Two weeks to MT big game opener so I decided to check zero on a few rifles , plus a few friends were headed over to do the same thing.

One has a very well done Rem 700 in .270 Win, Douglas barrel, 3.5-10 Leupold, HS Precision drop in stock,etc. He really had a hard time getting it sighted in. The scope adjustments were all over, which is surprising with a quality scope. he would be real close to +2" at 100 yds , adjust a little and move the group off the paper. He finally got it +2" at 100, then it grouped +5" high at 200 yds!!

Another has a newer Win .30-06, same deal, a good scope and it too was all over the place. Finally got it sighted, let it cool and its first shot would print 2" low, every time from a cold barrel. The next shots would group well but 2 inches or more higher than the first shot. Even both of their spare rifles had to be re zeroed from last year. Close, but a few inches off of their preffered +2" high at 100 yds.

Even one of mine that is a good shooter had me swearing. Thankfully my .280 Ultra Lt Wt was spot on as always and my .375 H&H followed suit as well.

This whole day got me thinking....... Maybe one or two, truly repeatably accurate rifles are better than an entire stable of decent shooters that a guy has to fool with from year to year.
Anyone feel the same??

It got me toying with selling a few of my "problem children" and having someone very competant build me ONE good rifle. Something that shoots to the same spot, ALL THE TIME. Year in year out.

Does such an animal exist??

FN in MT

I had similar problems a couple of years ago with a Ruger. I retightened the action screws and changed out the scope. Have had no more problems. That is probably the simple solution. But why would you keep a rifle that is not consitently accurate?
As an aside, I have a friend who bought a mod 70 and a Weaver(?) Scope in 1974. He has not cleaned the rifle or re-zeroed it in years. It still shoots where he set it. It is his only bolt action rifle. Maybe there is somethig to be said for just one good shooting rifle

Frank,
Yes the animal does exist. Go see Dennis Erhardt. He fixed my problem

Frank, yes, consistent rifles do exist.

If you want one good rifle, get in touch with D'Arcy Echols and have him build you one of his fiberglass-stocked "Legend" rifles. I've gone through a lot of rifles over the years, but I haven't used anything as good as Echols' product - not even close to it. These rifles feed and function perfectly, shoot like varmint rifles, and I've never had a change of zero.

AD

Allen day-A lot of other gunbuilders also build a consistant rifle and do it for a lot less money.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank Nowakowski: "One has a very well done Rem 700 in .270 Win, Douglas barrel, 3.5-10 Leupold, HS Precision drop in stock,etc. He really had a hard time getting it sighted in. The scope adjustments were all over, which is surprising with a quality scope. he would be real close to +2" at 100 yds , adjust a little and move the group off the paper. He finally got it +2" at 100, then it grouped +5" high at 200 yds!! "

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Is this a scope problem or a rifle problem?

There is very little information on these subjects. The only thing for certain here is that allen is back with his panacea.

Gentleman,

Regarding the drop in HS stock on the .270 Rem 700... My initial tought was that he had the action screws too tight, that wasn't the problem. We took the action out of the stock and his is doing the same thing my HS did in a 700 action; the bottom of the action is only seating on the edges of the aluminum bedding block. The cure is a skim of glass on the bedding block. My rifle stopped grouping round groups and would do these little horizontal ones instead. So a skim of glass is the proposed fix.

SCOPES were also touched on, we even switched out Charlies 3-9 and installed one of my 3-9 Leupolds, it helped the situation with smaller groups but his rifle STILL puts the first shot low and slightly left, then subsequent shots group properly. Not a big deal, but annoying.

NONE of the problems were insurmountable, just ANNOYING. It's days like yesterday that get me thinking of building one or two absolutely perfect hunting rifles. The funny thiing is as I had that thought, Allen Day and his Echols rifles immediately came to mind. . Allen and I shared an SAA flight to RSA back in 2000 and he REALLY likes those Echols rifles. The big question??? WHAT to build?? I would probably do a .300 Win mag or .338 mag as my all arounder. I already have a repeatably accurate .280 Rem, in my Wby Ultra Lt weight.

Over .40,

I know Arnold VERY well, he does most all of the small amount of work I farm out. He built my .338-06 M70 for me and did a few others over the years as well. Arnold is just a MASTER. You know all the Capital Sports characters then I take it? Tom Brownlee and I are good friends.

Gents....... Thanks for the concern. But I'm feeling much better today. The wave of "gun building hysteria" seems to have passed.

FN in MT

[ 10-14-2002, 23:10: Message edited by: Frank Nowakowski ]

Stubblejumper: "Less money", you say?

Yes, you're right, you can indeed pay less money than what D'Arcy charges for a consistent rifle. I've been there, and I've owned 'em and I own 'em. You'll pay less money alright, and you'll get less rifle. Rifles are like eveything else in life: You get what you pay for.

Most guys have too much money tied up in too many mediocre rifles that they'll seldom if ever use use; money that would be better spent with one or two really great custom rifles that were built correctly from every standpoint of consideration - not just a consistently tight cluster of wholes on a piece of paper off of a bench.

Heck, you can buy yourself a Browning A-Hole or a Savage 110 and achieve that much..........

AD

Allen....are you by any chance a descendent of Marie Antonette? You obvious distain for any rifle that isn't made by Darcy is right of there with Marie's comment of "let them eat cake." I've seen and been around a lot of gun snobs but you are truly in a class by yourself.

Bill, save the insults for someone who's interested. I'm not........

AD

That was a compliment!

Allen-I will pay what is necessary to have a rifle made that is consistantly accurate,has a smooth action a good trigger and functions totally reliably.I will not pay a great deal more to have rifle made by a builder with a big reputation as I require a rifle to hunt with not a status symbol.

Frank,
Yes, Tom and Dave treat me very well. I was talking about Arnolds brother Dennis tho. Good luck with your rifles and also on opening day

Stubblejumper...... A "status symbol" ? Now I'm convinced that you're not at all familiar with the product in question, nor with my personal MO....

Bill..... A "compliment"????? Go bullshit somebody else!

AD

You guys need to stop messing with allen,you'll have him crying rivers pretty soon and then he'll threaten to leave like he did over at HA.

You've gotta love those legend rifles, Where else can you spend 6 grand for a model 70 that you provided the action for,with a hard to find fiberglass stock and special contour kreiger barrel and 20 dollars worth of innovation magazine box. All of the above is assembled during a full moon. Their just ain't too many of these fuckers in captivity.

Just my personal opinion, but if I had the money available I would jump at the chance to own one of Darcy's rifles. Some appreciate his work and some don't. No harm in that.

RMK, as far as I'm concerned, you're just another hate-filled chickenshit who strikes from the sidelines, and everyone here knows just how insecure and angry you really are..........

What is it about your life that you hate so much, anyway?

ADE

Okay...

What you're wanting is a consistent rifle, one that holds POI year in, year out.

That calls for a sturdy scope, but that doesn't mean an expensive one. I have a early Mannlicher-Schoenauer with a Griffin & Howe side mount holding a Weaver K6 that hasn't had the turrets touched in years. It shoots the same 1/2 to 3/4 MOA groups 2" high at 100 yards every time I try it.

My 1972 Remington 700 ADL 30-06 with its Leupold Vari X II is incredibly consistent in the respect you seek. I only adjust the elevation turret for making shots in the varmint field. (Yes, I varmint hunt with 270's and '06's!)

Decent scope, decent scope mount and rings... Should be easy enough.

Now, be sure your rifle is glass bedded. I like the barrel to be free floated, but that isn't really necessary with a well fitting stock. Depending on the level of accuracy you need, you may even be able to skip the glass bedding, but that's such an easy an inexpensive and beneficial thing to do, it makes good sense to do it.

It isn't necessary to buy a custom rifle to get consistent performance. If that's what you desire, no problem--a man should be able to enjoy the fruits of his labor. Just don't be deceived--factory rifles can be made to turn in boringly consistent MOA and better groups, year after year.

It's like the gold Rolex watch. The gold Rolex watches are great! They're beautiful, hold their value incredibly well, and, well, they keep pretty good time.

However, a stainless steel Rolex is every bit as good for the presumed purpose--telling the time! The movement is the same as you'll find in the gold one. A stainless Rolex Submariner runs about 3800 dollars, but the gold one is way over ten grand, approaching 15 thousand with certain options. But again, the movement inside is the same one you'll get in the stainless model.

Function does indeed dictate form, but don't confuse function with "fondle factor."

Dan Newberry
green 788

I would humbly suggest that a rifle's ability to sustain a zero season to season is dependent upon the stability of its stock. A wooden stock is more likely to change than a synthetic. A wooden stock that is not well sealed is almost guaranteed to change. However, a well beded rifle should be capable to being adjusted quickly. However, that having been said, I have picked up a generally good shooting rifle and have its scope go crazy. There is nothing to do but re-scope and send the defective scope off for repair. According to my 'smith, a Leupold that has been sent back to the factory for repair is the most reliable scope you can own. I'll go with that.

I am certain D'Arcy Echols makes a wonderful rifle. I have several rifles which have been make for me for the cost of a single one of his Legend rifles. Each of them is accurate, functions reliably, and was finished within 60 days of the order being placed. All hold their zero within acceptable limits. (The syn stocks don't change their zero. The wooden stocks may require adjustment, but they too stay remarkable stable including full stock models.) Ku-dude

If you have replaced (not tightened or adjusted) the scope and mounts, then the problem may very well be the HS stock in combination with the Model 700. EVERY HS drop-in stock I have seen had to have the aluminum bedding lapped round, just like a scope mount, so the action fits evenly. They are nowhere close to round and when you tighten the action into them, it just binds the action. I have never had one shoot accurately with a 700 even if it was glass bedded, if it was not lapped round first.

Allen.....what can I say except ..."pfhttt!"

Larrys,

My drop in shot pretty good, the only problem was I no longer had small round groups, they were small horizontal groups. My gunsmith roughed up the aluminum and put just a skim of Brownells bedding compound front and rear. It now shoots fine.

HOW does one LAP the bedding block?? Sounds like it would be a better fix. Charlies rifle absolutely shows that the action is hitting only on the sides of the bedding block and little if even at all on the bottom.

Thanks,

Frank N.

I have HS stocks on four rifles, and they each required a skim of bedding, as mentioned. I've never tried the lapping idea, but it sounds like it would work. A small cylinder the same diameter as the Reminton action and some lapping compund would seem to do the job in a sort time. I'll have to try this on the next HS I bed. Thanks for the idea. - Dan

Dan,

My Rem 700 action is 1.430" in diameter. I found a piece of hardwood that is exactly 1.420" in diameter. with a piece of abrasive cloth its exactly the right size. I ran this back and forth on Charlies gun and it REALLY helped a bunch. His groups are about half of what they were and starting to look somewhat round now. I think he is going to have it glassed though.

His was absolutely only touching on maybe 1/16" on the sides of the action. The lapping made a huge difference.

I still have a few feet of hardwood left if you want a 10" piece?

FN in MT

Sure Frank, I'll take it. What do you want for it? Let me know. Thanks - Dan

Ir sure does exist. I had a Mannlicher-Schoenauer .270 carbine that I zeroed in in 1964 when I bought it, and it held the same point of impact for the next 23 years, until I foolishly traded it.....

I had the worst day at the saturday anyone could have. Went over to do some last minute practice with my rifles. That went great. When i was leaving there was two guys and their wives shooting handguns in bay three. I waved as i went by. Three minutes later from the highway i looked back an seen them trying to put out a fire. I turned around and went back. When i pulled up it was out of control and headed up the mountain. I called 911 to report it and call out DNRC. Well, two hours later it was out. I don't know how it got started, i have an idea, but no proof. I sure hope we still have a range when all is said an done.

The biggest moron I know of at the range is my own father-in-law. Total idiot, but the biggest "expert" at the range. just the fact that he was in the "big one" (WWII) makes him an expert on all kinds of firearms, no matter what it is (or what he thinks it is). The worst part is he is the range officer for this club, and has "official NRA training" to make him the expert he is on marksmanship (I believe the training was for *safety* only, but he'd never admit it). Told me I couldn't shoot my M1A one day because its a "machine gun" and couldn't be used there and didn't even want it there because it was illegal for me to have..where did I get it anyway..I'm such an idiot! This guy's more opinionated than Ralph Kramden. Someone take pity on me, please.

Wryfox,

I have found that the more difficult the father, the sweeter the daughter. I know it is that way for me.

Frank,
Where the heck did you find a Remington with a diameter of 1.430"? The largest I have ever seen was a 40x which was 1.365". Regards, Bill.

Yeah, the daughter's a sweetheart. I just put up with old fart and she loves me for it..she knows him. Just caught her looking over my shoulder while typing this..she's chuckling.

I have one of those, "always on no matter what" rifles. It is a box stock 700 ADL .30-06 that I bought used in 1982 with a 2x-7x Weaver in Leupold rings. It shoots anything I stick in it around an inch. Some a little under, some a little over. The only thing I've done is bring the trigger pull down to 3 lbs.

If memory sreves me, I paid $215 for it...in a hard case.

I've collected a few other rifles since then, but it doesn't seem to matter which one I hunt with, or for what I hunt, the 700 always goes along as a back-up. It's kinda like taking an old friend along.

Fast Ed

Why is everybody down on Allen lately? There is nothing wrong with being loyal to a gun maker that has built you some rifles you are sattisfied with! I would buy an Echols rifle in a heart beat, if he would install iron sights, and Q-detach scope rings, but he won't, it's either irons,or solid mount scope!

Allen is lucky enough to be able to buy, and use what ever rifle he wants, something I, and most of my friends are not, but doesn't that say something that he chooses the Echols, when he could afford a rifle that cost twenty times the price? Something to think about! I'm not sure he is right about gettting what you pay for all the time, though. I know some makers who charge more than Echols, and their rifles are nothing but dolled up 700 Rems, that don't shoot a bit better than a K-mart special!

There are many good makers that charge less, and that "I" consider their product to be as good as an Echols, at half the price, but he can only put out one or two rifles a year. Still I don't think Allen is a snobb, but a person who reacts to being called one, by people who don't know him. I think anyone here would react the same way to a wolf pack, pile on!

I too think there are other rifles other than an Echols, but I see no reason Allen shouldn't reccomend them from his own perspective.


Look at the absolutely "CULT" followers of Harley Davidson, and Weatherby, to even suggest those two are inferior, is to draw the death penalty, and I don't consider either to more than fad junk. At least Allen is backing something of quality!

[ 12-07-2002, 03:44: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Let me add that I have spoken to Allen on the phone , and he is a very nice fellow, even if he is [expensive] bolt action trash. If I was going to use a bolt actioned rifle for dangerous game I would have to try an Echols. Every other bolt actioned dangerous game rifle I have tried, including some "custom" ones has failed to work even a majority of the time. That is why I have gone to Double Rifles, and glad I did. After all HOW MUCH IS YOUR LIFE WORTH. As some one once said [was it Oscar Wilde?] "I have the simplest of taste, I am always satisified with the best." Allen is a fine fellow and knows what works for him. If it works for him it just might work for you too. That is if you are BOLT ACTION TRASH. If not, try a Double Rifle. If you do,you will never leave home without it.

What did allen do to you guys that you feel you can treat him that way.

grow up men

urdubob

Consistant Rifle- how about a good old Savage 110, 30-06 3x 9 Busnell-$315 bucks, that shoots 1" or better when I do my part. Sighted it in +1.5 @ 100yds for 165's- is 3" high for 150s 1/2" for 180's two years ago and it still shoots right there every time! Of course these are reloads tailored to this gun. So why do you need a $2000 rifle to get this kind of performace? Then again it's your money what the hell do I care.

I appreciate the kind words very much.

I can only say this: I've had custom hunting rifles built for the last twenty years by various makers - ever since I was barely out of my teens, still in college, and barely able to support myself, let alone buy rifles.

On these forums, I recommend gunmakers who turn out proven rifles that I know work from my own personal experience, and at a high level of function - stuff that I'd recommend to my best friend. I don't worry about anyone else's budget when I make these recommendations, nor should that be an expectation during such discussions. These things are up to the individual to decide, not me.

I can't write about someone else's favorite gunmaker and give them equal press when I'm unfamiliar with their work and have no experience with it. I have indeed been burned by bad custom work and crooked riflesmiths in the past, and I give no press whatsoever - good or bad - to these people.

These are free and open FORUMS, and if anyone else wants to write about their gunmaker of choice, that's their privilage. I enjoy hearing about other good gunmakers and good custom rifles, no matter who makes them.

I find it odd that expensive double rifles, English long guns of all descriptions, etc. - all of which are quite expensive as a rule - get discussed freely and without a discouraging word for the most part on these forums. Yet, if a good America custom bolt action riflemaker is touted, and the price of his work exceeds anyone's budgetary constraints, then the guy that wrote about that gunmaker is supposed to just shut up and go away.

AD

I agree with Allen even thought this is my first post There is a gunbuilder in Forest Grove, OR the gunshop is called H&K Gunshop and this guy turns out first rate work the work he has done for me and my dad has been top notch. So it does pay sometimes to put a lot of money into a rifle cause in the end it pays versus screwing around with a rifle that won't shoot consistently pouring a ton of money into it and in the end you could of bought a nice custom made rifle.

I agree with NE 450 No. 2. When I need a rifle that works every time and never shifts point of impact, I reach for one of my doubles.

Allen:

In your last paragraph above, you asked what sounded like a serious question concerning the relative aversion to expensive British rifles vs. expensive American custom makers like Darcy Echols (and, I presume, similar makers like David Miller) among posters on this forum. I can't speak for anyone else, but I can give you my own views.

A new magazine rifle from Darcy Echols, David Miller, or say, Westley Richards, William Evans, or Holland & Holland, is, as you observed, nothing if not expensive. When buying a custom rifle, if a guy has the money to pay the rate card, he should, within limits, be able to get what he wants. Within limits, he can from Westley, Evans and Holland. OK, they'll probably insist on wood instead of plastic - that stiff upper lip can only be curled so far. Each has its own semi-standard approach - generally Mauser actions, different variations on the express sight theme, their own proprietary mounts (Hollands looks like a cross between a G & H sidemount and a claw - awful), flag safety or M-70 type, etc. However, if you want an M-70 action, different sights, claw mounts or a tang safety, thats no problem. They won't shove their proprietary stuff down your throat. You can get the same from many continental makers.

Not from Echols or Miller. This is the point that Mac alluded to above, and he got it right. It isn't the money, but the inflexability. Echols and Miller (and many other American "custom" smiths, I'm not picking on those two) are, in my view, semi-custom makers, not custom, and they're militant about it. You get to pay a great deal of money for the joy of ordering THEIR perfect rifle, not yours (unless, of course, your ideas happen to exactly duplicate theirs). They build it one way ONLY. The scope and/or sights issue is a good example. My understanding mirrors Mac's - only proprietary mounts are available and no scope at all on a rifle with sights on it. Also, as I recall, only an M-70 type safety is offered. For me personally, both of those issues are deal breakers. I will never risk another expensive trip on a slick-barreled rifle with a scope in fixed mounts and I HATE M-70 safeties.

I appreciate that you're recommending a smith who builds rifles that you have found to be of exceptional quality. Thats commendable of you, and I concur with your judgement of their quality. However, rifles built to fixed, rigid specifications will only fill a narrow niche. They fit your ideal, but for a lot of us, as Mac pointed out, they just don't.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."