The thread about the effectivness of a 3006 loaded with 220 gr. bullets made me wonder about how much more one could get out of a 300H&H topped with a high quality 220 gr bullet.

Go easy on me because I'm a relative new-guy. Guess what I am really asking is how much more effective would a 300 H&H be loaded with a high quality 220 gr bullet and the max powder over a 3006 with a max load and the same bullet.

Thanks for your patience.

Depends on your definition of significant.

Using a 200 Nosler Accubond QL calls the max for the 30-06 to be around 2700 loaded to 63,000 the H&H is 2900 at the same pressure.

the 200fps equates to the difference in point blank range of 335yd for the 06 and 358 for the H&H. Using the zero to give max PBR the 06 is -34" at 500yds the H&H -27 the 06 hits 8% lighter but still 1979 ft lbs.

Never loaded for the 06 with a 200 but I know I can reach 2900 with my 308Norma which is basically the same case volume as the H&H.

Don't want to step on anyones toes but for me the difference you see between the 06 based cases and the next line of magnums is more on paper than in the real world. The magnum makes many feel better when they pull the trigger. It will not turn a bad placed shot into a good one.

I shoot 220 gr. Sierra RN in my 300 H&H. Never have shot a 220 gr. in a 30/06. I like shooting the 220 gr. out of my 300 H&H. POI is about 3 incher lower than the 165 gr. bullets that I normally shoot at 100 yards.

In my experience I'd have to say that ramrod340's estimate of 200 fps difference between the two cartridges is a good guess.

That's about the amount of velocity that such a bullet loses in 85 to 100 yards of travel, so you can say that the .300 H&H hits with the same velocity and energy at about 300 yards as the .30-06 does at 200 yards. That seems significant, but not necessarily the difference in success and failure in most instances. But guess which I'd prefer to have in my hands when eyeing a six-point bull elk across a 350-yard wide canyon?

Thanks for the info. I have a couple of 06's and a 300 H&H and I'm trying to maximize my battery so as to get the most out of each rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Depends on your definition of significant.


Never loaded for the 06 with a 220 but I know I can reach 2900 with my 308Norma which is basically the same case volume as the H&H.

Ramrod,

What load you using for your .308 Norma, and how long is your barrel?

Thanks,

AS posted by Nosler's Chief Ballistician here a few years ago, you can't get enough 4831SC in an 06 case to exceed SAAMI pressure specs...

quote:

Ramrod,

What load you using for your .308 Norma, and how long is your barrel?

My appology. I misread QL the calculations including the ballistics were all on the 200gr Accubond not a 220gr. Would be rather difficult since Nosler doesn't make a 220gr accubond.


If I had taken the time to pull my 308Norma loads and not run from a swiss cheese memory. It would have been obvious. I have two 200gr bullet loads that my best accuracy was above 2900. NOT 220gr.

Since I'm not longer setting speed records sactoller you are probably no longer interested but my 308Norma is a 24" Chamber is cut to allow me to seat out to 3.38". Both loads happen to be with MRP. I have not tried them with RL-22 to see I can get similar results. 200gr Partion 73.8grs of MRP gives 2948 from my rifle. 220gr Accubond 72grs of MRP give 2920. Just looking at the Norma site they list 71.6-72.8grs as max for the 200grs they have listed but the COL is a little shorter.

If you shoot your rifle in practice out to the distance you are will to shoot hunting and know the drop of your bullet I still see the magnum advantage is on paper. 20yds of PBR or 7" less drop at 500 yards won't make much difference in the real world.

quote:

AS posted by Nosler's Chief Ballistician here a few years ago, you can't get enough 4831SC in an 06 case to exceed SAAMI pressure specs...

seafire did he reference a bullet weight in that comment? Reason I ask looking TOTALLY AT QL calculations when you get to 200+gr bullets calculations show 63-65,000 with only a 6-8% compression.

His comment seems like a heck of a blanket statement.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
AS posted by Nosler's Chief Ballistician here a few years ago, you can't get enough 4831SC in an 06 case to exceed SAAMI pressure specs...

Oh yes you can. 62 gr H4831SC under a 190 gr Hornady SPBT at 2739 fps (24" barrel)in WW cases runs 66,400 psi(M43) in one rifle and 64,700 psi(M43) in a 24" M70. I used to use 61 gr H4831SC under the Speer 200 gr SP in a M721 at 2680 fps but no longer have that rifle to psi test it. One can assume the psi is right up there though.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Oh yes you can. 62 gr H4831SC under a 190 gr Hornady SPBT at 2739 fps (24" barrel)in WW cases runs 66,400 psi(M43) in one rifle and 64,700 psi(M43) in a 24" M70.

While that certainly exceeds SAAMI specs......I wouldn't be afraid to use such a load!

quote:

While that certainly exceeds SAAMI specs......I wouldn't be afraid to use such a load

I've always felt if you have a modern rifle and the 25-06, 270 and now the 338-06A Square are all loaded to 65,000 no reason not to take the other 06 based cases to the same limit.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

AS posted by Nosler's Chief Ballistician here a few years ago, you can't get enough 4831SC in an 06 case to exceed SAAMI pressure specs...

seafire did he reference a bullet weight in that comment? Reason I ask looking TOTALLY AT QL calculations when you get to 200+gr bullets calculations show 63-65,000 with only a 6-8% compression.

His comment seems like a heck of a blanket statement.

I've fired lots of (regular) H4831 in '06's with 180 grain bullets and while that statement holds with H4831 and probably also holds with H4831 SSC when using 180 grain and lighter bullets, I'm certain that I would be popping primers if I loaded all the 4831 SSC you could get under a 220 grain Nosler Partition, particularly since the magazines of several of my '06's are 3.6" long and allow very long bullet seating.

I think that there needs to be some qualification on that statement.

Again, pardon my lack of experience but it seems lile you can get quite a bit more powder in a 300 H&H case than you can a standard 06 so I guessed I was assuming that one could get the 300 to outperform the 06, especially shooting 200-220 gr bullets.

quote:

In my experience I'd have to say that ramrod340's estimate of 200 fps difference between the two cartridges is a good guess.

Once again, assuming you define "outperform" as yielding a higher velocity with the same bullet weight, then your assumption about the .300 H&H is correct.

If by "outperform" you mean that game will be successfully taken with one and not with the other, then that is not necessarily the case.

The one with the higher velocity will allow you to shoot over a slightly longer range without the necessity of adding holdover. It will also very slightly reduce bullet drift due to crosswind. And, it will deliver higher energy at more distant yardage. All of these provide a measurable, but slight, advantage in taking larger game. The disadvantage of the faster cartridge is that it will deliver a bit more recoil in the same weight gun and, all things being equal, a smaller cartridge is usually a bit more conducive to good accuracy (although the variations in the rifles and ammunition is more important to accuracy than the inherent accuracy potential of the cartridges.)

There is no "bright line" at which a .300 H&H is adequate when a .30-06 is not. However, as the size of the quarry and/or the distance of the shot increases, the .300 H&H begins to provide more margin in its performance.

quote:

Originally posted by Doublegun:
Thanks for the info. I have a couple of 06's and a 300 H&H and I'm trying to maximize my battery so as to get the most out of each rifle.

I just reread your second post and think perhaps you may be looking at how to make your .30-06 and .00 H&H cover different types of game and hunting. Here would be my advice:

Load the .30-06 with generally lighter bullets (150-165 grains) and use it for the smaller big game species like whitetails and pronghorn. You can push the 150 up to 3,000 fps with the '06, making it a very effective longer-range medium game rifle.

Load your .300 H&H with heavier bullets in the 180-200 grain range and use it for larger game like elk and moose. This will provide you with adequate range and power for such species.

While you can effectively load the heavier bullets in the '06 to take large game, and can similarly load light bullets in the .300 to make it a long-range screamer for light game, each cartridge is more appropriately suited (in the instance where you have one gun for each) to the opposite roles.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Oh yes you can. 62 gr H4831SC under a 190 gr Hornady SPBT at 2739 fps (24" barrel)in WW cases runs 66,400 psi(M43) in one rifle and 64,700 psi(M43) in a 24" M70.

While that certainly exceeds SAAMI specs......I wouldn't be afraid to use such a load!

You are correct, however my post was to reflect on the quote regarding SAAMI psi for the '06 which is 60,000 psi. It is my elk hunting load in the late M70 Classic Sporter. The action is also made in the magnum cartridges of which that psi is within SAAMI limits. One could argue the mwerits of different brass but that dog doesn't hunt because Winchester uses the same brass for the .270 as for the '06 and most every other similar cartridge. I assume other manufacturers do the same. The SAAMI PMAP for the 270 and most modern magnums is 65,000 psi.

BTW; I've killed 2 elk with that load (one at 25 yards and the other at 478 yards) and that 190 Hornady SPBT gave excellent performance at both ranges.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Ramrod,

What load you using for your .308 Norma, and how long is your barrel?

My appology. I misread QL the calculations including the ballistics were all on the 200gr Accubond not a 220gr. Would be rather difficult since Nosler doesn't make a 220gr accubond.


If I had taken the time to pull my 308Norma loads and not run from a swiss cheese memory. It would have been obvious. I have two 200gr bullet loads that my best accuracy was above 2900. NOT 220gr.

Since I'm not longer setting speed records sactoller you are probably no longer interested but my 308Norma is a 24" Chamber is cut to allow me to seat out to 3.38". Both loads happen to be with MRP. I have not tried them with RL-22 to see I can get similar results. 200gr Partion 73.8grs of MRP gives 2948 from my rifle. 220gr Accubond 72grs of MRP give 2920. Just looking at the Norma site they list 71.6-72.8grs as max for the 200grs they have listed but the COL is a little shorter.

If you shoot your rifle in practice out to the distance you are will to shoot hunting and know the drop of your bullet I still see the magnum advantage is on paper. 20yds of PBR or 7" less drop at 500 yards won't make much difference in the real world.

Was just looking for more loads...I love my Norma!

quote:

Was just looking for more loads...I love my Norma

I like mine as well along with it's big sister the 358Norma My 308 loves the accubonds and MRP powder. What I have found is my rifle likes to run about a gr or two hotter than the max list on the Norma site. Then again my COL usually longer