How are you loading your ammo? Are you pushing the bullet up close to the lands, or are you making sure you have a significant amt. of freebore?
I read an article in Handloader about the 30-338, and there is no mention of having to ensure there is freebore to eliminate an overpressure situation. However, I tried to load against the lands with my 308 Norma, its ballistic twin, and a load that was 4.5 grains under max blew a primer with the second round.

I only discovered the source of the problem (later) by reading Ken Waters' article on loading the 308 Norma. He stated that when Norma engineered the round, they specified a minimum of 6 mm of freebore. I went back, seated the bullets to his suggested OAL, and the pressure signs went away. Haven't chrono'ed the load yet, but the firearm became a MOA rifle.
Any suggestions, or any similar experiences? I am wanting to wring the most out of this rifle with 180 Woodleighs (it is an Eddystone, so no problem with strength), but at better than $1/case, I don't need to be ruining any more Norma brass.
Oh, one other thing: the rifle was checked for headspace, and it measured .003". So the chamber is good.
Thanks in advance, guys.

I own a 308 Norma factory rifle imported by Firearms International. It is built on an FN Supreme action. I cannot shoot factory ammo in it. If I do, I have to pry the bolt open. I shot it over a chronograph and the Norma factory 180 gn. load was going 3225 fps. I get 2950 with 70 gr. of H4831 and a Hornady 180 spbt crimped in the cannelure. I haven't tried loading to the lands and I don't know how far from the lands I am loading. I have just started working with this rifle so more experimenting to come.

I didn't answer any of your questions, but, that is the experience I've had with the 308 Norma.

Rojelio

Thanks for the reply, Rojelio. One question: have you taken a dummy round and seated a bullet against the lands to see just how long your chamber is? I don't know who made the rifle, but it seems to me if your rifle is throated short and Norma did indeed call for the long freebore, it might be the source of the stiff bolt.
Which brings up another statement: I have never seen Norma factory ammo cause pressure problems. I have always been amazed by how their ammunition generated the velocities it did without the associated pressure.
Again, thanks!

My headspace is within spec. I haven't checked how much freebore I have if any. I'll do that the next chance I get just for answers. Rojelio

Doubless,
I am not looking at my reloading notes right now, but I shoot a custom 30-338. It has a very tight chamber and not much freebore. With 71gr of H4831, it will shoot a 180gr partition right at 3000fps (here in FL, I'll get over 50fps variation on a load from the temperature). Sierra listed this as a target load, and it is very accurate. I have standardized on this load over the 73gr max load because the velocity isn't that much greater with the heavier load, the accuracy is worse, and the target load has killed everything I ever hit with it.

3000fps is enough to penetrate broadside anything you'd shoot with a .308 at any range at which you are likely to shoot it, and will travel end to end through most animals even though it doesn't exit. What I am trying to say is I wouldn't worry about 200fps, and I'd slow it down, get more life out of your brass, and enjoy the improved accuracy. I want to say the drop on my 3000fps load for a 180gr BT or Partition when zeroed for 225yds was about +3"@100, +3"@175, +2"@200, 0@225, -2"@250, -3"@275 and -6"@300.

Do you still have a copy of the article? I have a 308 Norma (have had it for about 4 years and only shot it 5 times, never get around to loading for it ) I'd like to read the article and see his recommended OAL.

Red

DoubleSS Try to locate one of the early hornady loading manuals. Vol 1 I think. Hornady clearly explains seating bullets closer to the rifling and resulting increase in pressure. The throats in some 308 Norma rifles vary quite a bit. Originally Norma loaned reamers to gunsmiths. This resulted in very uniform chambers with the 4mm of freebore. As time went on other reamers showed up on the market with shorter throats. I presently have 2 rifles in 308 Norma and one in 30-338. I've also had several other 308 normas and I don't think the throat on any two were ever the same. One thing I have noticed is that any European made rifle(Sako Browning,Parker Hale) usually have long throats. Custom made rifles that originate in North America often have short throats.The shorter throat rifles will reach max pressures with 3 or 4 grs less powder but reach very similar max velocities. I suspect Roljelio's rifle has a very short throat. Hope that helps

This is a re-chambered '06, and my original COL (OAL) with a Hornady 180 was 3.480". That was the load that blew the primer, with 68 grains of AA3100 and a Federal 215. Waters' listed OAL is 3.280-3.300", with a whole laundry list of 180s, seven to be exact.

I had also loaded some 150-grain Core-Lokts with 72 grains of the same powder for an OAL of 3.410". (Never shot them at that length...)Waters' recommended OAL for the 150 NP was 3.280"... Guess what? Pretty close to 4 mm, which is the original spec (not the 6mm I quoted earlier. Sorry, guys; I misspoke...).

I am VERY familiar with how seating bullets close to the lands drives pressures up. This is just the first one that has done this to me, in over 20 years of handloading. Kinda scared me. I think I am going to just resort to seating to the cannelure with this one, and let the good times roll, checking case expansion just ahead of the belt, and not exceeding max in any of the books.

And Red, the article is in Volume II of his Pet Loads book.

Keep the discussion coming, guys. I am all ears, and have a LOT to learn about this cartridge.
Many thanks.

DoubleSS The overall length of a cartridge listed in a loading manual may or may not be relavent to your rifle. You have to find out how long your rifles throat is. Take a fired case and resize only about 1/8 on an inch of the neck. With no primer or powder start to seat a bullet in the case. Place this dummy round in your chamber and close the bolt. You will feel some resistance as the bullet contacts the rifling it will be seated deeper in the case. Carefully remove the case and bullet from the chamber.Measure the overall length of this dummy round. If your handloads are less than 4mm shorter than this dummy round you have pretty short throat in your rifle and you should have predicted a popped primer. I would suggest this is done with every rifle before you start loading not after you have a problem! The Hornady manual that explains seating dept is the volume # II not # I as I had previously suggested.

Thanks, Snowman... I have done that with every rifle I have ever owned, and then pushed the bullet up close so there was very little jump. I did the same thing with this one, started well below max, and blew the primer.
At any rate, I did seat a bullet that way yesterday, a Woodleigh 180. Turns out there is .210" between the mouth of the case and the top edge of the cannelure. So I am going to seat to cannelure and see what happens. Should give me plenty of freebore, and the pressure problems should disappear.
(And I re-read the section on seating depth in the Hornady manual, too. It had been a while...)
I think this is just a case (pardon the pun) of me not knowing that this particular cartridge was designed as a freebore, like the Weatherbys. Live and learn!

Well, I finally got around to checking the throat on my rifle.

All I had was a 180 Rem Corelokt. OAL to the lands was 3.394. The cannelure was .154 out of the case mouth. That is almost exactly the required 4mm freebore with this bullet.

I'm sure it would be different with another bullet.

Now I'm really confused about the pressure of the factory rounds....Rojelio

When you build a 30-338 or any caliber for that matter the magazine and the throat should match with your prefered bullet, send the gunsmith a dummy round and have him do that...Most gunsmith have a short throat and bullets cannot be seated out to magazine length....Why this is not customary has always been a mind bender for me...

I do this with all my rifles...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
When you build a 30-338 or any caliber for that matter the magazine and the throat should match with your prefered bullet, send the gunsmith a dummy round and have him do that...Most gunsmith have a short throat and bullets cannot be seated out to magazine length....Why this is not customary has always been a mind bender for me...

I do this with all my rifles...

EXCELLENT ADVICE. Lawdog

I've got the Nosler reloading manual #1 and they have loads for the 308 Norma mag plus they did a check on factory ammo in there test rifle average for 180gr bullet was 2988FPS Norma factory data was at 3100fps and that goes along pretty much what Water's wrote in his article about the 308 Norma mag. Noslers manual came out in 1976. There was at one time 4 manufactors chambering for the 308 Norma mag.
I shot a 308 Norma Mag for awhile before switch ing a 30-338. Well good luck

quote:

When you build a 30-338 or any caliber for that matter the magazine and the throat should match with your prefered bullet, send the gunsmith a dummy round and have him do that...Most gunsmith have a short throat and bullets cannot be seated out to magazine length....Why this is not customary has always been a mind bender for me...

Atkinson, that makes perfect sense to me, but it still doesn't answer whether the 30-338 needs freebore or not. What I understand from your post is that the loaded catrtidge fits the chamber without the freebore. If I am just dense, please forgive me, but I am having a hard time understanding how these reloading manuals can list a COL as "optional" when my experience tells me it really isn't. A short-throated rifle is obviously not going to allow for as much powder as one with freebore. That I am totally aware of.

Let me try to ask this question more clearly, guys: does your .30-338 or 308 Norma require freebore to keep pressures down, and where does your load for a 180 fall in the charts? Are you up close to max, or somewhere in the middle?

In Water's article about freebore with the 308 Norma mag was based on Norma's spec for a european chambering in todays terms it means seating depth is what he was talking about to keep pressure down as I reread the article. Chamber reamers back then aren't what they are today also. You can spec all kinds of things on todays reamer and get a computer print out. Since I'm from the time of the 30-338 and 308 Norma Mag was alot of different reamers were use headspace can be correct but can be short or long throated. You have to remember when the 308 mag showed up was only one other 30 cal mag and it was the 300wby (freebore). When the 30-338 and 300mag became factory chambers never heard the word freebore again other than the wby line. I can only say for my experience any time you load again the lands in a mag rifle your chances of having high pressure and blown primers is almost a sure thing. Big ogive difference in bullet of the same weight. In both my 30-338 I never got into worrying about freebore other than giving the gunsmith a round for throating and my first 30-338 was done over 20yrs ago. Well good luck.

If you seat the bullet out to fit the magazine and the chamber then you really don't need any freebore....Freebore is what I call a "thang", it doesn't have much to offer one way or another IMO...its just there, some guns shoot well freebored so folks think that is why, when in reality its probably the good bore, not the freebore..then they tell us you can load them hotter, yes, you can but with more powder for the same velocity....Just never could see the use of it..It always seemed to me it was more hat then cowboy...

I have some rifles that shoot better with bullets close to the lands while other shoot better with a considerable distance from the lands. Experiment with both. My 30-338 shoots 190 gr Hornadys to a sub-MOA with 5 shot groups.The velocity is a tad over the 3100 FPS.
Never used the Norma brass as I used the 338 WM Winchester brass. Why not do your testing using 7mm Rem Mag or 338 Win Mag cases? Once you get the load you want then switch to the Norma brass and tweak her when you get close to the load you can live with!