Hello all,
First, I would like to say that I have enjoyed readind so many of everyone's posts and look forward to reading more. But I am having a problem that I cannot seem to figure out, so I thought I might get some 'seasoned' advice.

My big game rifle is a Rem 660 in 308win. I bought it off of a buddy of mine for $50 when I got out of the army. I have now gotten into reloading, with the hopes of improving the rifle's accuracy. So far, I have yet to be able to get it to shoot a tight(MOA or less) 5-shot group. I have managed a few times to shoot right at MOA with factory ammo though. Could the fact that the barrel is so short have an effedt? Also, what would be the 'life expectancy' of this factory barrel? I know that it has had at least 10,000 rounds through it. Has the thoat been worn out? How could I tell? Should I get a new barrel? I am sorry for rambling on, but I just do not know what to do and need help. Thanks.

Jerry

the easiest way i found to get group size to shrink is to move the target closer.

btw 50 bucks what a buy. its possible the barrel could be worn out. if you want to rebarrel it sometimes you can get 28 or 30 inch target barrels that are worn out, get the first and last 2" of the barrel cut off and rechamber it to 308 win again.

Have you ever cleaned the barrel with some copper-solvent like Forrest Foam? Do that first untill the foam comes out white, not blue.
but exspect the first 3 shots to be not accurate after such a cleaning...

Klaus

give it a good clean, then check all screws are tite, including all the mounts, get a good steady rest, use good consistant loads.
have you worked up a load for this gun?
its kinda pointless if the barrel is fouled or screws are loose etc....
with better groups outta factory, your loads maby not compatable with the gun my 308 likes 150 grain projectiles and 180s but some dont like the 180s, spray them everyware.
10000 rounds in a 308 is up there but depending on the gun it may still shoot well.
greg

Metau, I would give the rifle a good cleaning with something like wipe out. If you don't have a bore guide, get one.
Check the scope rings & mount to make sure nothing is loose. I would then look at the action screws, make sure the are snug. If you have a way to measure the torque on them, I would make sure that they are even at about 40 to 60 inch pounds. MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE USING INCH POUNDS. These are all things that you can do without costing you anything.
The next thing I would look at is the throat. Bore scopes are very expensive & unless you know what to look for, may not tell you much. I have never used one, but I would venture to guess that to a novice a brand new barrel may look rough through a bore scope.
I like to use the Stoney Point over all length gauge & comparator. I can get a pretty good idea of what kind of throat erosion a rifle has by using these tools. This is not a hard & fast rule because I have been hearing about a lot of factory rifles that are long throated.
Using different bullet weights measure the length to the lands. If you cannot get any of the bullets to touch the lands then there is a pretty good chance that the throat of your barrel is in bad shape. At this point I would seek out a good gunsmith & have them check out your rifle to confirm this. There is a chance that they may be able to set the barrel back & recut the chamber.
Another thing that you may want to do, especially if you have the barrel set back, is have the barrel recrowned.
Start with checking to make sure everything is tight. If you have another scope that you can swap, that may be another thing to try.
Welcome to the A.R. forums.

quote:

My big game rifle is a Rem 660 in 308win. I bought it off of a buddy of mine for $50 when I got out of the army. I have now gotten into reloading, with the hopes of improving the rifle's accuracy. So far, I have yet to be able to get it to shoot a tight(MOA or less) 5-shot group. I have managed a few times to shoot right at MOA with factory ammo though. Could the fact that the barrel is so short have an effedt? Also, what would be the 'life expectancy' of this factory barrel? I know that it has had at least 10,000 rounds through it. Has the thoat been worn out?

First of all, you got a real bargain on the rifle. If you can get around MOA with factory ammo, I would bet you could do better with reloaded ammo (my favorite powder for the 308 being IMR 4064). Since 308 handgun barrels can shoot less than 1 MOA, I would conclude that a short barrel is not your problem though if it has had 10,000 rounds through it, throat erosion could be significant.

I would have a gunsmith check the gun. If the throat is too eroded, I would have a new barrel put on it.

I would suggest we need more info on your loads. What bullet are you using, what powder, primer, and how far off the lands are the bullets seated. Most rifles shoot better with the bullets just off the lands it may be that you could seat the bullets out a little and tighten up those groups. Scope mounts and action info above is what to check first though.

Find a gunsmith or machine shop that is capable of measuring the diameter of the bore and grooves at the chamber end as well as at the muzzle of the rifle. While they are at it, also measure the diameter of the chamber neck area and the headspace. If they find any of the following there is little point in continuing with this barrel. You can experiment and fiddle as much as you like and spend $$$$$$$$$$$ shooting away components and it will remain a dog.

1. Bore and/or groove diameter larger at the muzzle than at the chamber end.
2. Maximum groove diameter = 0.3091"
3. Maximum bore diameter = 0.3012"
4. Maximum chamber neck diameter = 0.3461"

5. If the bolt closes on a no-go headspace gauge and the above are all ok, it can be fixed and there is no need to scrap the barrel.

IMO, this dilemma suggests a whole bunch of variables, any combination of which would diagnose the problem. Yes, the barrel may have been shot out. Are screws on the scope mounts tight? Is the barrel itself touching the stock? When was the last time it was cleaned? Maybe the barrel twist is different than that which the reloading manual did its testing? Distance between the rifling and the bullet? Bullet seating depth? Etc....With so many variables, it's hard to narrow it down. I would start with the rifle itself to make sure everything physical is up to snuff. Then move on to ammo. Good luck, it may take a while.

In my experience there are 3 things that are the usual suspects when a rifle won't group.
1. Dirty bore
2. Scope trouble
3. Something loose

Remedies:
1. Even if you think you clean the rifle think again most people just don't put enough effort into it, read up on the subject and get to it.

2. You think you have a good scope but maybe it isn't, use a proven scope that shoots tight groups on another rifle.

3. Check everything for "proper" tightness. This doesn't mean that you have to crank every screw down as tight as you can and nearly break them. Start by stripping the rifle down take the action out of the stock, take the scope, rings and bases off this is great when you are about to do a severe cleaning. Then re-assemble it and check everything as you go.

Usually the last 2 things are bedding issues and the barrel being shot out would be a last check item on my list.
I've bought many rifles that "just don't shoot good anymore" and every one was fixed by correcting one of the above problems. Some will jump right to the bedding but I like to go through the above list first and I've always found that it works.
Good luck and tell us your results.

If you have a lightweight older factory gun that will shoot 5 shot groupsunder 1.5" consistantly, "Don't worry, be happy." That is very good and in the field up to over farther than you should shoot is perfectly acceptable. Remember that even a 2" gun is only 3" from point of aim at 300yds! capt david

metau, some interesting feedback so far, but WHOA!
We probably need a little more info to help mo better.

First things first, around MOA is basically 1" at 100 yards. If you have fired 5 shot groups that are close to an inch at 100 yards with factory ammo that is DAMN good. Despite everyone in cyberspace seeming to have guns that shoot better than MOA, that is usually BS.
On this forum there are a lot of hard-corp gun cranks, and if you work up a load for a rifle, sub-moa is pretty easily achievable, but for your rifle, with 10,000 shots or so through it, like Grumulkin said, if it does 1.5" be happy!

10,000 is a lot of rounds, and your barrel could definitely be on the way out, if not just toast. A lot of good info about how to calculate that already posted, I'd just get it to a gunsmith.

Another question is, what kind of sighting system are you using, and what kind of rest etc. are you using to shoot your test targets. If you have a good stable bench, rest, and sighting system, MOA or sub MOA are reasonable goal, if your shooting off of a makeshift setup, or using a low power scope, or something less for sighting, than MOA is a lofty goal. Don't let anybody bullshit you, good optics, good rests, and especially good loads tailored to your rifle, are just as big a difference as NASCAR, and a stock car from the local dealer.

I hear all the time at various shops about these guys who shoot MOA groups with iron sights, usually off a prop 'from a tree or something' and when you see these guys at the range, they can't shoot an 8" group with a scoped rifle, much less with irons. It's all relative.

You sound like you are a good shot, achieving the results you are with factory ammo, and a real 'experienced' rifle. Let us know a little more info, and we probably can give you a little better help, or at least let you know if you are already at the pinnacle!

Good luck--Don

I had a Rem 660 in 308, my son has it now. I found that it's favorite bullet's were 165gr and then 180 gr. IMR 4064 and IMR 3031 worked good as any but BLC#2 and W748 also worked well.

A good cleaning might help, won't hurt and 10,000 rds sounds like a lot for a 660. It's not generally used except for a hunting rifle. I would be suprized if it had more than 4 or 5 thousand rounds thru it and at that I think it's might be high, real high. The short barrel will probally inhance it's accuracy as that was a fairly heavy barrel to begin with and the shorter it is, the stiffer it is. Mine regularly grouped just under 1" @ 100yds and that's more than needed for a hunting rifle.

Another question I have for is how are you measuring your groups? Most of the time groups are measured center to center. Which means that you take the measurement from the widest point in the group, measured from the outside of one hole to the outside of the other. Then subtract the diameter of the bullet, with a 308 subtract .308 from what you measured. For example, if your group measures 1.308" outside to outside of the two widest bullet holes. You would subtract .308 & have a 1" group center to center.
When I first started this a few years ago I was not aware that center to center was how you should measure a group.
I have a Rem 700 LTR in 308, it has a 20" barrel. I have gotten several groups under 1" from that rifle without doing anything to the rifle. I bought the rifle used & I suspect that the trigger has been adjusted.
The groups have been between 3/8" to 3/4" for the most part. I have some that were well over an inch.
The rifle has a 3x9-40 Nikon buckmaster scope, not the top of their line nor does it have a very high magnification.
I have only tried Sierra 168gr Matck Kings & RL-15 powder so far. The best group I have fired so far has been .353" from a concrete shooting bench, using an Uncle Bud Bulls Bag & a rear rest of some kind, a very sturdy set up. My point is that you can receive very good accuracy from a short barrel. The velocity on the other hand, leaves something to be desired. I think on that particular day, with that load, I was only getting 2100 - 2200fps. I don't have my notes with me, but I do remember that was the starting load in the Sierra manual.
I am also pretty sure that my rifle has no where near the round count yours has either.

As was said, it ain't broke. MOA, or close to it, with a factory rifle and factory stock?

By all means, clean the barrel, chamber, bolt lug recesses, and make sure bases, rings and action screws are properly tightened.

Just don't expect any meaningful improvement. If it happens, wonderful, but moa for five? You have a good thing. JMO, Dutch.

The primers DO make a difference -- some rifles (I've had a few Remingtons in this group) seem to prefer cooler primers -- which Remington's primers seem to be.

Dan