I've got a Savage model 11, walnut stock in 308 that is driving me nuts. My first groups with the gun are decent, about an inch and then they keep opening up, like really opening up, to the tune of about 3 to 4 inches at 100 yards. I have swapped scopes, taken the stock off and put back on tightening all of the screws, checked the scope and stock screws during the shooting sessions and they have always been tight, tried several different loads, ran patches down barrel during shooting session and all with the same result, groups keep opening up.

I also have let the gun cool down and even today it was only 35 degrees out, barrel was never very hot but groups still got large as I shot it.

The barrel is not truly free floating like another savage I own. Maybe somehow a pressure point is being exaggerated as I put more rounds down the tube, that is all I can come up with. I have several hunting rifles, reload, put on scopes myself and this is the only one that won't shoot accurately(at least not after a the first group) I am ready to send it back to Savage.

Has this problem happened to any of you out there and if so, how did you correct it? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

How many groups are you shooting per session?

Just curious.

Sounds exactly like a pressure point that creates a problem as the barrel heats up. Time to do some woodwork.

For most of my rifles I shoot between 4 and 5 groups per session and they typically get better as I settle down to shooting better. For this rifle it doesn't work that way. The groups get worse and I have switched to other rifles to see if I am maybe just getting tired but with those rifles I have gotten good groups. Maybe I need to work on the stock a bit.

I'd have it glass bedded and be done with it.

UNG, There are two things I do to a new rifle before I shoot it: Freefloat the barrel, and adjust the trigger.

If the barrel is not freefloated, I'd float the barrel before I shot it again.

Usually if it's a heat/pressure point problem the groups will open up but will string in a consistent direction. If you are getting truly random results, it might be a scope mount or ring problem.

I built a rifle with an E.R.Shaw barrels a good number of years ago. I glass bedded the action and free floated the barrel. First shot would be in the bulls eys, next would be to the right 1/2 inch, the next to the right agian 1/2 inch and so on until the fifth was about 3 inches to the right of the bulls eye. Let it cool and it did the same thing over. So I point a pressure bedding just about two inches back from the forearm tip and Bingo! Now it shoots nice small round groups under an inch. Free floating doesn't work on all barrels. I believe the Shaw barrel has stress in it and as it heats up starts walking.

If your barrel repeats what it's doing the same each time you shoot it, it's not loose scope mounts or anything like that. It's definitely a barrel problem or stock problem. If you free float it and it does the same thing, that eliminates the stock.

See my comments in 'Small Calibers' Things changed when I made sure it was free floating !

quote:

Originally posted by mete:
See my comments in 'Small Calibers' Things changed when I made sure it was free floating !

Yep free float and glass bed it.

When a barrel 'walks' the shots in the same manner every time you shoot, it is because the bore does not coincide with the profile of the barrel. The bore is bowed or off center.

Progressively larger groups are caused by pressure on the barrel that gets higher as the barrel heats up. The only contact between a good barrel and the rest of the system should be on the threads into the action.

No barrel band, no glass support under the first section of barrel, no pressure points and no synthetic stock that can be flexed by hand.

make sure the barell nut is tight.

How many rounds down the tube? How have you been cleaning it?

If the groups are random and not stringing in a direction it could be a rough bore that fouls heavy.

I agree with free float, bedding, and trigger, but sometimes the simple things get overlooked. Nate

quote:

Posted Feb 12, 10:57 PM Hide Post
When a barrel 'walks' the shots in the same manner every time you shoot, it is because the bore does not coincide with the profile of the barrel. The bore is bowed or off center.

Progressively larger groups are caused by pressure on the

Dead on! I had a REM 700 moutain rifle that (from a cold barrel) would string out 5 shots in a straight line from center to 2 o'clock for a repeatable 5" string. Floating, bedding, tightening did not help. Traded it off.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
When a barrel 'walks' the shots in the same manner every time you shoot, it is because the bore does not coincide with the profile of the barrel. The bore is bowed or off center.

Could the barrel be turned using the bore as the centers?

Yes. If the bore is straight. Often the bore is slightly bowed through the profile but this can be seen when chucked in a lathe and turned at around 60rpm.

I picked up a Savage 110 rifle for a very low price a couple years ago. The guy said he couldn't make it shoot. The symptoms were just as you describe. I noticed that the action wasn't bedded straight in the stock. I could remove the stock and torque the screws so the barrel wouldn't touch the stock (still crooked) and it would be ok for a few shots. After firing several rounds, I could see that the vibration had moved it again and the barrel would be touching (screws still tight). I took it to a gunsmith and showed him what I was seeing. A week later I received the rifle back with things aligned much better. That rifle shoots very well indeed now. It's more accurate than I am. The problem was that the factory stock inletting was off significantly.

Does sound like an action that is not straight in the stock. Make sure the tang is floated as well.

Savage actions to not like to have the tang touching anything!

I had a custom Model 700 that did the same thing. Then I read an article about simple tricks to improve accuracy. One of the tricks was to slide a business card, sideways, between the fore end tip and the barrel, creating a pressure point at the end of the fore end.

I did this and my groups went back to one inch! I liked it so much that I went to Aftica with the pressure point in place and used that rifle to shoot 20 head of game, including a leopard.

I don't know the physics behind why it worked.. I just know that it did.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
I built a rifle with an E.R.Shaw barrels a good number of years ago. I glass bedded the action and free floated the barrel. First shot would be in the bulls eys, next would be to the right 1/2 inch, the next to the right again 1/2 inch and so on until the fifth was about 3 inches to the right of the bulls eye. Let it cool and it did the same thing over. So I point a pressure bedding just about two inches back from the forearm tip and Bingo! Now it shoots nice small round groups under an inch. Free floating doesn't work on all barrels. I believe the Shaw barrel has stress in it and as it heats up starts walking.

If your barrel repeats what it's doing the same each time you shoot it, it's not loose scope mounts or anything like that. It's definitely a barrel problem or stock problem. If you free float it and it does the same thing, that eliminates the stock.

This above post is why I WOULD trust SmokinJ to build rifles for me, and would not trust ANY guy who says "When "this" happens, it is always because of "that".

Accuracy is not so simple as to be reduced to single causes, or to be found in the "secrets" of "experts".

I have been shooting and building rifles long enough to know that there are at least several, maybe even "Many" possible reasons for just about anything that can happen with a rifle.

There are virtually no "on demand" perfect barrels or perfect stocks out there folks. Drilling and reaming a perfectly straight small round hole 64 or more times longer than its own diameter is as much an accident as good management. Then cutting, pressing, or hammering grooves in it multiplies the difficulty of that happening.

Ditto perfect bedding, whether injection moulded, made with epoxy, or cut from wood.

Some barrels and stocks work together well if pressure bedded, others if free floated. Pressure bedding works sometimes when it damps irregularities out of the barrel AND/OR stock harmonics. Free-floating works sometimes because it doesn't induce added stresses into barrels (or stocks).

Which works BEST for a given barrel and stock (and ammunition/load)? The only way to know that for sure for a single barrel and action is to try different ways of setting it up and shooting it.

Why don't we do that multiple testing approach all the time? Because we don't often need to.

Most ways will work well enough for target shooting, hunting, or any other normal use, IF the work is well done with reasonable skill and care, and if the shooter is a skilled practioner of the art of shooting.

All of which goes a long way toward explaining why the top benchrest shooters can use even a less than great rifle and still win...Tony Boyer comes immediately to mind. Or why a certain Mr. Tubb can regularly win the U.S. National Championship in hi-power.

Anyway, my cautionary intent here is not to bless or damn one way of bedding over another. It is to caution you against those who fervently believe there is only one way to skin all cats.

SmokinJ obviously understands all that about accuracy. Folks who think there is just one way to do anything obviously don't.