I find myself without a 375 H&H in the battery, and am considering a Sako 75 or Winchester Classic, both in stainless & synthetic. What's the preference?

Biebs,

You said synthetic, but have you seen the 85 Kodiak with a laminate stock? Looks pretty good.

That said, I still think I'd go with the Winchester by a tiny margin. Probably have overblown value of CRF in my own mind and I had an inaccurate Sako 7mm Mag once, while all my Winchesters have been accurate, and more accurate with other than their favorite load. Plus Sako had that problem with Stainless barrels several years back.

Got it, thanks for your thoughts.

The only choice is Winchester.

I'm pretty impressed with the new Winchesters too.

The old Sako L61R, at least, was a full-length magnum action and I've never had a problem with its push-feed in 40 years. None of their models have ever had a proper bolt shroud, however, one that covers the left lug runway. IMHO a rifle should not only be safe but look safe.

The Winchester has CRF, on the other hand, and is a rifle with a long reputation for reliability and safety, well-respected in Africa.

M70 and doubly so in the synthetic as no recoil lug on the barrel under the rear sight.

For me, the Sako is out because of the tapered dovetail mounts. Even Sako knows that does not work which is why they have a recoil stop notch in the rear dovetail.

PF would not worry me as I prefer it to CRF. Although CRF sort of goes with the 375.

Lastly, the M70 just goes hand in hand with the 375. If Winchester had not introduced the M70 in 375 then today the 375 might just be some obscure calibre like the 404, 416 Rigby etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
For me, the Sako is out because of the tapered dovetail mounts. Even Sako knows that does not work which is why they have a recoil stop notch in the rear dovetail.

There's nothing wrong with Sako's tapered-dovetail scope mount system. In fact, it works extremely well. The notch in the rear dovetail has no function whatsoever in handling recoil, but is there simply to allow precise positioning of the scope and rings after removal and re-installation without loss of zero. The Leupold ringmounts made for the Sako dovetail don't have the lug that would drop into the notch and so don't employ the notch at all, and many Sako owners file that lug off the rear ring to allow more flexibility in placement of the scope. It is the tapered dovetail and the clamping force of the rings that contain the recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
The old Sako L61R, at least, was a full-length magnum action and I've never had a problem with its push-feed in 40 years. None of their models have ever had a proper bolt shroud, however, one that covers the left lug runway. IMHO a rifle should not only be safe but look safe.

Wouldn't you consider the Sako A-series bolt shroud proper? Or how about that on the 75s and 85s? It seems to me that the rear of the bolt is pretty-well closed-off with any of these shrouds. It was the L-series Sakos that had only a rear sleeve, not a closed-off shroud.

quote:

Originally posted by South Pender:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
For me, the Sako is out because of the tapered dovetail mounts. Even Sako knows that does not work which is why they have a recoil stop notch in the rear dovetail.

There's nothing wrong with Sako's tapered-dovetail scope mount system. In fact, it works extremely well. The notch in the rear dovetail has no function whatsoever in handling recoil, but is there simply to allow precise positioning of the scope and rings after removal and re-installation without loss of zero. The Leupold ringmounts made for the Sako dovetail don't have the lug that would drop into the notch and so don't employ the notch at all, and many Sako owners file that lug off the rear ring to allow more flexibility in placement of the scope. It is the tapered dovetail and the clamping force of the rings that contain the recoil.

Problem is they need clamping screws on the side. In theory the tapers would be good if bases were made well enough so you could belt them on but some will simply go to far forward. Umpteen years ago an Australian gunsmith used to make bases for them and I think the steel was called Wibrac. Shims of mild steel were made so the bases would fit when belted on. The front base needs to be wider otherwise it will split if belted on.

Having a clamping screw on the side like Optilocks negates the whole idea of the tapered dovetail.

Look at Sako TRG, no tapered dovetails. Look at every accuracy action and the will be parallel dovetails and a cross slot. Look at and of the custom Magnu Mausers with square bridges and all straight dovetails.

Dilemma solved! I'll have a Winchester Model 70 stainless Classic on it's way shortly. Also bought stainless bases and rings for a 3-9x40 Docter I'll put on it. Ready for Alaska :-)

Why not just get a blaser ?

Mike

Mike, my 5 lb K-95 with a 375 barrel would be a bit "brisk".

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Dilemma solved! I'll have a Winchester Model 70 stainless Classic on it's way shortly. Also bought stainless bases and rings for a 3-9x40 Docter I'll put on it. Ready for Alaska :-)

Good move.

Both good guns, I would probably go with the control feed of the Winchester..I really like my Ruger Hawkeye, its classic style, looks Africa, weighs 7.5 lbs naked, 8l5 with scope..I like that. They make a Alaskan gun with SS and a laminated stock that workmanlike, but has a funnu fitting stupid recoil pad that looks like some idiot that go kicked out of gunsmith school stuck in on there, but its an easy fix..

Sorrym I just try to confuse the posters from time to time.

quote:

Originally posted by South Pender:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
The old Sako L61R, at least, was a full-length magnum action and I've never had a problem with its push-feed in 40 years. None of their models have ever had a proper bolt shroud, however, one that covers the left lug runway. IMHO a rifle should not only be safe but look safe.

Wouldn't you consider the Sako A-series bolt shroud proper? Or how about that on the 75s and 85s? It seems to me that the rear of the bolt is pretty-well closed-off with any of these shrouds. It was the L-series Sakos that had only a rear sleeve, not a closed-off shroud.

You may be right, in that that new models with three lugs obviously have the runways in different places. The shroud, though, IIRC is much the same and just reminds me of their contempt for accepted safety concepts over 30 years.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Dilemma solved! I'll have a Winchester Model 70 stainless Classic on it's way shortly. Also bought stainless bases and rings for a 3-9x40 Docter I'll put on it. Ready for Alaska :-)

You are ready for anything.

If shooting kangaroos in the spotlight with a 375 M70 is a sin then I will be in hell for a long time

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by South Pender:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
The old Sako L61R, at least, was a full-length magnum action and I've never had a problem with its push-feed in 40 years. None of their models have ever had a proper bolt shroud, however, one that covers the left lug runway. IMHO a rifle should not only be safe but look safe.

Wouldn't you consider the Sako A-series bolt shroud proper? Or how about that on the 75s and 85s? It seems to me that the rear of the bolt is pretty-well closed-off with any of these shrouds. It was the L-series Sakos that had only a rear sleeve, not a closed-off shroud.

You may be right, in that that new models with three lugs obviously have the runways in different places. The shroud, though, IIRC is much the same and just reminds me of their contempt for accepted safety concepts over 30 years.

Not to be a Sako fanboy, but the older A-series two-lug Sakos did have a full bolt shroud, as seen in the following AV circa 1980:

In fact, a safer action would be hard to imagine.

Compare this Sako action with the Winchester M70 action that doesn't have a fully-shrouded bolt. Here's what Stuart Otteson (The Bolt Action, Vol 1) says of the Win. M70:

"...the left raceway is not blocked off at the rear. This idea of concentrating pressure into a raceway, which is little more than a straight route back toward the shooter's face, goes back to the Springfield. In the Model 70, there is not even the slightest gas-deflecting protection of the Springfield cocking knob."

quote:

Dilemma solved! I'll have a Winchester Model 70 stainless Classic on it's way shortly.

Smart move.

Blaser of course. You will be kicked out of the Supreme Order of Blaser Users (SOBU) and lost your title of Grand Vizeer if you use an abomination Sako or constipated Winchester or abortive Mauser!

One good thing about the Blaser.

If laws came in so you could not own a rifle you would still be be able to own a Blaser.

quote:

If laws came in so you could not own a rifle you would still be be able to own a Blaser.

Damn, THAT'S FUNNY!!!!! Canadians: Take Note!

I've sold a US made CRF Featherweight.

I'll never sell a Sako.

Hence, go with a Sako. You'll be very, very happy.

Sako might just be the best factory produced rifles on the market. I doubt that a German rifle costing 3X as much would shoot better. I doubt a German rifle costing 3X as much would be more reliable.

Both of my Sako rifles will shoot very, very tiny groups. I've taken only one rifle, a Sako, deep into to Rockies without reservation. I have complete faith in my Sako rifles.

The only caveat: Sako rifles tend to be heavier than similar rifles. But when you see tiny groups, weight becomes an acceptable trade.

BTW, both of my Sako rifles are AV: a .270 Win and 7MM Rem Mag.

Come to think of it, I cannot recall anyone posting a negative review of a Sako.

quote:

"...the left raceway is not blocked off at the rear. This idea of concentrating pressure into a raceway, which is little more than a straight route back toward the shooter's face, goes back to the Springfield. In the Model 70, there is not even the slightest gas-deflecting protection of the Springfield cocking knob."

The new classic model 70's have a Mauser like extension on the bolt sleeve and a small gas deflection piece on the extractor collar that blocks the left lug raceway so they solved that problem a while back.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
One good thing about the Blaser.

If laws came in so you could not own a rifle you would still be be able to own a Blaser.

... or a blazer.

But back to the Sako, yes, South Pender, looking at it more closely, I see that the enlargement on which the L61R's bolthandle is mounted, rather than the bolt shroud, does form a barrier.

But does it completely block the left runway in the manner of say the 98 Mauser? If it does, Sako have left us with an optical illusion because it still looks as though we are peering into a vacuity and, as mentioned, I think a rifle should not only be safe but look safe.

At one stage they even put the gas port on the left where it would bleed into the lug runway, which, if not really a danger, certainly got my attention.

That said, I'm glad you've reassured us about the brand's superiority.

As it happens I was thinking of buying a Model 70 338WM in 1980 but lashed out another $50 and got the Sako instead. Though I wear glasses and have always felt they would save my eyes from gas and hot bits, it's nice to know they're not coming my way.

The L series SAko was my favorite, but mostly in the L-61 222, 223 calibers..

Even in the 375 Id prefer the L-series, more Mauser like.

The A series is acceptable but not my cup of tea. and it spelled the death of thee Sako rifle, the last of its kind.

Like most things hunting, rifle brands are mostly preference. For many hunters on a budget, price is a huge concern.

Two things I've gotta have (not counting optics): reliability and accuracy. I can wheel and deal on the rest.

An inexpensive promotional rifle will almost assuredly get the job done.

I've been exposed to Remington's deteriorating quality control. I have no clue whether it's true. My 45+ year old Model 700 is of excellent quality. It's never given me a single problem. It's far more accurate that one could expect. And it'll drop Rocky Mountain mule deer in their tracks.

At its inception, Remington's Model 700 genius was an excellent quality, mass produced rifle. It allowed working men of America to pursue the sport of kings. The Model 700 allowed nearly every American who wanted to hunt big game to do so with an excellent rifle that wasn't priced beyond ability to pay. It was the only big game rifle I owned for about 15 years.

I had known of Sako's stellar reputation for years prior to buying one. While I have no knowledge of Sako rifles other than AV, I do know that the AV model is perfection albeit heavy. The reality is one doesn't need perfection to hunt big game. Hence, it was all about preference. Truth be told, I didn't need a 7MM Rem Mag to kill bull elk. My .270 Win was more than capable of killing bull elk. But it did give me a reason to buy a Sako when I was in position to afford one.

My first Sako, a 7MM Rem Mag, redefined accuracy for me. I wanted another chambered for .270 Win. I didn't need one, I wanted one. Both will shoot very, very tiny groups. But so will my Model 700. I will have my Model 700 in hand opening day of the 2020 Utah mule deer season. Had I been drawn for Rocky Mountain bull elk, I'd of used it.

Action type is more about preference. I've never had a failure to feed anything with a push feed. Arguably the most reliable actions are fully automatic military weapons manufactured by H&K. The M-14 was one of the most reliable military rifles ever manufactured.

Some hunters have affinity and loyalty to a Mauser 98 action. Others are just as happy with a Model 700 action.

In the end, I cannot find fault with any hunter buying what's right for him. After all, he knows what's best for him.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The L series SAko was my favorite, but mostly in the L-61 222, 223 calibers..

Even in the 375 Id prefer the L-series, more Mauser like.

The A series is acceptable but not my cup of tea. and it spelled the death of thee Sako rifle, the last of its kind.

Please correct me if I'm wrong: isn't the Sako AV of the L-Series? I believe it's actual model name is the L-61.

Thanks in advance.

quote:

Originally posted by EMP3:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The L series SAko was my favorite, but mostly in the L-61 222, 223 calibers..

Even in the 375 Id prefer the L-series, more Mauser like.

The A series is acceptable but not my cup of tea. and it spelled the death of thee Sako rifle, the last of its kind.

Please correct me if I'm wrong: isn't the Sako AV of the L-Series? I believe it's actual model name is the L-61.

Thanks in advance.

The Sako A-series models (AI, AII, AIII, AV) came right after the L-series models, with the A1 succeeding the L461, the AII succeeding the L579, and the AIII and AV succeeding the L61R. The L- and A-series actions were similar in most respects, but a major safety advancement in the A-series models was the full bolt shroud (shown above in my earlier post), lacking in the L-series models. So the transition from the L- to the A-series can be seen as an improvement in the action. The L-series models were manufactured between about 1950 and the late 1970s, with the A-series models coming after about 1978.

If Stonecreek is reading this, he will be able to provide the precise dates.

I wouldn't say that the A-series or its ending "spelled the death of the Sako rifle." The A-series rifles were first-rate and highly-prized, and they were followed by the M75 in 1996 and the M85 (the current Sako action) in 2006, both very successful actions.

Good Morning,

You are 100% right.

Both of my Sako rifles are AV. Their serials numbers begin with "AV".

Thanks so much for your help.

I wish you a successful 2020 season.

A Winchester Model 70 is more than a grand less than a Sako 85.

Indulge me to revisit my answer. Go with a Winchester. In complete honesty, I wouldn't pay $2,200+ for a Sako 85 when a Model 70 will kill big game just as dead at more than half-the-price.

Working off memory alone, I believe a paid less than $700 out-the-door for my first Sako. That was about 25 years ago. And the vendor was clearing out Sakos. I was lucky.

I've been told that a new Mauser 98 goes for about 10k. I'm not sure how true that is, but I wouldn't doubt it.

I have had great luck with my stainless Winchesters.
I have a 375 Stainless as well as a 270 win.
They both have fast accurate barrels. I believe better than their chrome moly counterparts.
I also like the way they "dull" in shade. Almost a grey. Better than the shiny bright stainless you see on some offerings.

EZ

Jon, I think you made a fine choice going with the Winchester. I, too, have been impressed with the FN-era Model 70 quality, as well as the trigger. Wishing you a fabulous hunt in Alaska.

Thanks Bill. Nothing planned yet, but I'm ready :-)

I think the bottom line isn't the quality of the rifles, etc, etc. both are great rifles, but for a hunting rifle Im old school, and in a DG rifle demand the control feature..Only those experts who lack experience or just got lucky would choose otherwise..but to each his own on that subject that's been beat to death comming and going..Chose your group..Make mine a custom Mauser, Winchester control feed, or a slightly modified Ruger 77 to a control feed and mod. 70 3pos safety...

Ray, you agreeing with my choice makes me a bit nervous :-)

No need to be nervous, I always knew you would wake up sooner or later,

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Dilemma solved! I'll have a Winchester Model 70 stainless Classic on it's way shortly. Also bought stainless bases and rings for a 3-9x40 Docter I'll put on it. Ready for Alaska :-)

To be entirely ready for Alaska, you need to keep up with all the health mandates. Right now, you’ll need a negative COVID-19 test, taken within 72 hrs of arrival otherwise you’ll be quarantining until you get a negative test result. The Governor has the hunting, fishing, and general tourism industry completely hamstrung right now.