun. Not only are they faster with a bolt gun than most any of us are with a lever gun, but they are putting lead on target with each shot. I champion the 458 Winchester in CRF actions. And so do countless men who stake their lives on their weapon of choice working. How many African Professional Hunters choose lever guns for back up? And then how many choose modified Mauser 98's with open sights. Better take a look at those rifles and what they weigh. By the time you have that lever gun ready to go, I bet you are as heavy or heavier than the Mauser. My 458 with a 22 inch barrel weighs 7.25 pounds WITH THE SCOPE, SLING AND FOUR ROUNDS! But then again, the bluing is gone off the barrel where I typically carry it over my shoulder. Any rifle that is on a sling is to slow to get into battery. If you know you're in a place that could throw 1400 pounds of snarling teeth and claws at you, the time for BS is over. Keep the rifle in your hands and make damn sure you can shoot it like a second nature. Otherwise, hire a guide and let him go first.

Go to the range, take the ammo you intend to hunt with and shoot it until you can do it with out thinking. Do it until the rifle's recoil is the signal to your brain to work the action and put another slug down range. Mount the rifle with your eyes closed. If you open them and find your eyes in line with what ever sighting system you are using, then its perfect. Otherwise, modify the stock until that rifle comes up and fits as an appendage would. The next time you see that the weather is going to be miserable, spend all day at the range. Shoot until you are soaked and cold and tired. Then, after you ache, and you are starting to loose feeling in your fingers and toes, look at the target in front of you and imagine that is is going to kill you in a matter of seconds. Now if you can bring that rifle up, empty it with all the rounds hitting target, with the rain running down your forehead into your eyes, with your entire body shaking from the cold, and the rifle soaked and slippery, then head home, knowing that the bear you are concerned with no longer has the upper hand.

Please understand that I have the utmost respect for the lever guns in question. I have owned and still own many of them. I have a very early 1895 in 45-70 that is not micro grooved and has the straight grip stock. It is a fine hunting arm and works very well. But, I have had it jam, and refuse to feed the next round. I have had freezing rain raise hell with the action, making it non functional. A Marlin 1895 will never archive the reliability of a Mauser 98 and with some practice and a little elbow grease, the 98 is as fast or faster when talking about big recoiling cartridges. Good luck and good shooting.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

Caliber is not a good criteria to use, but most do just that. More important is bullet placement, and bullet construction and they carry equal weight.

Exactley!!!!!!

And in general, at close range there will be no gain from 2800fps than 2600 fps. But it will give more recoil, making a second shot harder. Meaning, I would rather have a .338-06 than a .338Winmag.