I hope this is where I should put this. I use my 270 Win the most but have been wanting to get a larger Caliber for moose and bears. A friend of mine has a 375 and I have enjoined shooting it. I just wondered what you all thought would be a better choice for a larger caliber. I am looking to create my primary 3 guns for pretty much all my hunting. I have the first two, a .223 remington 700 in a scout setup and a Winchester Model 70 in 270 Win. So now I am trying to figure out the third. Thanks for the help.

Mark, that is an excellent question.

I have never owned a 338 Win Mag, but I have hunted with a 340 WBY, and a couple of different 375 H&H's.
The 338 Win Mag and the 375 H&H are both Great Calibres. Here are some random thoughts.

First the 375 H&H. IF you plan on takong the rifle to Africa, I would pick the 375.

Also, the 375 has the advantage of lighter bullets syitable for deer and pigs, loaded to a lower velocity, for less recoil. Allowing you to have a lot of fun,and get a lot of training with your 375. I have killed several deer, several wild pigs and several turkeys with my 375...

The 338 has the advantages of a little flatter trajectory, and less recoil. I have sjt several 338's and I think they have less recoil than even the 300 Win Mag, and much less than the 375...
Also I have found that when in hunting areas in the lower 48, it is much easier to find 338 Mag ammo vs 375 H&H...

Early on I chose the 375 H&H. I like it better for ME.

But, I still think that the 338 Win Mag is one of the best hunting cartridges for BIG big game in the USA, including Alaska, and for Canada.

A 223, a 270WCF, and a 338 Win Mag, make a Great Trio of hunting rifles...

I just finished up my second (after a dry spell) 338 today, and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend one. It's a Model 70 Stainless Classic that I bedded into an HS precision stock. Easy shooting, and as it turned out easy to load for. I use the 225gr Barnes TTSX and short of cape buffalo, I'm not sure what else I would need. You can also load them with heavier bullets if you want, up to 300grs. For what it's worth, I also have its little brother, the exact same setup in a 270, shooting 130gr TTSXs. I think the 270 and 338 are a good, balanced pair. As 450 No2 said, if Africa is in the cards, the 375 is logical, if not, I would stick with the 338.

which bears?

for brown bear, I would want a .375.

No flies on either

I have both of them, and while I believe the 338 WM to be the most versatile all around N. American cartridge (and the one I use for 85% of my hunting), I would have to vote for the 375 H&H.
Your post says for "Bear & Moose", but if you ever had the hankerin to head to Africa, you would be legal for DG with the 375.

As much as I would love to think that someday I will make it to Africa I don't think I will. The most I can expect is to get to Alaska for a brown bear and Moose hunt. I have a good family friend that has a son in Alaska and I am hoping to get up there one of the these days. I want to get the rifle I plan on using up there sooner rather then later so I can at least hunt some elk with it before I get after bigger game.

As much as I like the 375H&H, I would not hesitate to shoot the biggest brown bear on the Planet with a 338 Win Mag and a good 250gr bullet.

However, back in the day, when the 338 Win Mag came out Winchester had a 300gr load for it.

Many years ago Dick Gunnalogasin [sp] told me personally, that he much prefered the 300gr Winchester factory load in the 338 Mag...
He stated he had stockpiled "several" boxes of it before it was discontinued.
Elmer Keith also liked 300gr bullets in the 338...

Or, for that matter the 9,3x74R...

Or the 405 WCF, with good bullets in each of course.

I have both calibers. I tend to use the .375 more than the .338. They both perform and will work for the bears and the moose you're after but I feel there is a better variety of bullets available for the .375 so I tend to use it more often.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
I have both calibers. I tend to use the .375 more than the .338. They both perform and will work for the bears and the moose you're after but I feel there is a better variety of bullets available for the .375 so I tend to use it more often.

In my ballistics book I have noticed that there seems to be more factory loadings available for the .375. Even though there seems to be more loadings for the .375 have you fellows noticed if it's easier to find the .338 in stores here in the U.S?

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I would not hesitate to shoot the biggest brown bear on the Planet with a 338 Win Mag and a good 250gr bullet.

I agree. I hunted AK Brown Bear a few yrs back with my 338 WM, but with a 225gr Nosler Part (that's what I use in that rifle, didn't bother working up a heavier load for the hunt), killed him DRT @ about 30 yards

quote:

Originally posted by Mark T.:

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
I have both calibers. I tend to use the .375 more than the .338. They both perform and will work for the bears and the moose you're after but I feel there is a better variety of bullets available for the .375 so I tend to use it more often.

In my ballistics book I have noticed that there seems to be more factory loadings available for the .375. Even though there seems to be more loadings for the .375 have you fellows noticed if it's easier to find the .338 in stores here in the U.S?

I might suggest that with either of the above mentioned cartridges, that you start hand loading (if you don't already).
To become proficient with either (or any rifle for that matter), a fellow should shoot it plenty....Factory ammo in either would break the bank if it were me shooting them.

I have recently and finally got my reloading stuff setup. So I do plan on reloading whichever round I decide to go with.

I would go for the 338 Win Mag, unless africa is on the cards. If you are going to confine your hunting to North America then, the versatility of a 338 Win Mag will make it the best choice in my opinion. You can shoot 160gn at 3390fps, up to 300gn at 2450fps, but most game taken with a 338 Win Mag is taken with either 225gn bullets at 2800fps or 250gn bullets at 2700fps, and I would choose the latter for bigger game. There are many choices of really excellent bullet in this caliber at both those weights. The 225gn Barnes, the 225gn Nosler Accubond and the 250gn Swift A frame, are three that come to mind instantly.

338User has good advice.
If Africa is for sure out of the question, then I would for sure go with the 338 WM with 225 or 250's.
If down the road Africa becomes an option, then you have an excuse to get another rifle (416).

Highly respected gun writer Bob Hagel used various .338 cartridges all over North America and he found the Nosler 210 Partition was all the bullet he needed on moose, elk or big bears. It penetrated as well as heavier bullets, shot flatter and recoiled less - not that Hagel was in any way recoil-shy.

I used that bullet almost exclusively in my .338s for twenty years in Alaska and never had a failure. Only recovered two, both under the hide after penetrating about four feet of bull moose. A hunting buddy used a .375 H&H and we never saw a difference in performance on game. Either cartridge will work if the hunter becomes proficient with it.

BTW since moving to Texas I still use my favorite .338 WinMag on small Texas deer and hogs. I download it, pushing 200 grain SP bullets to 2400 fps with BlueDot. Kills great with recoil like a .308.


.

You can buy a brand new Ruger 37127 M77 Hawkeye 338 Win Walnut on Gunbroker for $486. As mentioned by others, the 338 is up to any task.

Auction # 422800247

Split the difference, and build a 358 Norma mag!

If you want to split the difference, go for a 9.3 X 62. Easy to load for, lots of different bullets out there now, extremely accurate in most rifles, moderate recoil. Mine has taken everything from pigs to Cape Buffalo.

Larry Sellers
SCI(International)Life Member
Sabatti 'trash' Double Shooter
R8 Blaser (9.3 x 62)
DRSS

Both calibers are plenty for North America. If Africa is not on the menu, then I'd go with the 338 WM. I have owned both calibers and have hunted Alaska exclusively with the 338 WM since 1993. Prior to that I used a 300 WM.

I've killed Sitka Blacktails, caribou, goat, moose, black bear, grizzly and brown bears with the 338 WM and 225 grain Barnes bullets. I don't see the need for a bigger, heavier bullet for moose or big bears.

I prefer to hunt everything in Alaska with one bullet and load. I handload but I don't want to mess around with one load for deer and caribou sized game and another for moose or bears. I just want to keep things simple. Particularly, since I might have a chance to shoot a big bear while hunting deer or caribou. So, I settled on the 225 grain bullet and it has really served me well.

The 375 will kill everything too but generally you'll end up with a heavier rifle or you can buy a lighter weight one and muzzle brake it. Either way, I think the 375 caliber is just plain overkill for most North American game. I know you can't kill an elk, moose or bear too dead but I just don't see the need for it. An acquaintance of mine who is a master guide here in Alaska has a different view. When I asked him what the best all around caliber was for Alaska he immediately replied the 375. His perspective comes from guiding clients to brown bears so he prefers the 375.

One other thing I don't like about the venerable 375 is it uses a long action vs the standard length action used for the 338. This is purely personal preference as the 375 has been around the world and functions just fine.

Having said all this I have to admit, I have recently, been thinking about having a 375 Ruger built. I'm not a fan of Ruger rifles so it would have to be on a different action but what I like about this cartridge is I can get 375 performance maybe even a touch faster out of a standard length action. That would be a powerhouse combination but I keep wrestling with the reality it just isn't necessary for moose and big bears but it sure would be interesting.

Either way you go you have access to both factory loads and plenty of components for reloading so you'll be set for moose and big bears.

Get the 375HH...

You seem like somebody who believes in fewer rifles and more hunting.

The 270 win is good for anything in NA except Brown Bear.

The 338 is good for everything in NA but not a DGR africa rifle

The 375hh is not only good for Brown Bears it is great for Brown Bears and is a good DGR.

It can also be loaded down for lots of things.

The difference in trajectory btwn a 375 and 338 with similar bullet weights is negligible.

With respect to action length, almost all mfgs use the same action for their std and true magnum action. Remember you only are accommodating 1/3 of an inch.

I've owned a few 338 win and a few 375 h&h. I've only hunted with the 375 and it was deer. I'm sure either are up to the task.

Although I haven't done any real hunting with either, I have shot them a lot and reloaded for them. Both are easy to reload for. both seem to be accurate and have accurate bullets. Both are easy to find in stores now days. The 338 with factory loads kicks a little less. The 338 has more aerodynamic bullets and is generally a longer range round that retains it's power at longer ranges. I was in the market for a 338 or 375 and I found a 375 so that's what I chose first. I would hunt my 375 out to 350 yards with a 270gn bullet, but the 338 I would take out to 500 yards or maybe a little more because it retains velocity and energy better.

Generally you can find a little lighter rifle in 338, but 375's can be found fairly light too.

So basically the 338 has a little better long range characteristics and the 375 has a little better smack and can take heavier bullets. both seem to kill really well from everything I've heard or read.

Mark,

I have a similar setup as you. Also have a 270 in Mod 70, and a 'bigger gun'. As everyone has said, if you are going to Africa, or may at some point or just want to have fun dreaming, then it's a 375. Otherwise, I doubt it matters, though the Alaska brown bear experienced people would have to weigh in on that one.

Seems that there may be a few more 338 bullets available for general use and with higher BC's...(as opposed to solids etc.for the 375)...but there are a few choices out there that will make the 375 pretty flat...or flat enough. You have to know the range anyways for either and will have to compensate.

The one thing that may set them apart for you is rifle choices. I think there are probably a few more choices in regular weight 338. 375 seems to be the point where manufacturers use the heavy template. Winchester, for example. Their Safari 375 is the same one they use for the 416 and the 458. So you get a very heavy barrel because it has to fit the same barrel contour as the larger calibers. Makes the gun heavy, but pleasant to shoot. The actions are the same length as the 338's etc. (bolt stop moved, box lengthened etc though), but the stocks are heavier, barrels heavier etc. CZ's 375 is on the full mag length action. It's very heavy. Not that there are not lighter weight 375's available, but most 375's are probably built on the heavy side if that's important to you.

In 338's, they are built on the same platform as everything else, so I think you would probably have more choices there. So I maybe the way to go is to look and see what rifles are available in each caliber and then let your heart tell you where to go.

For the record, I had the win safari in 375 and hunted a little with it. Easy shooting and accurate, it was also heavy. But it convinced me that I loved the 375...I was headed to Africa at the time, though I never made it. Its still the price of admission for dreams of Alaska to Africa, even though that's probably not going to happen. But I sold that one and planned on building one just like the 338 I shot (weight and shape wise), but in 375.

Well, moved back to the US and started dreaming of a 375 again and luckily, Winchester released the Alaskan in 375...25 inch barrel etc...but it's based on the Alaskan, not the Safari platform, so the barrel and stock is much lighter contour etc.

Long and short, rifle, scope, bases and rings weigh in at 9lbs (and I have a longer range scope on it, I could have probably done 8.5 lbs if I really wanted). So it's not far off my 270. And now I feel like I have one gun that really could do it all, anywhere around the world. Even if I cant'

But really, I know it's not much help, but either will probably serve you equally well, so maybe just find the gun that makes you smile and take the caliber that goes with it!

quote:

Originally posted by 460 wby shooter:
Split the difference, and build a 358 Norma mag!

I really appreciate all the help you guys have given me on this topic and I really like the 358 Norma Mag idea. I have read about the round before and it really seems like a great round. I don't understand why it never really caught on. I don't really have a lot of experience with rechambering. I have built a few guns but when I say built they were all just on factory actions and ARs and Scout rifles and such. What would I need to start with to be able to end up with a 358 Norma Mag? Also is there any factory ammo around for it? I have looked several places and no luck. I would definitely reload for it but would also like to get my hands on some factory ammo if I could. I really would like to get a 358 but if ammo is too hard to come by I might have to stick with something that is easier to obtain. I am the kind of person who likes to have a decent amount of ammo on hand for my guns. I don't want to say I'm brand new to reloading but it's something I am still learning so Factory ammo is still a friend. Would a 9,3x62 be a good compromise? Factory ammo seems more abundant. I don't really know much about metric calibers and my Ammo and Ballistics 5th edition doesn't even list it, but there seems to be a lot of love for it here.

Another advantage of the 375 H&H is that you can get the 220gr Hornady FN, the Speer 235gr, and the Sierra 250gr bullets.

Between a buddy, my brother, and myself we have killed a lot of deer, pigs and turkey in Texas with these bullets loaded to around 2500fps.

These bullets are inexpensive, kill like the Hammer of Thor, and are very accurate.

We all load from 60 to 64gr of IMR 3031.

Recoil is about like a 308 or a 30/06.

These loads enable you to do a lot of shooting and hunting with your 375 H&H.

...and you get the 235gr. Barnes X, I used it on a recent PG hunt in Namibia....culled Oryx.. shot Hartebeest and Kudu....worked very well with little recoil too..

Mark T., The 358 Norma & 9.3x62 are both awesome "alternatives"...I have both as well, neither will do any better or worse for your said purposes than the 338 or 375.

The 358 Norma would be on the same platform as either the 338 or 375 (re barrel your typical magnum remchester), with power about in the middle of the two (reloading dependant).
The 9.3x62 can/will be had in a smaller/lighter package (30/06 length action).

The 358 Norma will most likely need to be commissioned to a GS, unless your lucky to find one in the classifieds somewhere. It will likely be next to impossible to find factory fodder for it.

The 9.3x62 can fairly easily be had in Sako, Tikka, Zastava & Ruger "African" (if you can find one). The Tikka or Zastava would likely be the easiest to find, as well as most affordable. I don't how hard it would be to find factory ammo for it (I haven't looked).

As mentioned, I have all 4 of the above. Up until about 4 months ago, my 338 saw the most use....but I can easily see my Sako 85 9.3x62 getting the brunt of the work for awhile!

I would vote for the 338. I too use the 210 grain Partitions and they shoot flat with lots of punch. I love the 375 and have several but if the day came I could only have one rifle it would be my 338.
Travel to Africa with a rifle is becoming more and more cumbersome. I see more and more hunters choosing to use the outfitters rifles. I would not worry about a rifle for Africa at this point.

I have a 338wm and a 416 no need for a 375.

But if a good 375 would come along on the free market at the right price I would own one of them also.

For your question of which one to complete your gun set up so to speak.. No question the 375 H&H is the better choice.

Advantages

It's the 30-06 of the world.
It kicks less.
It shoots flat enough to make 300 yard shots all day.
It hits harder.
I know for a fact you can see the elk flinch when you shoot them with a 375 but not always when you use a 338.
I've killed the 3 bears of North America with a 375 and I believe deader is better when bears are white or brown.
375 opens the whole world of African hunting. If their is any possibility you will ever hunt Africa, then 375 is your best choice.
Lastly, it's worth repeating. A 375 with 300 grain bullet kicks less than a 338 with 250 grain. In fact in my experience the 375 kicks less than 338 with 210 bullets as well.

If your not interested in going to Africa and you don't mind kick, then they are close to equal.

You could have a long and varied hunting career with either and never encounter the situation when the other was better. Get the rifle you like and go hunting.

I find the .375 to kick less than the .338 as well. Is less abrupt somehow, no matter what the numbers say.

I too found the subjective recoil of the 375 less than either of my 338's. Less abrupt, longer slower push. Doesn't make sense by the numbers and could have been just the rifles themselves.

I had some fun at the range years ago when the shooter next to me was getting the snot pounded out of him by a .338. He wasn't trying to keep it a secret either. I knew him a bit because he was a regular, and suggested that the cure to his problem was to shoot a .375. He definitely had his doubts, but I had mine with me and he was game to try. After shooting a string from the bench with my rifle he looked at me quizzically and said "so why have we spend so many years getting beat up by little guns?"

Again thanks for all the insight. I have decided to go with the 375. I feel that it will best suit my needs. Now I only have to sell a rifle I'm not using to fund this purchase and decide which brand of rifle to get. I am leaning towards the model 70 Alaskan or Safari Express but I am also looking at the CZ 550 American Safari. My buddy has a Browning A bolt and it has served him well so maybe I'll look at the Browning x-Bolt also. I like that the X-Bolt can be had in stainless too.

The CZ is just too big for a .375.

I'd take the Alaskan.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark T.:
I am leaning towards the model 70 Alaskan or Safari Express but I am also looking at the CZ 550 American Safari. My buddy has a Browning A bolt and it has served him well so maybe I'll look at the Browning x-Bolt also. I like that the X-Bolt can be had in stainless too.

As noted, the CZ in a 375 would be too big for my liking. Of your other choices, I personally would go with the Alaskan 1st, the Safari express 2nd.....and would never consider owning a Browning

If 375 is for sure the cartridge you want, then I would get the Winchester Alaskan. Very easy to carry... Most everything else is just too darn heavy for a 375. If you change your mind on the 375, then I would seriously consider the 338-06, 35 Whelen, or 9.3x62. I have one or two of each. You won't go wrong with any of them, especially if you reload. I don't shoot at extended ranges, so I never realized the need for a belted case on any caliber smaller than 375. I'm not anti-belted magnum, but I steer away from belts when I can. For your situation, my personal recommendation would be the 9.3x62 in the Zastava Mauser. It's a pretty utilitarian set-up, but with a little finesse and use, it will slick right up. I like mine, never have to worry about scratching it or getting it dirty. It's my truck gun on the farm. Only pegged a few coyotes with it though. I hear they charge when wounded...

That being said, the 375 h&h is to the world, what the 30-06 is to NA, IMHO. An amazingly versatile round. 235's for the small stuff, including coyotes and prairie dogs(ask me how I know)... And 300's or 350's for the biggns'

I've got the CZ, the African and the Alaskan. All have their appeals but I
Like the Alaskan best of all. If you view it as a versatile do everything in North America hunting rifle the couple pounds or more that is shed is welcomed. If you view it as a "big gun" for African use then the African is your baby. If you view it as work horse horse killing machine and a project then the CZ has a lot going for it. I spent enough on little mods to buy a Winchester that didn't need any. There is a certain appeal to a seven shot .375 though.

As I might have mentioned previously, I have had both the Safari Express and the Alaskan in 375. They are really to different expressions of what a 375 can be. Neither is right, they are just different.

My Safari Express was a beautiful rifle, shot well, carried well due to the barrel band, felt so very solid and, even though the barrel length was only 1 inch different, felt shorter to me than the alaskan. I found the barrel band very nice for getting it lower down on the shoulder when carrying, which had the added benefit of lowering the center of gravity so it did not feel as heavy to me as it was.

The downside was definitely weight. Mine was 10.25 or so with scope. That really took the edge off the recoil, especially off the bench, but it was not a 'lively' gun to me, and I did not like carrying it too much. It felt like a big gun, not like a CZ, but still big.

But it screamed classic and Africa. The thick barrel and large stock, while not feeling handy, felt powerful and sure...

My Alaskan feels so different. It is long and trim. The grip feels more open, the stock is more slender both in the butt and the forearm. The new trigger did not need any work to get it down to a crisp 3lbs (my safari express was a NH gun..the new ones will have the new trigger). It feels like a rifle you would pack anywhere for everything. The long 25" barrel and stock contour gives it a long 'fast' look, like it should be a 7mm STW or 300 Weatherby or something.

The purpose of this rifle for me is do it all, so I have worked up loads to reach out there, relatively speaking. The scope I put on is, therefore, appropriate to that function, so the whole package looks lean and fast. Being 9lbs total, relative to the Safari express, it's very light, lively, and handy. It will only be about 1" longer than your 270, as the action size is actually the same, but the barrel is 1" longer.

Overall, the rifle instead of a smasher, is now arranged to take most anything out to as far as I might imagine trying. Think Safari express is an F350, big and solid, and the Alaskan, a sporty car, faster and more agile in it's handling. Of course, when the bullet leaves the barrel, it's all the same, but talking about rifle handling here.

Downside? While it has a long trim profile, it feels long...that extra inch, for some reason to me, I just notice it compared to my 270. And though the weight loss is great for carrying and holding and shooting offhand, I do miss that extra 1.25 lbs when shooting 300's off the too-low benches at the local range!

So on those two rifles, it really comes down to fit and design...with the two big differences being weight and length. I chose based on what I planned to use it for...since my desire was for general purpose....I chose to move to the Alaskan. But the Safari Express, with that extra weight, was more comfortable for me to shoot, undoubtedly. YMMV.

I cranked some 380 grain Rhinos out of my Alaskan from the bench. You might not want to do that on a regular basis.