The older I get, the more I like to hunt with heavier bullets. In my younger days, I was sold on light, quick-kill bullets (like the 80-grain in .243, and 150-grain in my '06, 130-grain in my .270s, etc.). I really liked the DRT (dead right there) qualities these bullets seemed to posess.

Then, a few years ago, I shot a deer with a 150-grain 30-06 and it ran off like it was untouched. I was sure I had missed it (it wasn't DRT), but made a search anyway, and, low and behold, I found it dead about 80 yards away, shot right in the lungs. There was not one drop of blood that I could find leading to this deer. Later, I shot a buck with an 80-grain .243, and that deer also ran off. I searched for the deer for four hours without finding a single drop of blood. A Hunting buddy later found the deer in the creek in the opposite direction from which it had run. From what he could tell, it was shot right where I was aiming, behind the shoulder. Then I remembered that most all the deer I shot and recovered did not have pass-throughs, and had they run, recovery might have been difficult.

I had another buddy that consistantly shot deer with 180-grain bullets in an '06, and he almost never (almost) lost a deer, and always had good blood sign. His deer uaually ran, but he would simply follow the blood trail and find them.

He finally convinced me, and sure nuff, I have been very happy with the results. The other day, I shot a nice buck with 150-grain partition out of a .270. It ran about 100 yards, and piled up. The pass-through shot created a four-lane blood trail to follow and I simply walked right to him. Last season I shot an eleven pointer (eastern count) with a hand-loaded TBBC that went a good 200 yards, but we, again, had a massive blood trail to follow.

Each to his own, and I would never put anyone down for using a bullet he or she really likes, but I like heavy bullets, at least for hunting in the Eastern States.

I'll be able to get back to you with my opinion sometime next week. I've always shot 130gr bullets out of my 270 for deer, but this year I loaded up some 150gr Ballistic Tips to try. I really just had them sitting on the loading bench and wanted to put them to use, so I figured what the heck! Ideally, the hunting gods will smile on me and give me an opportunity to test them out. They're certainly the most accurate bullet I've yet tried out of my M77. The higher BC is certainly welcome on those 200+ yard shots.

Generally speaking, American hunters like the faster lighter bullets, while African hunters prefer the heavier-for-caliber ones. When you don't need the flat trajectory, I agree that a heavier bullet has the added knock-down power.

On monometal bullets your best performance on game is usually with the lighter bullets driven at a velocity that produces equal the momentum of heavier standard construction bullets.

On premium copper and lead construction bullets like partitions I have had much better luck with the heavier bullets for that caliber driven as fast as could be done. Versus lighter ones driven at higher velocity.

Some folks might not agree with that accessment. Experiences differ. But personally I believe not considering bullet construction is a mistake in these discussions.

I've used 150 gr.bullets in my 270 for years. Almost always a drt.

Try a middle weight TSX in the .270 and get the best of both worlds. I have had very good luck with them in the faster calibers particularly and in the .338's on larger game.

I generally still follow the old rule...use heavier bullets for close range/heavy cover and lighter bullets for long range / open country . In mixed country use something in between. Bullet technology made this obsolete with the advent of the Nosler Partition 60 odd years ago, but still works pretty well with "standard" bullets that I use for deer. Also gives me an excuse to tinker with more loads...

Lou

I almost always use heavy for caliber bullets with one singular exception and I have no idea what caused me to take that route with a singular caliber other than my favorite of all bullets is the Nosler Partition and the 260gr was the only Partition available when I started to load for the 375H&H. The accuracy out of the rifle I was loading for at the time (a custom ss Mdl 70) was phenominal to say the least. The best group was a 20 (yes 20) round group that maesured .7. I figured with that kind of accuracy I didn't need to search further so settled on that as my standard 375H&H load. It never once let me down in 8 safaris on all kind of game. Neither has the 220gr Partition in my 30-06 or the 175gr Partition in my 7x57. The heavy for caliber may not be necessary but is comforting.

Heavy for calibre is where it's at, both up close and long range. The folks that think a light for calibre bullet helps them flatten their trajectory and sustain their downrange energy are pretty much kidding themselves. `They're also the sort that believe a poorly placed shot with a light, hyper-fast bullet will kill thru hydrostatic shock.
Usually the difference in the trajectory of the light bullet and the heavy bullet is well within the holding ability of most hunters and the carry up of the heavier bullet makes it a no contest.

weight of metal kills; velocity impresses folks around the water cooler that don't hunt.

Wouldn't it be nice to have 145gr. 25 caliber hunting bullets and a .257 Roberts rifle that would adequately handle them? The answer is yes it would. roger

I, too, like passthrus and have discovered that bonded bullets allow me to have it all.....I can shoot the faster/lighter bullets and still get exits with the bonded bullets.

My current best bullet in my 6.5 X 55 is the 120 grain Northfork.....over 3,000'/sec and will go thru a lot of deer!

If it wasn't for this bullet, I'd be shooting 140 grain interlocks a few hundred '/sec slower.....probably still kill deer as it really don't take much!

bartsche i bet that a 145gr. 25 cal round would have a crazy BC out of a 25-06 and would be pretty good on game that is way out there

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I, too, like passthrus and have discovered that bonded bullets allow me to have it all.....I can shoot the faster/lighter bullets and still get exits with the bonded bullets.

My current best bullet in my 6.5 X 55 is the 120 grain Northfork.....over 3,000'/sec and will go thru a lot of deer!

If it wasn't for this bullet, I'd be shooting 140 grain interlocks a few hundred '/sec slower.....probably still kill deer as it really don't take much!

140 Interlocks work well in my lil' CZ550 FS. They are extremely accurate in that rifle and they hammer deer. I would shoot them in my Kimber .260, but it isn't too partial to 140gr bullets with it's 1/9 twist. The Kimber favors 129gr Interlocks.

Back to the subject, I prefer heavy for caliber, lead core, flat-based bullets for most NA hunting applications. Haven't had a need for anything more than an Interlock or Partition.

I do believe these picts of a "meat buck" i harvested explain why a "pass through" is so important...

I walked up to him, took a pict., rolled him over and took the second pict...

Entrance hole,


Exit hole,


DM

quote:

Originally posted by GAHUNTER:
I really liked the DRT (dead right there) qualities.....

Then, a few years ago, I shot a deer with a 150-grain 30-06 and it ran off like it was untouched.

Same thing could have happened with a 220 grain bullet.

quote:

Later, I shot a buck with an 80-grain .243, and that deer also ran off. I searched for the deer for four hours without finding a single drop of blood.

This is EXACTLY why so many threads regarding what caliber is adequate for deer, or elk, or whatever are a problem for me. It's not whether or not the rifle/bullet/caliber will kill the animal, it is the manner in which it dies, and WHERE.

quote:

I had another buddy that consistantly shot deer with 180-grain bullets in an '06, and he almost never (almost) lost a deer, and always had good blood sign. His deer uaually ran, but he would simply follow the blood trail and find them.

Just goes to show that even a heavier bullet doesn't produce drt either (in your friend's case).

quote:

He finally convinced me, and sure nuff, I have been very happy with the results. The other day, I shot a nice buck with 150-grain partition out of a .270. It ran about 100 yards, and piled up. The pass-through shot created a four-lane blood trail to follow and I simply walked right to him. Last season I shot an eleven pointer (eastern count) with a hand-loaded TBBC that went a good 200 yards, but we, again, had a massive blood trail to follow.

I'm glad you are happy with those blood trails. As you said, to each his own. For me, 300 total yards of travel after being hit by a bullet by both deer is unacceptable. If you REALLY want DRTs, shoot 'em in the shoulder. Then worrying about a blood trail is nonexistent.

I agree with heavy for the caliber bullet choices up to the 40 or maybe the 45 calibers.

My current custom rifle being made is designed with a traditionally fast [1:7.5"] twist to handle 140-160 grain slugs as best as possible in the 6.5X55.

I personally think too many Americans have gotten wrapped up in the faster the better and have converted to smaller bullets. I know, I know, the manufacturers are trying to help you all out that like this by creating 'super bullets' to hold together unlike the traditional bullets in these calibers. Barnes has made a way of life out of it after being the premier maker of heavy for the caliber bullets. I still have some 250 grain .308 slugs from Barnes in fact.

I personally believe that you cannot go wrong with bullets on the heavy side for caliber not traveling past 2650 fps. Dangerous game bullets under 200 fps....OMG! I know, I must not be American....or, or maybe I am a traditionalist.

Up until fairly recently, I've ALWAYS been a heavy bullet guy too. Then I found out that the bullet weight didn't matter when it penetrates the shoulder bone. DRT every time.

I use whatever is easiest to group and loads easy. Some rifles I shoot bigger bullets, others shoot the lighter ones.

quote:

weight didn't matter when it penetrates the shoulder bone.

Problem is there is some great meat on the shoulder of the animals I hunt and I would like to keep it.

If shoulder meat is a concern, then I agree with you. Shoulder meat is not a concern for me.

When working up a deer load,
I generaly plan on a shot no farther than 350 yards.
Unless you carry the heavy bullet thing to extreams the trajectory will be fine.
A 180 gr 30,06 a 150 gr 270 will be plenty flat.
That said, I am more concerned about bullet construction.
for example a 130 grain .270 balistic tip
is a very good deer bullet. But you would clearly have a better chance at a pass through with 130 partition or accubond.
I often use a middle weight bullet. A 165 is great fom an 06,
If I were shooting a .243 , I would stick with a hundred grain unless I was using a partition or an X bullet.
An 80 grain bullet is prety light...tj3006

I've never cared for too-heavy bullets for the caliber, "just right" always worked -> 130g 270, 140g 7mm, and so forth, for 40 years. The 6.5x55 129g Hornady was the one exception, being slightly heavier than the others. With today's bullets, though, I've dropped back a step in weight and up in velocity, where I can get drt and penetration, at least on whitetail deer. I'm now at 120g for 6.5x55, 270, and 7mm-08, but I don't find whitetails that hard to penetrate.

quote:

Originally posted by drunkintoaster:
bartsche i bet that a 145gr. 25 cal round would have a crazy BC out of a 25-06 and would be pretty good on game that is way out there

Considering that you'd be very lucky to get a 120gr from a 25-06 moving any faster than 3000fps
that 145 would be enough slower to entirely defeat the purpose of a 25-06.

Now considering that a .264bullet is only 0.007" larger in diameter and they ARE available in 140gr weights what's the point?

Let me further add that with any but the cheapest bullets the deer has yet to be born that will consistantly prevent a 120-125gr .264 bullet from exiting....

I don't ever expect to recover a 125gr partition fired from my swede at a deer unless the bullet stops in a TREE behind the deer...

Do you really believe that 0.007" makes that much of a difference in BC?

Who is kidding themselves?

If you have had problems with 150's from a 30-06 not exiting I've gotta ask what bullets are you using?

Hey the first time I showed up to hunt deer in PA with a 30-06 half the people I was hunting with looked at me like I was a packing an elephant gun... they all had 30-30's and 35Rems
all incidentally Marlin 336's

Now half the guys in the woods are packing 300winchesters.

I still haven't seen any of these kevlar deer....

AD

I have done a bit of hunting with Barnes Originals and have done some work with the:

115 Grain 6MM RN Bullet
195 Grain Spitz 7MM Bullet
225 Spitz and 250 grain RN 308 bullet
275 grain Spitz and 300 grain RN 358 Bullet.

These bullets if driven at a not obscene velocity hold together, expand and penetrate well. They are good killers particularly on heavy game. On lighter game the kills are sure but often unspectacular.

I find that the Nosler Partitions in lighter weights penetrate as well, hold together and have a much better trajectory. The higher speed leads to faster kills on light game and equivalent kills on heavy game. They also recoil less. No downside to using a medium weight Nosler.

quote:

The 6.5x55 129g Hornady was the one exception, being slightly heavier than the others

Funny, I shoot nothing smaller than 140 currently and plan on that with the new rifle. There is plenty of punch there and no worried on pounding through the body of a wild boar, deer, or bear.

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:

quote:

Originally posted by drunkintoaster:
bartsche i bet that a 145gr. 25 cal round would have a crazy BC out of a 25-06 and would be pretty good on game that is way out there

Considering that you'd be very lucky to get a 20gr from a 25-06 moving ay faster than 3000fps
that 145 would be enough slower to entirely defeat the purpose.AD

WOW!!!

Was that a three or four Martiny lunch? 20gr.? REALLY? Always glad to hear your negative comments. roger

quote:

Originally posted by DM:
I do believe these picts of a "meat buck" i harvested explain why a "pass through" is so important...

I walked up to him, took a pict., rolled him over and took the second pict...

Entrance hole,


Exit hole,


DM

I shot a 200 lb buck back in Wisconsin one year, at about 225 yds, and it looked exactly like that.. very little blood on the ground at all.. just a llttle red spot.. and 3 kermels of corn laying in the middle of it...

however on field cleaning the deer, between those two little bitty holes on each side of him.. inside it looked like someone had stirred his lungs and liver with a chain saw...

the round and load was a 30/06, 2 x 7 Leupold Shotgun scope set on 2 power, Browning A Bolt.. shooting Remington Factory ammo... 220 grain Round Nose...

Dropped the buck like a sack of potatoes...

quote:

Originally posted by Clayman:
They're certainly the most accurate bullet I've yet tried out of my M77.

It is funny you mention accuracy out of a M77. I have HAD to shoot 140-150 gr bullets in my M77 270 ever since I got the gun 25 years ago. My gun hates 130 gr ammo, period.

I now have a couple of other 270's that will shoot 130 gr bullets, but I still load 150 grs anyway.

GAHUNTER,
Welcome to the club, and exclusive club of folks that have learned that what you read and what you hear is not always right. experience is the best teacher..

Light fast bullets give lightening like kills, no doubt about that, and when they work the work fantastic, but when they are bad they are very very bad!

I like a big long heavy for caliber bullet because it makes two holes, leaves a real good blood trail, always kills well but maybe not so quick, it never fails if the bullets perform correctly and that applies to all bullets and weights, they must perform as designed. Big bullet don't bloodshot meat nearly as much,

I have found them to be more suitable for hunting than other bullets. Also a heavy for caliber bullet normally bucks wind better and maintains its velocity over long ranges better.

I like 175s in my 7x57, 180s or 190 Hornadays in my 06, 200s and 220s in my 300 H&H, 300s in my .375 and so fourth..I always liked the 160 in my .270s.

For me, it depends on what I'm shooting. If I'm hunting with my 7mm/08 I go right in the middle: 140gr Nosler B-Tips (probably not a significantly better combination for eastern whitetail hunting, IMHO). When I take the 7mm Wby afield, I go with well-constructed bullets in the 160gr-175gr range to mitigate meat damage. These days, however, I primarily handgun hunt with a FA M83 .454 Casull. After some dismal performance with some heavily constructed bullets (Nosler PT/HG and FA 260gr JFP), I've settled on a light-for-caliber 240gr XTP/Mag. Talk about your DRT!!!

Given good placement any well made bullet from 6.5 mm and larger with a sectional density of 250 and above will reliably kill deer.

You can get the best of both using Amax's. I use 162gr in my 7mmRM. They open fast and will go through as long as a heavy bone is not hit, in that case I have never had a deer take a step.

Doc,

Yeah, I'm a behind the shoulder kind of guy.....now. Didn't used to be, but several trips to Africa and Europe has converted me. All it takes is getting fussed at (sometimes cussed at) by your PH or stalker to convince you to move the cross hairs back a little.

Now, I didn't mention that I'm a reloader and have started using non-premium heavy for caliber bullets in my non-magnum rifles, with the exception of the Partition, which I don't place in the premium category, while others do. I really like Hot Cores, Core Lokts, Grand Slams and non-bonded Hornady bullets for use on deer. This way, I get maximum expansion and damage, while still getting a pass through. I also load a lot of Nosler Partitions, especially in '06. The only reason I was using a 180-grain TBBC in my '06 to hunt deer with was that particular rifle was zeroed with those bullets for an elk hunt and I didn't want to rezero it, so I used the TBBCs. Worked good on the eleven pointer, but it went 200 yards shot behind the shoulder.

I use the 155 Gr Lapula Mega tip 155 gr in my 264 win mag they are awesome.I liked the hole they knocked through everything I shot.I Liked only 180 gr or heavier in 30-06 when I use to use it.I liked the 200 gr Federal boat tail loads best.I used them in the 300 win mag also.I only use 250 gr and heavier in my 338 win mag and my 338-378 weatherby they hit really hard.I do like softer bullets such as serria 250 gr bt for longer range on non dangerous game.I mostly use 250 gr partitions at 3150 in my 338-378 they hit really hard.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:

quote:

Originally posted by drunkintoaster:
bartsche i bet that a 145gr. 25 cal round would have a crazy BC out of a 25-06 and would be pretty good on game that is way out there

Considering that you'd be very lucky to get a 20gr from a 25-06 moving ay faster than 3000fps
that 145 would be enough slower to entirely defeat the purpose.AD

WOW!!!

Was that a three or four Martiny lunch? 20gr.? REALLY? Always glad to hear your negative comments. roger

Se Habla "Typo"?

And it was a toothache actually.

So please tell me what exactly will a 145gr .257 bullet REALLY DO that a 145gr .264 bullet won't?

Most if not all of the things people take so seriously while deriding someone elses dearly held beilefs is nothing more than chosing their
own dilusional ideas over the other guy's dilusional ideas while IGNORING all of the overt and implied contradictions.

Oh and Roger? Dont try to bullshit me or anyone else that you did't already KNOW it was a typo.

You chose to be dismissive because I had the unmittigated gaul to disagree with you.

Frankly I don't care if you try to bullshit me, I'm basically immune.
If you try to bullshit others they may not be.

what is tragic is bullshitting yourself and not being aware you are doing it.

I have my own ideas on how to load and how to shoot, but I'm not so arrogant to believe that there is no possibility that I can be wrong.

I've never lost a deer by wounding it, so I'm either right or lucky, I don't care to even guess which, as I don't yet have sufficient data
(nor do I ever expect to... even should I live to be 2000years old...

How old are you Roger?


AD

quote:

Originally posted by oldun:
Given good placement any well made bullet from 6.5 mm and larger with a sectional density of 250 and above will reliably kill deer.