Hi all, sorry if this has been covered previously, but I'm having a hard time containing my enthusiasm for my new little rifle.

I couldn't pass up a good deal on a Ruger Frontier in .308 win last Friday. It's a really sweet little rifle - I'm very pleased with its size and handling.
No optics for it yet, but I'll probably end up with a Burris 2.75x.

I've been using Varget and 4064 with great results in my 22" bbl M77mk2 308. No chrony information, but based on drop at 200 yards, I'm guessing about 2700 fps with middle of the road 168 grain loads.

With the 16.5" barrel on the Frontier, should I be looking at powders with faster burn rates? With the same loads, should I expect about 50fps drops in velocity? I'd like to end up with hunting and target loads with a PBR of about 250 yards.

Also, I've been told to stick to lighter bullets with the shorter barrel, as they perform better. Is there truth to that? Why? If I have to stick to lighter bullets (150 gr, I guess?), would that still be acceptable for elk? (Given proper shot placement, of course. I'm lazy - I'll pass on a shot if I'm not certain. I don't like to track wounded game)

And of course, any observations or tips on my new rifle would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
James

My wife has the ruger carbine in the 308 with the short barrel. I used the same load in it has for a longer barrel 308. I have loaded 150, 165 and 180 grain bullets and by far the best load has been the 180 grain. It is amasing what that little gun loaded with 180 partitions will do. My wife has killed 3 elk 6 deer and one antelope with that gun and load (180 grain) and only the antelope took more than one shot. The only reason the antelope took a second shot is she hit to far back with the first shot. Another interesting fact is I have yet to recover one of those 180 partitions. Every one has been a complete pass thru including the elk. To be fair here my wife only takes broadside shots and almost allways less than 250-300 yards so I do not know if they would exit on a raking shot.

quote:

With the 16.5" barrel on the Frontier, should I be looking at powders with faster burn rates?

IMO....no.....use the same load you'd use in a longer barrel.

i killed this buck w/ a 168 AMAX over 41.5 gr H4895.

AMAX 168 for hunting? Oddly enough, that's what I've been using for practice/target loads. Consistent 1.5 moa TEN shot groups!

Does Hornady recommend AMAX as a hunting bullet? I thought that the jacket was supposed to be too thin.

ETA: that's a fine looking buck.

James

I have done a lot of hunting with 308's with 18 to 20" barrels.

I would use the same factory loads or powders that i would use with any 308, with the exception of some ball powders that might have much more muzzle flash than tubular powders.

All of my hunting reloads have been with IMR 3031. I started using it first on the recommendation of a friend and never saw a reason to change.

39.5gr if IMR 3031 with most any 165 or 180gr bullet shoots great in all the 308's I have tried them in.

quote:

With the 16.5" barrel on the Frontier, should I be looking at powders with faster burn rates? With the same loads, should I expect about 50fps drops in velocity? I'd like to end up with hunting and target loads with a PBR of about 250 yards.

NO!! It is a popular myth that short barrels demand faster powders. But all you get from a faster powder is higher than necessary pressures and lower MV!

You will still get the highest velocity levels available by using the sloest powders that produce the highest velocities in the longer barrels, despite shooting them in a shorter barrel. The reason for this is that you need to keep the pressures as high as you can do safely for as long as the bullet is still in the barrel, regardless of length.

And you are also going to lose a lot more than 50 FPS over a 22" or even 20" barrel in that 16.5" tube! Probably closer to a 200 FPS loss.....

El D,
Ah, right... I meant to say I should expect a drop of 50 fps / inch. Is that somewhat close to the mark?

quote:

NO!! It is a popular myth that short barrels demand faster powders. But all you get from a faster powder is higher than necessary pressures and lower MV!

very well put.

I disagree with that statement

The only real reason for a shorter barel is convenience in tighter environments, which mean less range is needed....

Lighter loads are appropriate because they will reduce recoil in this especially much lighter weapons...

Why would you need a 300 yd load for taking game at 100 yds or less...

Its shot placement, not velocity is what it is all about...

In a light rifle, with a shorter barrel...lighter loads give you less recoil, hence better control of your shooting ability, less muzzle blast which is also distracting to most shooters for good shot placement.. and finally, you don't need high velocity at short ranges... in fact depending on how small the game may be, and bullet construction, high velocity can actually work against you...

particularly the heavier your bullet and the bigger the bore, the less velocity you need at the close ranges these rifles were intended for.......

The best powders for these applications in the 308 would be the SR 759, the 4198s, RL 7, Rl10, H 322, IMR 3031 burn rates...

Yiminy

A few comments on your rifle.

I am real fond of short barreled 308's.
I have never found them to be any sort of handicap. I killed a peccary at 412 yards with my 308 Blaser R 93 Tracker [19 3/4" bbl].

A lady that I bear hunted with had a Ruger Frontier, and I have handled another.
I think It will make a great hunting rifle.

You might want to consider a scope with a little more power, like a Leupold 1.5-5, or a 1.75-6.

The higher power scope will help you pick out a clear path through brush a little better.

I would recommend the heavy duplex as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Yiminy:
El D,
Ah, right... I meant to say I should expect a drop of 50 fps / inch. Is that somewhat close to the mark?

Each rifle is different, but if you anticipate 50 FPS/inch, your calculations should not be too far off.....

quote:

Originally posted by Yiminy:
AMAX 168 for hunting? Oddly enough, that's what I've been using for practice/target loads. Consistent 1.5 moa TEN shot groups!

Does Hornady recommend AMAX as a hunting bullet? I thought that the jacket was supposed to be too thin.

ETA: that's a fine looking buck.

the AMAX when driven very fast with upset violently. like a BT that ALOT of people use for whitetail.
driven to a more conservative MV uspet is not so dramatic.
i shoot the same load from my 20" Steyr and get 2550 (SD + or - 15FPS) but i havent chronod out of the frontier.
the round on this deer entered between 2 ribs destoyed the back of the closest lung, turned the liver to gel and created 3 seperate dime sized exits in a 4" group. there was enough blood to trail him in the rain and he only went 40 yards.
other deer i have shot w/ this load have not had exit wounds, even a frontal head shot on a good sized buck that caught him in the Tzone looking up didnt exit.
w/ the H4895 i get very very little flash and a very low sound signature. perhaps the wet air that morning and me sitting on the ground had something to do with it, but, 3 hunters nearest to me say they heard what sounded like a pistol pop.

the load is spot on to what hornady sells to LE marketed as the TAP ammunition. same velocity, same bullet. they say this about this load...
Hornady 308 TAP ammunition was specifically developed for the police marksman who prefers the increased bullet weight and barrier penetration of the 308 cartridge. Hornady Match Grade TAP 308 loads offer reliable functioning and consistent performance that delivers when it counts. With a low muzzle signature and superior terminal performance, Hornady 308 TAP loads provide a low risk of over-penetration due to its low retained weight after target engagement, and has enhanced barrier penetration due to the polymer-tipped bullet. An excellent round for SWAT Precision Marksmen. Hornady 308 TAP ammunition provides industry leading performance for precision marksmen and tactical professionals. Superior terminal performance and unmatched accuracy


as far as the AMAX not being recommended for use on game, performance on whitetails it nothing short of outstanding.

OK NE , what the hell ,is a peckery ?
I think in your scope discussions you are comparing apples to oranges, The 2.75 Burris is a scout scope.
I have considerd getting a similar animal for my 1895 marlin.
I have played with one on a ruger frontier at a gun shop and I can't think of a faster way to get a shot off.
But for precise shooting , not so good.
I think a 250 yard max point blank range would be a bit of a reach , with that short of a barrel.Not sure though would have to reserch.
When compared to your 22 inch ruger I would expect a velocity loss beetween 25 and 50 Feet per inch. With a 5.5 inch difference in length,
(I think the ruger frontier is 16.5) you would be lucky not to loose a 150 fps.
If you want to flatten things out a little,
It would be a good idea to try the 130 grain barnes TTSX. i read of some guys using them from a 300 win in africa to kill animals as big or bigger than elk.
I sure like Rugers and I sure like the .308...tj3006

Thanks for all the help!

2.75 Burris is on the way, 100 rounds of AMAX 168s loaded up, and another 200 cases prepped for some Speer 125 TNT.

It's shaping up to be a good weekend.

Thomas, a peccary is a javelina, or more precisely, a collared peccary.

I played with a REM 600 in 308 (18.5" bbl) for a several years then had it rebarreled to 7mm-08 with a short barrel too. I tried, all powders in the normal burn rate range and without fail, IMR4895. I've made up loads for other 308s and 7mm-08 and IMR4895 always seems to work for best speeds and accuracy.

RH

I've played around with various barrel lengths in rifles chambered to the .308 Win. ranging from 18.5" on a Ruger 77 RSI (stocked to the muzzle) to a 22" Winchester M70. Thee's a 20" Remington 660 and a 19" custom in a lawson thumbhole stock as well, but let's do the comparison between the Ruger RSI and the M70, just for splits and grins. First of, the Ruger has proven to be extremely fussy about what powder charge and bullet weight gets used in it. Only a very few loads have proved to be satisfactory. My main load is 49.0 gr. of W-760 with the 165 gr. Speer Hot-core. (CAUTION: MAX LOAD IN MY GUNS.)I realize that this is not the optimum powder for a .308, but it's what this rifle likes. The load shoots reasonably well in all of my .308 Win. Rifles so I stick with it. Velocity from the 18.5" barrel of the Ruger is 2550 FPS and from the 22" Winchester, 2610 FPS, a difference of 60 FPS. Unless I know I'm going to be hunting where shots are going to be short (150 yards or less) I sight my rifles in 3" high at 100 yards. If I'll be hunting where the ranges are shorter,as 150 yards or less, then I sight in either at dead on at 100 yard or 1" high at 100.
Sighted 3" high at 100 yards works well enough that I took a nice Mule Deer at 250 yards laser measured with that 165 gr. load. FWIW, the old Speer Nitrex ammo for thr .308 with 165 gr. bullet gave the same velocity as my handload.
My first .308 was the Remington 660 with 20" barrel. I lost a lot of my personal load data in the move from Nevada to Arizona, but I do remember that the load was the 150 gr. Sierra spitzer flat base bullet (the didn't call them Pro-hunters back then) with a stiff load of H-335. Sighted in 3" high at 100 yards, I was able to take a large Mule Deer at 425 paces with that load. I'll be honest that it was 95 percent luck and 5 percent skill.
Both the shots mentioned just proves that short barrels do not have to be a handicap at the longer ranges.
Just a couple of comments about that H-335 load. It is a good one with certain serious drawbacks. One, the report is extremely loud and very high pitched and piercing. It's uncomfortable even with good hearing protection.
The flash from the muzzle is bright enough to be seen at high noon in the middle of summer. At the time, money was very tight and H-335 could be had for $2.25 a pound when everything else was at least double the price. When things got better financialy, I went to better powders.
I would just use the same powders you now use for your longer barreled rifle. My preference in bullets for the .308 is the 165 gr. Speer Hot-core for deer and I probably would use it on elk too, should I decide to use a .308 for them.
If my W-760 load gave the same 2610 FPS in your 22" rifle, I would estimate about 2480 FPS with the same load in the 16.5" barrel based on the results from my guns.
Paul B.

Thomas Jones

I realize the Burris was a scout scope. I have a Tanker Garand set up with a scout scope, and my brother has a scout scope on his Marlin Guide Gun. They do work well, fast and close.

There might be times when he would prefer a little more magnification or light gathering ability. With the Ruger Frontier it would be an easy thing to have 2 scopes in rings sighted in for the rifle, one scout one regular, and change them around as necessary IF the Ruger rings go back to zero.

Sometimes early and late my brother has said he wished he had a regular scope that gathered more light.

Also, I have found that a low powered variable with an illuminated reticle is just as fast up close as a scout scope and has the added advantage of more magnification and light gathering, when needed.

With the illuminated reticle it is far superior when hunting in low light.

My brother has taken deer wild bigs and black bear with his Guide gun.

I have shot several 18 and 20" bbled 308's to 600 yards on paper with good accuracy.

my frontier was zeroed at 150 yards with said load and shot 1" groups w/ the little 2-7 leupold at 100. from the bench of course.