Penetration is over-rated. That would be fine if you didn't need to trade something for it.

what am I missing; how can penetration be overated?

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
what am I missing; how can penetration be overated?

Why not use solids for everything then? All the penetration you can get. What do you give up for it?

And away we go!!


Small fry, you nailed me!

quote:

Originally posted by bluefish:
what am I missing; how can penetration be overated?

I think what the Dogster is saying is that bullets should not trump all others in superlatives with regards to penetration. There are a lot of choices for decent or adequate penetrating bullets. I couldn't tell you what the deepest penetrating soft point is for the 338 WM and it's doubtful anyone can.


Yup Ray

quote:

I started hunting late in life when retiring from the military in the early '90s. Bought a Ruger .338WM, topped it with a Leupold Vary-X III 2.5-8x, and that's what I have been using ever since. Can't beat the .338WM for hunting in Alaska where I live, but have settled with one bullet type and weight, the Barnes 225-grain 3-Shock tipped as an all around bullet.

That is pretty close to my experience in Africa. I started using a 338WM in '84, with a Leupold VX-III 2.5-8x and many bullets from 200gn Speer to 250 NP and Sierras, 275 Speer, and 300 Barnes (originals). The 250 NP was our bread and butter bullet at an un-chronographed but results conforming to 2700fps. Nowadays my son and I still like the 338 as a great go-to rifle, with the 225gn TTSX at about 2825-2840fps having become our optimum choice for one-load-for-all. Penetration, accuracy, impact smack, guaranteed bullet integrity, high BC and high down-range energy make it an ideal load. Our current Tikka 338WM carries a Nikon Inline 3-9 which has become our favorite scope. We may carry a 416 Rigby (also loaded to 2825fps with 350TTSX) more often than the 338, but that does not diminish the sterling qualities of the 338 in our eyes. A person could hunt the world with it.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

I started hunting late in life when retiring from the military in the early '90s. Bought a Ruger .338WM, topped it with a Leupold Vary-X III 2.5-8x, and that's what I have been using ever since. Can't beat the .338WM for hunting in Alaska where I live, but have settled with one bullet type and weight, the Barnes 225-grain 3-Shock tipped as an all around bullet.

That is pretty close to my experience in Africa. I started using a 338WM in '84, with a Leupold VX-III 2.5-8x and many bullets from 200gn Speer to 250 NP and Sierras, 275 Speer, and 300 Barnes (originals). The 250 NP was our bread and butter bullet at an un-chronographed but results conforming to 2700fps. Nowadays my son and I still like the 338 as a great go-to rifle, with the 225gn TTSX at about 2825-2840fps having become our optimum choice for one-load-for-all. Penetration, accuracy, impact smack, guaranteed bullet integrity, high BC and high down-range energy make it an ideal load. Our current Tikka 338WM carries a Nikon Inline 3-9 which has become our favorite scope. We may carry a 416 Rigby (also loaded to 2825fps with 350TTSX) more often than the 338, but that does not diminish the sterling qualities of the 338 in our eyes. A person could hunt the world with it.

Have you shot Cape Buffalo with it?

Yes.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Yes.

Nice!! I've always wanted that question answered.
Was it a dramatic affair or same old, same old, shoot and gut it?

Well I did built a .338 with a long throat and used a .375 Swift bottom metal, and I can seat the big 300 .338 deep in its case and it functions well and shoots under an inch..It will maintain its velocity way out yonder and surely it will out penetrate the Accubond in my standard .338, and it will definatly duplicate a 340 Wby if I load it to a safe max..Then I could have rechambered it to a .340 cheaper I suppose..

Anyway, when elk season rolled around I grabbed my old 338 WM, Ruger African, and headed to Colorado and shot a big cow at 356 yards off hand with a 210 Nosler, she went 20 yards and expired...

So smallfry, there ya go! it is what it is is all I can say!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Well I did built a .338 with a long throat and used a .375 Swift bottom metal, and I can seat the big 300 .338 deep in its case and it functions well and shoots under an inch..It will maintain its velocity way out yonder and surely it will out penetrate the Accubond in my standard .338, and it will definatly duplicate a 340 Wby if I load it to a safe max..Then I could have rechambered it to a .340 cheaper I suppose..

Anyway, when elk season rolled around I grabbed my old 338 WM, Ruger African, and headed to Colorado and shot a big cow at 356 yards off hand with a 210 Nosler, she went 20 yards and expired...

So smallfry, there ya go! it is what it is is all I can say!!!

Ha yup I like the 210 NP! Great bullets. As far as wdly's go, I still load up some of the 250 gr RN for kicks. Great load to carry when I am out berry pick'n

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
Additionally, I hear all the time that my 338 Federal won't do anything that the 308 won't do. I guess by that logic, the 308 won't do anything the 7-08 won't do, which won't do anything the 260 Rem won't do, which won't do anything the 243 Win won't do. Basically, there is no real difference between the 243 and 338 Federal.

Are you serious?

I shot the .270 for years. Then I came to realise that there really is no substitute for frontal area in killing power. The .338 caliber is the minimum I will now use for any big game, be it deer or moose. If you can't handle the recoil then go with the 338 Federal. If you want a bit flatter trajectory then the 338 Win. Mag. with 185 TTSX's is the ticket while still keeping the recoil down.

Yes, diameter counts.

Another thing I can't figure out is why anyone would choose a .300 Win Mag. over the .338 Win. Mag?

The .300 recoil snaps like an angry pitbull while the .338 is a "push" on the shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by ar corey:
Another thing I can't figure out is why anyone would choose a .300 Win Mag. over the .338 Win. Mag?

The .300 recoil snaps like an angry pitbull while the .338 is a "push" on the shoulder.

The 300 is a great cartridge. I don't shoot it much but never the less I think it's effective. I am not one to shoot big game at really long ranges so the 300 doesn't offer me much over the 30-06 or 338. I shoot mostly 200s out of my 300. Even at 500-600 yards the 300 doesn't offer much in terms of trajectory over the 338. I don't/haven't/don't care to shoot game at 500 anyways.

What I can't figure out....is why anyone would want a 338 when they can have a 375 (H&H or Ruger).


Especially with todays bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Eastcoaster:
What I can't figure out....is why anyone would want a 338 when they can have a 375 (H&H or Ruger).


Especially with todays bullets.

It's the old 270 vs. 30-06 debate with the tune raised an octave.
It's the old "little bit flatter" vs. "little bit more diameter" debate over similar sectional densities. I doubt if the animals can tell the difference.

I truly admire both the 338WM and 375R for packing a lot of punch into easy carrying rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Eastcoaster:
What I can't figure out....is why anyone would want a 338 when they can have a 375 (H&H or Ruger).


Especially with todays bullets.

Why not have both? Why make it into am either/or scenario? You're essentially saying if you buy one or the other, that's it. Also, for those who have just one or the other and choose say a 338, well I guess they are free to choose. Both are great cartridges.

Gentlemen: Had both....superfluous. One is enough. I can only hunt with one at a time.

I am a 375 fan.

quote:

Originally posted by Eastcoaster:
Gentlemen: Had both....superfluous. One is enough. I can only hunt with one at a time.

I am a 375 fan.

Well then, that settles it for everyone!

If they renamed it the 338/458 Wildcat, everyone would be scrambling to get one :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
If they renamed it the 338/458 Wildcat, everyone would be scrambling to get one :-)

No, you got to give it a 28" barrel with a rail, a 25x scope, a USB port and casters on the front and back of it. You then hafta say the military wants to use it so it must be good.

For 338s the win mag is a great pick

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:

quote:

Originally posted by Eastcoaster:
Gentlemen: Had both....superfluous. One is enough. I can only hunt with one at a time.

I am a 375 fan.

Well then, that settles it for everyone!

small fry: I never mentioned "everyone"....I just mentioned "me".

quote:

Originally posted by Eastcoaster:

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:

quote:

Originally posted by Eastcoaster:
Gentlemen: Had both....superfluous. One is enough. I can only hunt with one at a time.

I am a 375 fan.

Well then, that settles it for everyone!

small fry: I never mentioned "everyone"....I just mentioned "me".

Redeem yourself, not for owning a 375 but for getting rid of your 338. Now go and buy a 338 win mag.

Having owned a 338WM for more than 25 years, it is truly my favourite for big deer. In fact, I have 3 338 cal rifles, and only 1 300 cal rifle. My 300WM gets chosen slightly less than either my 338-06, 338WM or 338Edge. I see no real difference in killing power, it's just a personal preference and gives me confidence.
BTW, I also own a 375 Weatherby, it has the same trajectory as my 338 in all intents and purposes. It definately touches everything noticeably harder, even deer.

Cheers.

To clear the air on penetration with the .338 the best penetrating soft point bullet is the 210 Nosler and the 250 gr. Nosler, they are exactly the same in recovery box and game as far as I can tell. I suspect the 210 uses its velocity to penetrate the partition and the 250 gr. uses its weight and they balance out, at least that's my guess.

That said the best balanced bullet in the .338 Win. is likely to be the 225 gr. Nosler or Accubond IMO...Ill use the Accubond this comng year.

This years elk at a lasered 351 yards best I recall, was with a 210 Nosler at 3010 FPS.
Broke the left shoulder and left about a 3" exit hole..All I found was a very thin wedding ring of a recovered bullet..strange and I have no clue how it happened other than perhaps the frontal portion blew off leaveing the ring behind?? anyway it was unusual for sure. Internal damage was great and the exit hole left a good blood trail..Satisfactory results for sure.

quote:

Have you shot Cape Buffalo with it?

quote:

yes

Nice!! I've always wanted that question answered.
Was it a dramatic affair or same old, same old, shoot and gut it?

I suppose it was a 'same old, same old', except that shooting a buffalo always has a little extra adrenalin and care going into the overall game plan. So anchoring a bull in a mud hole and following with a shot between the eyes can feel dramatic. The 338 winMag does everything except meet legal requirements in a country that demands "375" or "9.3". The 338WM can better the 3900 ftlbs of some countries. Its an extremely well-balanced round and nowadays the 225 TTSX just brings out the best in it.

Now where to start I think I am going to leave my 338 home this year and go on my Montana hunt with my .257 rob.

If elk or bear were included I most likely would take the 338 or 300WM.

But for deer the Rob should do just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:
I don't/haven't/don't care to shoot game at 500 anyways.

I don't shoot past 300 yards. That makes things generally easy.

Buy a Leupold LR reticle hunting scope. Sight the bottom dash in at exactly 300 yards. Then determine your regular center reticle zero by walk up. Deadly combination of choice, and quick. Put the money you saved on the scope(a VX-2 is adequate)into a hardy rangefinder.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Have you shot Cape Buffalo with it?

quote:

yes

Nice!! I've always wanted that question answered.
Was it a dramatic affair or same old, same old, shoot and gut it?

I suppose it was a 'same old, same old', except that shooting a buffalo always has a little extra adrenalin and care going into the overall game plan. So anchoring a bull in a mud hole and following with a shot between the eyes can feel dramatic. The 338 winMag does everything except meet legal requirements in a country that demands "375" or "9.3". The 338WM can better the 3900 ftlbs of some countries. Its an extremely well-balanced round and nowadays the 225 TTSX just brings out the best in it.

Thank you!

quote:

Originally posted by JeffreyPhD:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
you really don't have to compare calibers, just use good old fashion common since. On Plains game any caliber from about a .270 to a 375 works just fine, and in the real world you would have a real problem telling one from the other based on what you saw and the results.

We have all these calibers because its fun and games..

Dangerous game? same deal anything from a .375 to a 500 N.E., the difference is much less than the printed word would make one think. but then what would we have to write about.

That would be so boring. We'd all just shoot 30-06s and 375s. Might as well play shuffleboard.

From my limited experience playing shuffleboard I would say following up dangerous game with a 30-06, 338 or 375 is a lot less boring !

Back in 1988 I took a plains game safari plus buffalo and lion. I didn't get buffalo or lion although we tried and I turned down two lions. One a scruffy necked teenage male the other a large female. Anyway I'm getting away from the topic. I took a 338WM loaded with 250 NP and a 375 H&H loaded with 270 gr. WW Powerpoints. I took 5 animals with each rifle. I could not tell any difference in killing power between the two. They both did a bang up job, especially on the larger antelope and 2 zebras.

Well I'm a recent convert to the .338. A couple months ago I bought a used 1965 Winchester model 70 from a guy my brother works with. He has had since it was new and did a lot hunting with it. It shows it too. After disassembly I was surprised how clean it was. The previous owner obviously took excellent care of his equipment even if the outside doesn't show it. A lot of the blueing is gone and the stock has its share of dings and dents.

I took it out shooting to day with some factory Barnes 225 gr TTSX ammo. All I can say is I think I'm going to like this rifle. After sight in I shot a group that was easily under an inch. Say what you want about those post 64 m70's with their stamped checkering and none to pretty finish on the metal but I do believe this ones a keeper.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Back in 1988 ... I took a 338WM loaded with 250 NP ... did a bang up job, especially on the larger antelope and 2 zebras.

I have a lot of memories from the 80's with the .338" 250 NP. Great load, great results.
Today we've stepped down in weight to the .338" 225 TTSX. Same results, with a smidgin flatter trajectory and higher BC. A person can do a lot of hunting with a good bullet at 2800-2850fps.

I am not a long range shooter and prefer the 338 Win over the 300 Win. Also not a believer in overkill, nor the "knock-down power", nor every shot is a DRT. I am a fan of 375's.
With that said, I am a big fan of the 338 Win and 225 TSX. in my rifle that combo is easy to shoot and is amply accurate. And sample of one, works extremely well on moose. I have varied interests in rifles and cartridges, but if only one rifle it would be a 338 Win Mag. To me it is the 30-06's bigger brother.
I am not going to Africa, though do use 375's and 416's here in Alaska, hell even got a 458 or two. Not required, but I like them. So far, from what I have seen, the 338 works just as well. A good bullet, well placed shot, dead animal; which can be said of many cartridges.
I would take the 338 Win Mag on any hunt in North America. Though confess, in thicker stuff I do prefer larger bores where bears are a concern. But I admit, that is more psychological than fact based.
The 338 Win Mag is my choice of the all-around cartridge.

-------------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:
Once again to keep things lively, I thought we should celebrate this fine cartridge in discussion. The good, the bad, and the experances should all be shared . I've always been quite fond of the 338 Win Mag and have found it to be an effective cartridge for reasonable ranges. Over the years I have seen a pattern on Internet forums when a person suggests they want a 338 Win Mag... respondents drop a proverbial DUECE over the suggestion. The scenario goes something like this: Guy says he has a 30-06, 270 or some equivalent and says he wants a medium bore magnum. He suggests an intrest in a 300 WM, 338 WM, or 375 H&H. People start climbing out of the woodwork saying... "A 338 won't do anything a 300 won't do" nevermind the guy has a 30-06 already. Or, "If you get a 338 over a 375 you'll never be able to go to Africa" which is one of the funniest. And finally the sympathetic guilt ridden response of... "If you get a 338 win mag you can always load it down to a 338-06"
It's amazing to me how many people choke up over the thought of owning one. Many people go down the 338 Win Mag route and often give them up albeit with respect.
What are some of your experances, good or bad? I would like to hear.

quote:

Originally posted by ldmay375:
I am not a long range shooter and prefer the 338 Win over the 300 Win. Also not a believer in overkill, nor the "knock-down power", nor every shot is a DRT. I am a fan of 375's.
With that said, I am a big fan of the 338 Win and 225 TSX. in my rifle that combo is easy to shoot and is amply accurate. And sample of one, works extremely well on moose. I have varied interests in rifles and cartridges, but if only one rifle it would be a 338 Win Mag. To me it is the 30-06's bigger brother.
I am not going to Africa, though do use 375's and 416's here in Alaska, hell even got a 458 or two. Not required, but I like them. So far, from what I have seen, the 338 works just as well. A good bullet, well placed shot, dead animal; which can be said of many cartridges.
I would take the 338 Win Mag on any hunt in North America. Though confess, in thicker stuff I do prefer larger bores where bears are a concern. But I admit, that is more psychological than fact based.
The 338 Win Mag is my choice of the all-around cartridge.

-------------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:
Once again to keep things lively, I thought we should celebrate this fine cartridge in discussion. The good, the bad, and the experances should all be shared . I've always been quite fond of the 338 Win Mag and have found it to be an effective cartridge for reasonable ranges. Over the years I have seen a pattern on Internet forums when a person suggests they want a 338 Win Mag... respondents drop a proverbial DUECE over the suggestion. The scenario goes something like this: Guy says he has a 30-06, 270 or some equivalent and says he wants a medium bore magnum. He suggests an intrest in a 300 WM, 338 WM, or 375 H&H. People start climbing out of the woodwork saying... "A 338 won't do anything a 300 won't do" nevermind the guy has a 30-06 already. Or, "If you get a 338 over a 375 you'll never be able to go to Africa" which is one of the funniest. And finally the sympathetic guilt ridden response of... "If you get a 338 win mag you can always load it down to a 338-06"
It's amazing to me how many people choke up over the thought of owning one. Many people go down the 338 Win Mag route and often give them up albeit with respect.
What are some of your experances, good or bad? I would like to hear.

Brave admitting you like the 338 over the 300 . I like and own both but for me, the 300 has doesn't have advantages I can really appreciate over the 338. Cost of reloading is legitimate but other than that there isn't much. I shoot the front half of 1200 yards and cartridges like the 270, 30-06 and 338 WM suit me just fine. Wouldn't get rid of my 300 though

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:

quote:

Originally posted by ldmay375:
I am not a long range shooter and prefer the 338 Win over the 300 Win. Also not a believer in overkill, nor the "knock-down power", nor every shot is a DRT. I am a fan of 375's.
With that said, I am a big fan of the 338 Win and 225 TSX. in my rifle that combo is easy to shoot and is amply accurate. And sample of one, works extremely well on moose. I have varied interests in rifles and cartridges, but if only one rifle it would be a 338 Win Mag. To me it is the 30-06's bigger brother.
I am not going to Africa, though do use 375's and 416's here in Alaska, hell even got a 458 or two. Not required, but I like them. So far, from what I have seen, the 338 works just as well. A good bullet, well placed shot, dead animal; which can be said of many cartridges.
I would take the 338 Win Mag on any hunt in North America. Though confess, in thicker stuff I do prefer larger bores where bears are a concern. But I admit, that is more psychological than fact based.
The 338 Win Mag is my choice of the all-around cartridge.

-------------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:
Once again to keep things lively, I thought we should celebrate this fine cartridge in discussion. The good, the bad, and the experances should all be shared . I've always been quite fond of the 338 Win Mag and have found it to be an effective cartridge for reasonable ranges. Over the years I have seen a pattern on Internet forums when a person suggests they want a 338 Win Mag... respondents drop a proverbial DUECE over the suggestion. The scenario goes something like this: Guy says he has a 30-06, 270 or some equivalent and says he wants a medium bore magnum. He suggests an intrest in a 300 WM, 338 WM, or 375 H&H. People start climbing out of the woodwork saying... "A 338 won't do anything a 300 won't do" nevermind the guy has a 30-06 already. Or, "If you get a 338 over a 375 you'll never be able to go to Africa" which is one of the funniest. And finally the sympathetic guilt ridden response of... "If you get a 338 win mag you can always load it down to a 338-06"
It's amazing to me how many people choke up over the thought of owning one. Many people go down the 338 Win Mag route and often give them up albeit with respect.
What are some of your experances, good or bad? I would like to hear.

Brave admitting you like the 338 over the 300 . I like and own both but for me, the 300 has doesn't have advantages I can really appreciate over the 338. Cost of reloading is legitimate but other than that there isn't much. I shoot the front half of 1200 yards and cartridges like the 270, 30-06 and 338 WM suit me just fine. Wouldn't get rid of my 300 though

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps not that brave, I also own a couple of 300 Winchesters and a 300 WBY, think both are great cartridges, and I do appreciate their achievable ballistic capabilities.
But, for my hunting distances their greatest is lost on me. And the sedate 338 Win works just right.
Things may change as to using the 300's. They can cover use for lots of game animals and do a great job. As a one rifle for all, I would still prefer a 338 Win.
An enigma, I had rather have a 7mm for smaller stuff and something larger for the bigger stuff, regarding the 300's. The 338, I actually use 375's more, but consider the 338 a better all-around cartridge.
I suppose a defensible argument can be made for most cartridges. I am pretty much a one bullet for cartridge type guy. 225 TSX for 338 Win, though have some 225 TTSX that do have a better BC. In 375's I use 270 TSX, though the 250 TTSX and 250 GMX seem to be great bullets also. The 300's, I have not decided my intended purpose of use, which could vary between 165's to 180's.
Hell, I even have a 325 WSM, to split the difference between the 300 & 338. Now there is a debate starter the 8mm Winchester. You catch flak from 300 & 338 camps with the mere mention of the 325. I really like this cartridge also.

Got some flack over the 300 gr. Woodleighs in my .338 Win, and granted it does well with 210s and 250s won't argue, but I am pretty sure the nay sayers have actually shot game with the 300 gr. Woodleigh PP in the .338..Flat shooting, I wouldn't know, but I shot a Bison at 100 yards, an elk at 200 yards and a cape buffalo at 100 yards, and a lot of larger PG animals using both the RN and the PP and the kills were all impressive to be sure..I suggest one try them then make their own determination. Its as good a bullet at 300 yards as any other bullet, is it better, I wouldn't swear to it, but as to penetration, its as good as a 210 or 250 Nosler partition but not much if at all better..However an expanded RN is as big as a 50 cent piece with ragged wings and internal damage is awesome and blood trails are always excellent, The PP has more penetration then the RN.

I won't go so far as to say its the best bullet in the .338 win. but its as good as any IMO..I look forward to shooting game with the 300 gr. Accubond in my long magazine and long throated .338 Win, its fast and it should shoot flat as a flitter and hit like a sledge hammer at long range is my guess..

All Im saying is I like the .338 and Im going to try every bullet their is if possible, that's part of the enjoyment for me.

Ray,
I've shot the 300 Woodleigh .338" at paper but have to confess that I've only shot the old Barnes 'original' 300 grain at game. That was in the 80's. Meanwhile ...

quote:

I like the .338 and Im going to try every bullet their is if possible, that's part of the enjoyment for me.

Have you tried the 225 grain TTSX? It seems to do a lot of internal damage, but I can't say I've recovered one yet.
You may like its BC .514, keeping most of its energy to hit hard at any distance.