Has the Remington 700 taken a strangle hold as the top mass production bolt action made here in the USA? Winchester certainly opened the door with abysmal quality ultimately resulting in the total demise of M70 production. Ruger has a great rifle in the M77 Mark II but they do not have the sales volume of Remington & the 700. Savage makes great rifles that are superbly accurate.......but very ugly. Still, nice tools. But again the Savages do not approach the volume of the 700. Unlike many here, I have had great luck with Browning A-bolts....but made in Japan.

I think it was Outdoor Life that ran a gun survey a short while back where the Remington 700 just blew the compitition away as the favorite bolt action here in the states. More after market parts are available for the 700........right & left handed, than any of the the other marks. And all of my 700s & most I have seen just plain shoot. The same can not be said for Winchester M70s & Rugers.

Remington seems to have it's ears open & got rid of the ugly as sin "J" lock system (at least on the 700s). The CDL stock design looks great. And the quality of the 700s I have been looking at new on the shelf seem to have gone up.

Will the 700 become "Americas Rifle" because of all this? They sure look good to me. I may be picking up a left handed CDL 270 in the near future.

Guess I'll hafta wait and see what the 798's look like. I got soured on the 700's awhile back. Perhaps they'll be king by default?

I'll tell you if Savage would build a rifle the didn't have that barrel nut. The way they shoot Remington would have some serious competition. For the life of me some guys just can't get over that barrel nut. Personally the bottom line is how good does that gun shoot out of the box. I have lots of Remingtons I had to tinker with all of them to get them to shoot. That hasn't been the case with my Savages except they do need a better trigger. I like the more conventional one over the accu-trigger. But that's probably a mind thing as well.

Even without the barrel nut, the bolt handle, stock shape, trigger guard and rear screw make the Savage butt-ugly. The Remington, for all it's perceived flaws is considered a trim, attractive rifle by most of the buying public.

And most of the hunting public can't (and doesn't need to) shoot well enough to appreciate the accuracy of a Savage, unfortunately. Otherwise, it would already be King of the Hill.

Remington has been the top of the pile for a long time. They shoot good,look good and fit most everyone right off the shelf. They make more models of long guns than anyone else I believe and there price isn't half bad.I own a dozen remington 700's plus remington shotguns and rimfires and can't see myself ever buying a savage there just butt ulgy.If I wanted to shoot a 2x4 I could get one from the lumber store. As for winchester dying,oh well just how S--T goes in the business world you either go big or stay home. In short the other boys better step up and pitch or they will loss more market share and die on the vine also. Just my take on it.

Hoeram

hoeram did you get your Turkey or are you waiting for the coastise to leave and do your hunting later?

I have a Savage 22-250 that can shoot way better than I can. It's my only plastic stocked rifle and I don't mind it rattling around in the jeep. I consciously avoid looking at that barrel nut.

For people wanting to buy an USA made rifle those that want one that shoots good for a little cash will buy a Savage. People who want a nice American made rifle will buy Kimber. Average Joe and the rest will buy Remington's until model 70's come back out................DJ

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Johnson:
I'll tell you if Savage would build a rifle the didn't have that barrel nut.

I understand that this barrel nut is the central factor in what makes it possible for Savage to build a highly accurate rifle at a low price.

quote:

Remington 700 now top dog?

for some it always was....for me it's now the used gun racks.....finding used FN mausers and cheap M-70s isn't really difficult to do at all. Ya just have to look a bit.....

Sad state of affairs when a 700 is Top dog

The 700s are very accurate and descent looking rifles at a price many can afford. They've been king of the hill for many years around here as far as production made rifles are concerned.


Reloader

I think that the 700 takes top honors.

Those Savages are so dang ugly, they also feel a little clubby to me.

I'm a 700 fan for an off the shelf rifle.

I think the CZ can and should pick up the slack from the model 70 demise. I just purchased a 550 FS and also picked up a 70 featherweight (before price gouging) both in 270 and I am happy with both.

If the the new Remington Zastava actions are as rough as the Daly actions that I have handled, there won't be one of those in my future. But, I will have to wait and see.

I'll take a Ruger any day over a 700. I just can't get past the safety, bolt handle (looks as well as the brazed on handle) and extractor issue. Before you jump on, please notice I did not say ANYTHING about the push feed issue. I love my Weatherbys which gets my vote as the "non-plus-ultra" of production rifles. jorge

quote:

The 700s are very accurate and descent looking rifles at a price many can afford. They've been king of the hill for many years around here as far as production made rifles are concerned.

Out of all the brands of american made rifles I have owned they are the priciest(not including Weatherby) and have given the most hassles by far.

quote:

Out of all the brands of american made rifles I have owned they are the priciest(not including Weatherby) and have given the most hassles by far.

Must be shoppin' at the wrong spot SempreElk. I bought a 270 win ADL for 388 tax included for my wife about 5-6 years ago and it shoots from .5-.75 very regularly w/ several loads in the factory stock. I would imagine it would do quite well in a HS stock. Also bought a 7RM for a total around 400 that prints groups in the .4s and .5s regularly but I did spend another 150 for a used HS stock for it. It shot in the .6s-.75 w/ the tupperware stock. Bought a used ADL in 25-06 from Bobby for 365 shipped in a laminate stock and it too shoots well.

That's just a couple of the cheaper 700s I've bought in the last few years. I have some heavy bbl Remingtons that were from 620 - 715 total price and they all shoot less than .5 MOA(all bought in the last year).

Good Luck

Reloader

Not saying it doesn't happen but, I've put 1000s of rounds through 700s and I have never seen any of the mechanical problems mentioned in this thread. I hear alot of folks talk about feeding issues, extractor issues, and trigger issues, etc. Never seen em' and I've worked w/ a pile of them. The triggers are quite good after you set them the way you like them and I've pulled some stiff cases out of chambers and never broke an extractor or bolt handle.

I guess my shooting buddies and I as well as there buddies and so on have just been darn lucky that they haven't fallen apart on us.

Reloader

Reloader, actually most of the issues have been tigger related. On one 700 FS circa 1988 I had 3 remington factory triggers installed by Green Acres(jacksonville FL) all attributed to a bad batch of triggers delivered to remington by a supplier. I have had 2 custom KS's that went back for believe it or not another bad trigger and another with a bolt that was so tough to open that I needed a rubber mallet to open. Both occured in 1995-1997 time frame and were factory fresh when I purchased them. WHere was the quality control at the vaunted custom shop? In retrospect no Ruger,Winchester,Marlin even a freaking Mossberg had to go back.

quote:

Must be shoppin' at the wrong spot SempreElk

I guess one has to shop at a specific Remington gunshop to get their better grade EH.. Would that be Walmart? Every gunsmith is familiar with them because guess what everyone of them has them in their shop constantly.

I don't want this to escalate into a Rem 700 vs WIn Model 70 or Leupold vs Zeiss argument. I am just telling you what my experience with them has been

It's possible that the Remington 700 could become the new top dog. I'd personally like to see more Rugers and CZ's in circulation myself. Not to mention who says that it wasn't already the top dog?? I liked the Winchester Model 70, but have only one, reason..... TOOOO DAMNED expensive for what they were! Same goes for the Savage!!!!!!!! Actually doublelly so for the Savage. I don't give a SH*T how they shoot or look for that matter when they feel as bad as they do!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote: hoeram

quote:

can't see myself ever buying a savage there just butt ulgy.If I wanted to shoot a 2x4 I could get one from the lumber store.

Couldn't agree MORE!!!!

Quote: SDhunter

quote:

they also feel a little clubby to me.

I think that's being kind to the Savage!! My first inclination is ALWAYS to grab the muzzle end and see how the club swings!


And handling many Savages I can see why you see a lot of complaints about their feeding and extraction, lousy fit, finish, and materials choices esp. in the magazine and extractor sections of the gun.

If the remington would come with a sako or m-16 extractor like the Howa, I could acctualy own one.

For a hunting rifle, for me, its got to be CRF or atleast sako/m-16 extractor. On a target rifle, Im ok with the Remington design.

quote:

I don't want this to escalate into a Rem 700 vs WIn Model 70 or Leupold vs Zeiss argument

Semperelk: You can lead people to knowledge, but you can't make them think what you think. Just "google" Remington Triggers and law suits and see how many hits you get. Notice that I have not (yet) used a single perjorative when speaking about 700s, just pesonal preference and factual data:

Fact: There is a recognized issue with 70 triggers as evidenced by myriad lawsuits and documented as well as anecdotal evidence of same.

Fact: The bolt handle is a two piece affair, adhered on by brazing.

Opinion:The bolt handle is ugly and looks like a throat lozenge

Fact: The extractor is prone to breakage, particularly if debris is allowed to accumulate in the extractor channel. There is a good narrative on this over on the African Hunter Website.

Fact: I have not mentioned WORD ONE about the pushfeed issue as again, I am quite fond of my push feed rifles.

jorge

quote:

quote:
Must be shoppin' at the wrong spot SempreElk


I guess one has to shop at a specific Remington gunshop to get their better grade EH.. Would that be Walmart? Every gunsmith is familiar with them because guess what everyone of them has them in their shop constantly.

Nope not just one, You said they were quite pricey, I guess we just have a different opinion on what pricey means. There's alot of shops around here selling the discontinued ADLs from 300-350 and the newer SPSs for around 400. That's pretty cheap for a rifle IMO and I would buy one of these long before I bought any of the other similarly priced rifles.

Jorge, most all remington trigger problems have resulted from dummies tinkering w/ the adjustments and not knowing what the heck they are doing. Same can be done w/ other manufacturers as well, Model 70, Savage pre-accu, etc.

I've seen some real geniuses tinker w/ their triggers and create a very danagerous situation.

Have you personally broken off extractors on a 700? It very rarely happens.

Have you personally broken off a 700 bolt? personally know anyone who has? I've never even heard of it except for on the net and it goes right on top of the BS pile.

Also I'd like to add if the other Manus had as many rifles out as Rem has 700s out, there would be far more crys of how this or that should be better.

No, Remington's not the best by any means but, there is a pile of BS floating around about them. Every production rifle on the market has it's critics. Like your Weatherby rifle Jorge, I can think of many problems w/ them and several people that have had pure lemons but, they still do put out some nice rifles and I've shot some impressively accurate ones myself.

Have a Good One

If a cheap push-feed POS is your top dog, I'd hate to see the rest of your pack.

quote:

Jorge, most all remington trigger problems have resulted from dummies tinkering w/ the adjustments and not knowing what the heck they are doing. Same can be done w/ other manufacturers as well, Model 70, Savage pre-accu, etc.

I've seen some real geniuses tinker w/ their triggers and create a very danagerous situation.

Have you personally broken off extractors on a 700? It very rarely happens.

Have you personally broken off a 700 bolt? personally know anyone who has? I've never even heard of it except for on the net and it goes right on top of the BS pile.

A. Law suits had NOTHING to do with with tinkering with the trigger. It was folks just taking the safety off and the rifle discharging, Go ahead and do the google search. What proof do you have that {sic} most all Rem trigger problems are the result of tinkering?

B.Nope, I've only owned ONE 700 and didn't like it (opinion only). I have seen two bolts come off at the range. Sorry, but I don't have pictures.

C. Nope.Again, do a search here or go to the African Hunter website.

But with regards to C & D I've never owned a Yugo either to now they weren't very good. Thankfully I can read, reason make decisions and learn from other's mistakes.
-------------
There is a reason why there is an entire Cottage Industry devoted to:
1. Remington Trigger replacement
2. Remington extractor replacement

3. You are not going to let the facts get in the way of your predilection for Remingtons

4. I'm not going to change your mind

5. Let's quit while we're ahead.

jorge

Oh Jorge, Your just too closed minded.

What about the lawsuits filed against Weatherby?

What about the lawsuits filed against Sako? Remember the blow ups?

The fact is that all manufacturers have faults and all firearms manus have plenty of lawsuits filed against them.

There's nothing wrong w/ Remington 700s, they've been around for decades and will be around for many more.

I along w/ many of my shooting buddies have put thousands of rounds through them w/ no problems. I adjust my own triggers to 2.75-3.5lbs, do a thorough test afterwards to ensure safety, and do minor bedding when needed.

I have several Remingtons that shoot at or below .5 MOA and look quite nice to me while wearing Zeiss or Nikon optics and HS Stocks. If that's not your cup of tea, so be it, BUT DON'T tell me my rifles are crap.

Remington has the #1 selling rifle of all time. They must be doing something right.

Reloader

quote:

What proof do you have that {sic} most all Rem trigger problems are the result of tinkering?

Simply by word of mouth from range masters and by my own eyes as I said.

I've spoken w/ different rangemasters that say the most acidental discharges they have on their ranges are from idoits that "worked" on their triggers and didn't have a clue what they were doing. I've also seen some guys that had their sear engagement set ridiculously, they would have fires from slamming the bolt or taking off the safety. Luckily for those idiots the trigger disengages on a 700 when the safety is on.

Every story I've ever heard of rifles going off when they weren't supposed to usally had some form of "He had been working on the Trigger..."


Reloader

The M700 was an outstandingly engineered rifle when it first came out about 1950. I do not have one, I preferred M70’s for ease of bolt manipulation in the rapid fire positions. When bolt guns ruled the Highpower Rifle target line, two actions dominated: Remington and M70. Both have proven themselves to be durable actions. Both can be made into accurate reliable rifles. The Remington is the “safer†if you have a cartridge head go. The Remington also is built so tight that a few residual powder grains will make it difficult to close to the bolt.

I do have a Ruger M77 rifle, and it functions fine. It is a well engineered but not so finely built as a M700. I got the thing for a steal. Still if it was not for price, I would have preferred a Remington. There are just more accessories for the Remington than for the Ruger. And you can buy adjustable triggers for the Remington.

As for the Remington trigger problems, they are real, and they are all related to 1) tolerance stackup on single stage override triggers, and 2) maladjusted single stage triggers. Override triggers are more dangerous than the good old Mauser style direct pull trigger. The sears and trigger contacting surfaces on override triggers are very small, perhaps a hundredth of an inch. A little bit of wear, a little bit of misalignment, a heavy shock impact, and the firing pin overrides the mechanism and fires the rifle.

I have used the double stage trigger on military rifles for close to twenty years. I prefer them. It is a safer mechanism and (in most rifles) less likely to get out of order. It is too bad that the market wanted single stage triggers on their bolt guns. They have their limitations, and no redeeming features.

For a hunting rifle, or a weapon of war, the true M98 is still the best action of them all.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

I don't want this to escalate into a Rem 700 vs WIn Model 70 or Leupold vs Zeiss argument

Semperelk: You can lead people to knowledge, but you can't make them think what you think. Just "google" Remington Triggers and law suits and see how many hits you get. Notice that I have not (yet) used a single perjorative when speaking about 700s, just pesonal preference and factual data:

Fact: There is a recognized issue with 70 triggers as evidenced by myriad lawsuits and documented as well as anecdotal evidence of same.

Fact: The bolt handle is a two piece affair, adhered on by brazing.

Opinion:The bolt handle is ugly and looks like a throat lozenge

Fact: The extractor is prone to breakage, particularly if debris is allowed to accumulate in the extractor channel. There is a good narrative on this over on the African Hunter Website.

Fact: I have not mentioned WORD ONE about the pushfeed issue as again, I am quite fond of my push feed rifles.

jorge

Fact, remington bolt handle breakage is USUALLY
associated withsomeone chambering a round that won't fit, or was improperly sized

FACT, in 30 years of seeing, shooting and owning remingtons I've seen ONE broken extractor and that coincidentally happened at the same time of a brittle brass (factory round)
case head split....

Fact, most trigger/safety problems ARE the result of "tinkering" and the vast majority of the rest are the tresult of gummed 20 year old oil that causes the trigger mechanism to malfunction. Inadquate maintainance/cleaning is also "operator malfunction"

ALL of the injuries that resulted from those unintentional discharges were the result of operator malfunction in failing to point the weapon in a safe direction when manipulating controls or unloading the firearm

The mere fact that ANYONE was injured PROVES
that the weapon was pointed in an unsafe direction.

Hey, it is utterly inarguable that if the firearm were pointed in a "safe" direction nobody would be hurt (though they'd likely have the crap scared out of them)

ASKING if the Remington 700 is "top dog" in the bolt action rifle world is one of the exceptions to the age old rule "there is no such thing as a stupid question"
Like it or not the remington 700 has been "top dog" for 40+ years, all the rest are wannabees

Remington outsells virtually everyone else combined and does so by a good margin.

AllanD

An alibi. Most hunters never wear the barrel out of a rifle, so they do not get into function and wear issues that target shooters experience. A target shooter will shoot several thousand rounds a year in his rifle, sometimes much more. My rifle gunsmith, who is a top ranked target shooter, for a time shot a M77 ruger and shot out 11 barrels on his action. He had some interesting action set back measurements based on that experience.

So when you are in that community and ask questions you find out about action weakness. A common experience was the M700 Remington extractor would wear out. At some point in time the shooter would lift the bolt and the cartridge would either stay in the chamber or fall off the bolt face. This was also true of the M70 push feed extractor. It would wear out and experience the same functioning issues. It however was bigger and took a larger bite of the cartridge rim, so it took longer to wear out.

The one extractor that was recognized as the most durable was the M70 claw extractor. As long as the shooter fed rounds from the magazine, it would last indefinitely. My gunsmith told me to feed everything from the magazine in a pre 64. He had learned, through thousands of rounds fired in a pre 64, that the M70 claw extractor will fatigue fracture in time if the extractor is snapped over a round in the chamber.

I have always liked the 700 and it has always been a great performer for me. I have half a dozen in my safe now and generally they are a first choice for most hunting conditions. It is and continues to be the top dog.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
...I have used the double stage trigger on military rifles for close to twenty years. I prefer them. ...

Hey SlamFire, I thought Ruger changed to a Two-Stage trigger back when they went to the M77 Mark II. That was when they eliminated the absolutely excellent, totally adjustable trigger they had on the original M77s(with the Tange Safety).

Have they removed the Two-Stage trigger and moved on to something else now?

quote:

Have they removed the Two-Stage trigger and moved on to something else now

I have a brand new M77 MKII and I can assure you that it is not a 2 stage M98 style trigger.

Hello SlamFire,
Have shot for over 40 years competitive long range prone shooting as well as XC, position shooting, and all bolt gun shooting done with Rem. 700/40x actions, some with original barrel, most with custom Kriegers or Douglas and can say that I have not had one mechanical failure to date.
I maintain a record of shots, conditons, scores, data of all sorts on all rifles and when shooting on a regular basis, civilian and military, would accumulate near 4-5000 rounds a year per rifle for a couple rifles. Rule of thumb, keep one ready for matches, one on standby, and one in the armory being built. If you work them, they will break but never had one put me out of commission during a match or in other applications as well.
World class shooter now living in New Zealand some years ago did have a failure at Perry and someone made fun of his ugly looking Remington and response was that there were more than 100,000 rounds through the action and he figured it was time for a break down!
I see those opting for the Sako/AR15 style extractor for the 700 and personally would advise against that for can lead to problems other than extraction. Action/bolt was never intended to be made or modified in that manner and disturbs the design of the bolt face and can lead to gas escapes upon primer rupture, case rupture, etc. Not good.
I have seen one bolt handle come off and that was due to fellow beating it open due to gross overload on 300 Win Mag round. If it is a bother to one, have the handle removed, replace it with slight longer one, larger bolt knob,
drill and tap bolt shank to bolt body plus brazing. Guess you would just have to get a bigger hammer!!
I have heard about the law suits but when you realize the sheer number of Remingtons out there in the public's hands, might not be as unusual as it first appears. Not perfect, but it continues to be used and abused all over this world and that is not all bad.

PS Two stage trigger for Rugers I believe is only found on the V/T model. Not a bad trigger and wish they did put it on the std 77. If wrong on this sure someone will correct.

It's hard to have an intelligent discussion when people don't know the difference between factual and emotionally charged anectdotal evidence, although sometimes it is well presented as in driver's post. Thankfully, there are still plenty of choices out there and in my OPINION,and for the reasons I and others stated AD NAUSEAM, Remingtons just don't do it for me. jorge

I have had MIXED results with Rem. true they shoot.....but not always......many parts.....etc......but I did have a 338-06 that had to go back to the factory....originally new 270 synthetic stainless...ADL never fired, had 100-200 rounds thru it, went to Colorado and passed on a cow elk as I had no tag.....came back, at the range the 2nd shot the bolt handle fell off.

Now if I had been firing at an elk in Colorado and that POS brazed handle had fallen off I would have been hollering loud enough for every person in the state to hear me.

That truly P'od me. Rem fixed it, but get this, they left VALVE GRINDING compound completely filled inside the bolt.
'
They CHOSE without asking me to jewel the bolt as a 'courtesy' and not clean out the bolt, so I (if I had not noticed it) could have pushed the abrasive crap out in front of a bullet down my 500+dollar Hart barrel.

needless to say, Rem burned me good on that one.

Another 700 mountain rifle, defective crown, would not own up to it,,,,,another Classic 6.5x55 with barrel defects 2" from muzzle, others with rough finishes......another with flats instead of rounded receiver....poor finishing.

You get the pic.

Some are good.....some not......depends.

Good platform, but It would NOT be my pick if I had to pick one rifle to go to the back country for the rest of my life without any tools, parts, or gunsmith.

Just MY experience. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by CDH:
...I have a brand new M77 MKII and I can assure you that it is not a 2 stage M98 style trigger.

Hey CDH, Is the one on your rifle adjustable for Weight of Pull, Sear Engagement and Overtravel?

The non-adjustable two-stage trigger is what has kept me from even bothering to look at Rugers for a lot of years. They always have been strong rifles and fairly well made.

quote:

Hey CDH, Is the one on your rifle adjustable for Weight of Pull, Sear Engagement and Overtravel

I haven't taken it out of the stock yet to eyeball it and figure out the easiest way to tune it, but it really is decent out of the box. I suspect from looking at the diagram/parts list it will require spring swapping and polishing to tune...no little adjustment screws and nuts like my M70!

Hot Core

The standard Ruger trigger is non adjustable and single stage . The V/T models are the ones with the double stage trigger , they are adjustable and they are a very nice trigger , in spite of the double stage . Mine has a super nice let off about 2 lbs. after the slack take up , right out of the box .

The model 700 Remington always have been at the top with me. I have no complaints with the 700's.