I have been reading a lot of Elmer Keith both by him and others about him. We have all seen the statement that a 175/7mm or 220/30 cal cup and core bullets penetrate like a freight train. Elmer Keith makes it clear in Big Game Rifles and Cartridges that his observation was these bullets were not the best or at least could deliver full length penetration.

Elmer Keith speaks highly of the 333 Jeffery with 300 grain bullets which would have been cup and core during his writing. Of course, the 318 WR being a 330 inch bullet with 250 grain loads get a lot of nostalgic love here. Ballistics for the Jeffery is often quoited at 250 grain bullet at 2500 fps for the Rimless version and 2400 fps for the 250 grain 318 WR.

We know that John F. Burger, James Sutherland (back up rifle to the 577 NE), and the Swedish Gentleman in Portuguese East Africa used the 318 WR, but with solid bullets for heavy game.

Now, we all believe these two cartridges inspired Elmer Keith to move from the 35 caliber to the 33 caliber. Unlike, the hunters on the African Continent Elmer Keith appears to have been addicted to the cup and core soft points of his time.

He took the 333 OKH to Africa stating the 30.06 case was giving him 2500 fps with 250 grain bullets and 2400 fps with 300 grain bullets. I do not believe those velocities.

Elmer Keith using the 333 OKH with 300 grain Kynoch bullets laminates (and I think created the myth of bullet proof animals in the minds of American hunters being widely read by American hunters) that a Gemsbok refused to die to three Kynoch 300 grain bullets. He does not specify if these were soft or solid bullets.

So, why did Elmer Keith have such trouble with his 333 OKH cartridge that more or less duplicated (I bet was a little slower) than the 318 WR and 333 Jeffery that professional ivory and meat hunters had used with confidence? I first suspect that Elmer Keith was using soft nose Kynoch bullets that was universally distrusted and frowned upon (Harry Selby: "The barrel of my 416 was never polluted by a soft nose bullet). However, I cannot declare this as fact as I have never seen it written that Elmer Keith was using soft nose bullets.

What do you guys think. Why did a heavy for caliber, moderate velocity 33 caliber give Elmer Keith poor performance when the performance level was established? Could it simply be Elmer Keith's shooting was not where it needed to be?, poor soft nose bullets?, or does the legend of the 33 caliber 250-300 grain bullet of yesteryear not stand up to the factual reporting of Elmer Keith? The last scenario is highly unlikely given the men who used it to create the legend risked their lives on their rifles and cartridges.

I always took Keith's writing with a large grain of salt. Reading his stuff the idea of taking them from any angle seemed to be the norm for him though I don't remember much about how he shot in Africa. Sometimes I think the Texas heart shot should be better named taking an "Elmer Keith shot".

+2. I've often heard Keith being described as better at shooting the bull than shooting guns.

Keith shot competitively and was reputed to be a very good shot (understatement) with rifle, shotgun, and pistol.
I suspect that doing a lot of elk hunting in the thick timber of Idaho had something to do with his desire for penetration from any angle.

I have no problem believing Keith was a competent shot. I also believe anyone can go through a “slump” for like of a better word.

I more suspect Keith was using soft point Bullets that he abused on less than ideal angles, but that is my guess or inference.

Elmer Keith's concept of ballistics was mostly 1% physics and 99% prejudice and B.S.

His rifle bullets had to be big, long, and heavy in order to be effective. However, he regarded a relatively stubby 240 grain .429" bullet spit out of a .44 Special as something that would kill the largest game like lightning as far away as you could hit it. Yeah, right.

I think it was Bell that talked of his barrel (7x57) that was never polluted by a softnose.
I had the chance to meet Selby and see his .416 when I was in Botswana. He said a softpoint from a .416 was magic for lion.

I know I have seen a secondary gun magazine source that contributed the no soft nose to Selby. I am in awe you got to speak with him . Your conversation is most primary in source.

In the lower 416s did Selby have a preference for his clients in the soft v. soild first shot on buffalo. I assume he was a soiids only man on buffalo.

I would have to dig through a few books, but was not Bell’s best one day bag of Elephant with the 318 WR?

Don't be to awestruck. I was working for Penduka safaris back when old Issak Barnard was running the business. I was with the Kotze cousins I met when we were all in jump school at Ft Benning, they were in the SADF.
Anyway, we stopped for fuel at a little store at the same time as Selby. Very nice guy, very gun savy. We only talked for 20 min or so, as we all had to get a move on, so no long detailed questions.

Keith actually reported he shot 3, the reader can only infer 3 separate, oryx before killing one with 300 grain kynoch bullets.

A caption of him with a kudu killed with the 333 OKH and 300 kynoch says he used soft points.

I think the lessen is you can’t drive a cup and core bullet of the 50-80s from 6 or 5:45 angle.

Big Bores and Big Game 1969.

There are no doubt poor bullets. With so many great choices in premium bullets it's hard to understand why one would use anything else unless you're really poor and a meat hunter, even then Rem CoreLokts will do the job. Even a bad bullet will usually do the job if it's put in the right place.

There is no telling what Keith would come up with, sometimes I think he drank to much koolaid. His claim to riding bucking horses until he bled out the nose and ears is pure BS.

His condemnation of the 30-06 failing on elk that excaped into the park..Come to find out later and by his own admission he was using milsurp solids..and anyone that's hunted much knows the 30-06 is a fine elk rifle..

He shot a bull elk several times in the heart/lung area chased it on foot for I don't know how far then tossed his 250-3000 over the cliff and pulled his trusty 38-40 colt and killed the running el with one shot? At the time I read this I was very young and had killed half a dozen elk thereabouts with the 250-3000 so I wrote him a letter stating I shot a bull elk 5 times in the heart, tossed the old colt 45 with hot Keith handloads, and grabbed my 250 and carefully placed a 87 gr. bullet in its heart for an instant kill..Never heard back!! It never happened btw..

His book is full of suspicious blather..

However I loved reading his book and excerpts and gun magazine stories, he was a great story teller..but I chose to be a Jack O'Connor fan!

Somethng to keep in mind is not all 220 gr. bullets in the 30 calibers or any other calibers long heavy bullets..Sometimes even the heavies have too thin a jacket and come apart like a bomb..

I would steer clear of heavy "cup and core" bullets, I recommend Nosler partitions, Swift, North Forks, corelokts and corelocks new soldered corelokts if I felt a need for heavy bullets..

I use 200 and 220 gr. Nosler Partitions in Idahos black timber elk hunting and Ive use the 7x57 Nosler partition on elk in that stuff as well..both with give you a percentage of pass throughs lengthwise and always into the neck or front shoulders just under the skin..The flat out work..

The Nosler partition has always been the best for me as it expands enough, and quickly, but not so much that it slows the bullet down and stops penetration as some premium bullets tend to do, and by design to expend all the energy inside the carcass, and it works in most cases, but Im no fan of bullets not going out the other side leaving a gapping exit hole. Just two shools of thought on that and its been beat to death by experts and newbies as well..

After seeing pre interlock R/N Hornadys in 175 7mm and 220 30 come apart on 300 lb ish animals I am not a believer.

M/V around 2300/2350 and no big bones hit.

I seem to recall that the old Kynoch softpoints were thought a bit brittle and inclined to break up. However, until the Nosler partitions I don't think there was much other than cup-and-core, except cast lead and European bullets like the H-Mantel.

Despite Ray's complaints, I've found Elmer's outlook positive and a good brake on the trend towards smaller-bore, higher-velocity calibers, which work fine when all goes well, less so when they don't.

His preference for bigger bores and full penetration is particularly applicable to the sambar (Indian elk) we hunt here. They almost always run, with anything other than a head or spine shot, and can easily be lost in the thick bush if there's no blood trail.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:


He took the 333 OKH to Africa stating the 30.06 case was giving him 2500 fps with 250 grain bullets and 2400 fps with 300 grain bullets. I do not believe those velocities.

I had a Rem 700 in 35 When when they first came out and they were 22" barrel.

I got well over 2500 with 250 grain bullets. I also tried the 310 grain Woodleigh and from memory it was at abut 2400 f/s. Yes, I know it is a bigger bore than the 338 but it was also faster than Elmer's claim. Who knows, maybe Elmers 338/06 was doing 2480 with 250s and 2380s with 300s nd he rounded the numbers up.

Brass was also much harder. WW and Rem brass got soft from early 1990s. The old WW brass had a bluish hue on the head and the brass did not have that brass door handle look. My understanding is the brass was made soften show pressure signs would show at lower pressure.

I believe you. All I can get with my 24 inch Winchester is 2450 w 250 partitions.

I have also used 275 grain bullets in the 35 Whelen 24 inch barrel. 2200 FPS was the best I got.

I do not think Keith could have got 2500 FPS from 275 grain bullets in the 35 Whelen or with 300 grain bullets in the 333 OKH. My modern component observation.

I know on 24 Campfire someone reported 2600 FPS with 250 grain Partition. Nosler rated the 250 grain Partition in the Custom loaf no one can get at 2550 FPS. Nosler ammo has always met or exceeded rated velocity in my rifles. However, I submit our powders are better now than the 40-50s.

I was raised on Keith’s teaching. I was not allowed to hunt w anything smaller than 30/06. My uncles and father all used larger calibers.

However, I am convinced the old myth “weight covers bullet construction sins” or “220 grain X cup and core bullet being so heavy will penetrate all the way to heaven” is not accurate.

Give me a 140 grain 277 caliber Accubond over a cup and core heavyweight any day. 5 years ago, I would have said the opposite.

As others have said use a bonded bullet in that 33-up caliber bullet.

That said my two out of three of my largest animals were killed with 270 grain 375 interlocks pushed fast. All shits exited.

I have one of Elmer Keith's .333 okh belted mag rifles .Its a 1917 with a 25 inch barrel made by charlie Oneal in 1943 .I have a bunch of his 300 grain Barnes .333 bullets made by Roy Barnes .They are full copper drawn bullets .His bullets he took to africa on that trip were super soft and that's why they failed .I also have some of the 275 grain speer bullets in .333 that was his favorite long range bullet in this rifle .
I grew up reading Elmer Keith and bought a 338 win mag in 1986 hunted with it 33 years its awesome .He was super smart and way ahead of his time .He helped develop the 357 mag 44 mag 41 mag Winchester model 70 ruger number 1 ruger 77 ruger black hawk and tons more things we still use today .
He shot almost every day and was always thinking how to make rifles better .He was well respected and was asked by many firearm makers to help develop rifles and new calibers .

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Despite Ray's complaints, I've found Elmer's outlook positive and a good brake on the trend towards smaller-bore, higher-velocity calibers, which work fine when all goes well, less so when they don't.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I wish someone prominent today would espouse this to hunters.

MIke,
That blueish hue you refer to is annealing..and it softens the brass, and firing hardens the brass there fore if one anneals his brass will last forever. regardless of the brand it would seem..

Folks, If there is a nickels worth of difference in the .338 Win and the 358 NOrma calibers I'll eat your hat. both excellent cartridges and same for the 35 Whelen and 338-06. and the 9.3x62 ain't no Whelen, its in the .375 H&H category according to my chronograph and my honest loads..

Although Im not usually a fan of cup and core bullets in some calibers I do use them in my 25-35, 30-30, 348 Win, and there are exceptions, I have no problems with Hornadys cup and core, but It has the interlock and it works, same with the Rem corelokt, and Win. power points..The Speer Grand slam is the hardest bullet Ive ever shot on game and damn near foolproof,

the cup and core Ive seen fail time and time again are Hawks, Sierras, and even then if you slow them down enough the perform well enough on smaller PG, deer and perhaps elk. but keep in mind its a changing game from time to time as the bullet companies are continually trying to make a better bullet..

Just some food for thought for ya'll and for myself also..Thinking back years I had lots of bullet failures if you want to call them that, at least most were not pretty little mushrooms, but I don't recall losing but a couple of head of game and that was my lousy shooting btw..

I wouldn't be surprised is 95% of claimed bullet failure was just plain BS, for bad shooting or picking the wrong bullet for the game to be shot..

Thanks, Clayman.

In regard to the velocities Keith claimed to get, I seem to recall he thought it was something to do with duplex loads.

I remember he had some cases with a copper tube inside that took the primer's flame to the front of the case.

I could look it up but am supposed to be doing something else

Elmer did not have a PACT sky screen on his desk to use and did have strong opinions but the folks who seem to have a strong dislike and or disbelief of his writings, have simply avoided all the other history of shooting that backed up Elmer's opinions and his shooting in competition or for exhibition etc. Elmer was strongly tested in his day by other gun writers and such. He stood the test then too. I have used the 275 Speer in the .338 WM at 2450-2500 fps and found it completely able on Elk at oblique angles. I have often said, best cup and core bullet ever in the .338 caliber. The same bullet in the .366 was not a great bullet, not even a good bullet. Opened too fast. would not penetrate at 9.3x62 velocities. Just shows how delicate the balance was / is with Cup and core. It's great to have premium bullets that are available today.