Generally speaking, I tend to agree with Ray on this issue as he has more actual hunting/big game experience than most of us will ever get. I also have had a "luv affair" with the .338 Win. since '68 and am fortunate enough to have several superb rifles in that caliber, the best of all for B.C., IMO.

However, Schromf is right, for most guys, one of the medium bore rounds on the '06 case can be/is a really useful cartridge and, even in the densely populated Grizzly areas of contemporary B.C., these rounds really work as several very experienced bush workers and guides I know will attest.

I like to backpack hunt and frequently go alone due to the work committments of my two hunting partners and personal choice. I am also 59 and B.C. is steep, wet, densely forested and very tough country, so, a light rifle is really useful to me. I prefer to carry my rifle in my hands in bear country, especially whenn packing meat on my back and this also means using a light rifle.

In this situation, the use of the Husqvarna HVA action or the rare but highly desireable Brno 21 series action or an also rare FN small ring coupled with a High Tech stock, 22" bbl., Leupy QRs and Leupy FX-IV scope can give you a rifle/cartridge combo, in .338-06, .35W., or 9.3x62 that is better for Grizzlies than an .06 and as good for Elk at most mountain ranges as anything else. Such a rifle simply is so much easier to pack that it allows you to save energy and thus hunt harder and further while retaining a 5 shot capacity that I tend to prefer.

I have projects slowly underway to have both a .338-06 and 9.3x62 of this type built for use as I get older and the B.C. mountains get steeper. This is one definite advantage to these rounds over the magnums, IMO.

schromf I think you should run out & build one. Like kuteny, as i get older I really don't want to hump a 9#+ rifle up & down the mountains. The .338-06 is very managable from an 8# rifle w/o kicking the crap out of you & I have shot an 8# .338wm, not brutal but more than I want to spend a day w/ at the range. I like you analagoy of Dangerfield, yeah they get no respect for sure.

I just bought a action from Vapodog, and its earmarked for this upcoming project.

No I haven't gotten into the final downselect on which cartridge, but it's defiantely in this band of cartridges, 338-06 and 9.3x62 are the main contenders in the non mag group, a 338 win mag isn't completely out of consideration, and a couple of european and British calibers haven't been discarded either.

My practicle side is using brass availability, die costs, and potential use as the only yardstick. Its down in the que so to speak on my smithing projects but I expect after the first of the year I am going to get moving on it whatever way I decide to go.

AS this circle turns, I want to question twist rates on a couple of these.

1st...338-06 seems be the common twist rate is 1-10 off the 338 Mag set up for 275gr-300gr bullets, wouldn't a 1-11 ( 11.5 ) be optimal for for the 225-250 gr bullets for this.

2nd...35 Whelen a little more options, whats the best twist on this? 1-12, 1-14 or 1-16

Among the mistakes I've made is assuming that there's a benefit to twist slower than for the heavy bullet assuming I'll shoot the lighter bullets.
Since that time I've decided that I can't overstabilize a bullet. So if I build a .338-06 I'll use a 1:10 twist or maybe even 1:9 twist.

I have a 6 X 45 with 1:14 twist and I dearly wish it had a 1:10

For a .35 Whelen I'd prefer the 1:12

These are big game bullets and not likely to succumb to the fate of such things as lightly jacketed .224 bullets that can actually come apart in mid air due to too high RPMs.

quote:

can actually come apart in mid air due to too high RPMs.

Don't see that happening by a long stretch.

Vapodog,

overstabilization thats a fancy 4 bit word. Not even sure I want the full defination. My thoughts were that this rounds usually aren't known as tack drivers. My though is that a 225 gr bullet and a 1-11 twist the groups could be tightened up some. So what kinda groups are you getting out of yours?

quote:

overstabilization thats a fancy 4 bit word. Not even sure I want the full defination. My thoughts were that this rounds usually aren't known as tack drivers. My though is that a 225 gr bullet and a 1-11 twist the groups could be tightened up some. So what kinda groups are you getting out of yours?

Overstabilization is anything faster than necessary to achieve stabilization FWIW.

So far I've not found that using a fast twist barrel hurts the performance of lighter bullets

There are those that want their .30 cal to twist 1:12.....why?...because they don't want to shoot 220 Grain bullets.....180s are OK with them
In all this there's no incidence of inadequate accuracy shooting 150 grain bullets in a 1:10 twist.

My .338 Mag is 1:10 and I'm very happy with the accuracy with even 180 grain BTs.

I don't own a .358 cal so no direct experience except to say that I'd go the faster twist as a matter of history.

I checked Lilja's websire on this, and I also think Dan knows a thing or to from past experiences with him.

I see 1-12 on the 225 gr. I doubt a 1-11 twist is even available, and I would agree with you given the option between 1-12 and 1-10 I would opt for the 1-10.

For all you .338 fans, I thought this is a good place for this . If anyone wants the remainder of a box of 180 gr Barnes X for FREE, just send me a PM and pay the shipping !!! They don't stabilize in my .338 MAG A-Bolt.

My 35 Whelen has a 1:14 twist rate and it shoots fine with bullets from 158gr thru 250gr...havent tried any of the heavier bullets...and I doubt that I will need anything heavier than 250s for my purposes...

Zeeriverrat1

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
So far I've not found that using a fast twist barrel hurts the performance of lighter bullets

Except when the bullets spin their jackets off in mid air within 25 yards. Examples upon request. roger

I too chose the '06 version over the Magnum wanting a 5 rounds vs less with WM.

They all work, nothing will ever be lacking with a WM except an extra round or two should you need it, and at the cost of more recoil if that is an issue.

On twists, I also go std or faster but never slower or borderline. For Benchrest perfect twist might help, but I even use 70's in my 6BR at 3400fps in 8 twist, lots RPM's, bullets hold up, that is until they hit something, then its NICE to see what happens!

I would be interested in the 180's if left for the possibility I build a 338-08. Yes, 308 case.

I am in the south so that would be good for deer.

The 200 Btip outdoes the 180 after any distance and in my '06 shot 2909 with 1/2 moa accuracy.

Never could shoot my Magnum that well. It weighed about 7.5 vs 8lbs as my '06, but a naked 8 lb rifle is a tad more than I want, so the next one I build will be 7.5. The taper was .730 at 23", twist 10"

Read I believe on this site from a 358 shooter that a 12 twist is preferred in 35 as the factory made some 16 and might have been borderline with some heavies.

Never seen poor accuracy or bullet blow up with faster twist. Hyper fast varmint ctg such as 6/284 or 22/6mm with fast twist can/do blow light constructed light wt bullets.

My .02

On Bartsche comment, I hear you, but the 338/06 is at MY limit. Everyone has a different tolerance for recoil WITHOUT flinching. In a hunting rifle one MAY or MAY NOT let psychological fear of recoil affect a shot. It all depends. BUT for me, I had confidence in not only the accuracy but the killing power and range of my 338/06.

The guy who started BUZZTAIL wildcat brass company in Oregon told me years ago that his 338/06 had complete penetration 225 partition, at 370 yards or so on elk. Seems like it busted perhaps one or both shoulders, but his experience was that it was MORE than enough. Also, he had a friend with 338/06 AI that performed no better than a std chamber, cut and rechambered and had same or more velocity.

Ok, I need to stop now, we all agree 338's, 35's, and up all are great when it comes to anchoring big game.

It is personal choice, hell if I could hit with one, I would shoot a 338 Lapua or bigger, as some of the bigger 338's can reach WAY out there. Just check out longrangehunting.com

Place the shot and we are ALL effective.

By the way, did I mention the older nosler manual, Chub Eastman was on a moose hunt, jumped and dropped a Griz at 10 or so feet with a single 210 partition.

Oh, it was out of an '06 case. It gave him a renewed respect.

Just had to add that.

quote:

Except when the bullets spin their jackets off in mid air within 25 yards. Examples upon request. Roll Eyesroger

please consider this a request.
Thanks
Vapo

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Except when the bullets spin their jackets off in mid air within 25 yards. Examples upon request. Roll Eyesroger

please consider this a request.
Thanks
Vapo

I'll try to make it short. In 1966 I had a 6.5 Arasaka chambered by Ackley into a 6.5X.284. It had a 30" beautiful barrel with a fast if not a gain twist ( story unto itself). The first bullets I use were 140gr. probably Speers. At 100 yds nothing on the paper nothing hit the adobe hill. At 50 yards same thing. Coming in closer the target had a gray appearance with some small tares. Still closer there wer ragged tares. Closer ,Like 20 ft. there were comas and at about 10 ft. ragged round holes and powder residue. The Hornady and Norma 160 gr. bullets held together and were literaly dynoomite on mulies as was the Barnes' origianal 156 gr. bullet [Actually it was the Jack Whitworth bullet who worked with Fred.]

Every other bullet shead its Jacket.

My cousin just had that happen with some TNT bullets in one of his varmint rifles.

I'll bet if you check around,VD, you'll find that comet tails are not that rare. Subject for a thread???? roger

Roger, I've had personal experiences with .224 dia varmint bullets vaporizing.....not making it to the target.....comet trailing if you will.....

Some of these bullets are traveling at over 4,000'/sec and twisting once every 9 inches.....or 12". It takes a lot of jacket to tolerate that centrifugal force.

I understand the barrel length issue on the 6-284 and wonder what twist and velocity you was getting with it. What RPM was the bullet achieving?

These examples are not relevant to the .338-06 or .35 whelen as the velocities are a lot more like 2,600'/sec or so...the RPM being the cause of centrifugal force and that's the result of velocity and twist. Further the jackets on such bullets are substantially heavier than most varmint bullets.

Your example of the 6-284 probably also used a thin jacketed varmint bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Roger, I've had personal experiences with .224 dia varmint bullets vaporizingYour example of the 6-284 probably also used a thin jacketed varmint bullet.

6.5mmX.284 140 gr varmint bullet?????????? OK roger

quote:

There are those that want their .30 cal to twist 1:12.....why?...because they don't want to shoot 220 Grain bullets.....180s are OK with them
In all this there's no incidence of inadequate accuracy shooting 150 grain bullets in a 1:10 twist.

That's all very well true, but also fallacy. A 1 in 12" twist will shoot a 220 gr. round nose bullet quite well out to 200 yards. I can say this because I have done it. So much for that old wive's tale.
However, when it comes to the .35 Whelen, I feel that Col. Whelen and Jim Howe had it right when they specified a 1 in 12" twist. I have a friend who rebarreled a Ruger #1 with a 1 in 10" twist that he says is very accurate. I'm sure not going to doubt him. He gets his game with it every year.
Paul b.

I was doing som homework on the 338-06 last night and came up with a straight question. How does A-square figure their brass is worth more than the Weatherby brass made by Norma?

One is crappy the other is quality, and I supposed to pay more for the crappy? Haven't quite figured that out.

Heck, I was in Black Sheep a few months back and they were moving the Weatherby loaded ammo for a couple of dollars more than the price of the A-square brass.

Mystery to me!

??????Where are you buying your brass? I disagree with you on the Norma brass. I had a custom rifle proofed with Norma brass. IT BLEW UP because Norma's brass wouldnt hold up to Proof pressure! Put the gun back together and proofed it with A-square brass @ 80,000 psi. Whose brass is crappy again?

Norma brass can run very soft. I don't know who makes A-square, but I have had no problems w/ good ole WW or RP. Lapua would be my 1st choice though.

Schromf,
I don't put as much emphasis on caliber either...I would pick a rifle by its stock, fit, and finish, action, etc. more so than by caliber...I like nice rifles...

Caliber converstations/arguements leave me cold, as there is little difference in any of them within boundries...The small bores are all about equal, the mediums and the big bores are all about equal with each other, and in fact there is not a heck of a lot of difference in any of them....I would as soon shoot a deer with a 250 Savage as a 300 Win., a Buffalo with a 9.3x62 as a 505 Gibbs, the results are all about the same if the shot is placed right.

I think it makes for some interresting conversation and thats about it...

Now I am in trouble, I have just pissed on somebodys parade, sure as hell!! ..

quote:

Buffalo with a 9.3x62 as a 505 Gibbs, the results are all about the same if the shot is placed right.

I think it makes for some interresting conversation and thats about it...

Now I am in trouble, I have just pissed on somebodys parade, sure as hell!! ..

Ray,
Given the way you, at times, wax lyrical about the 10.75 I think you might have pissed on your own boots.



Getting my own boots wet is something I've done from time to time.

The 338-06 is a very good cartridge. I had one built on a pre-64 Mod 70 action. It is very similar in performance to the 318 Wesley Richards which is a very popular round in Africa. I wouldn't take it on a sheep or pronghorn hunt but for elk, moose, black bear . . . I think a nice choice.