I know we have been discussing the "Short Mag" issue alot here lately but, I was wondering about the 7 mm WSM.
Is it as close to the 7 rem mag as the 300WSM vs 300 WM is?
Have any of you taken game w/ this cart.?
Performance? Accuracy?
I love my 7 Rem Mag. but, I have never been able to get beter than .8" groups at a 100. I know, those are not bad at all but, This 300 WSM will make one hole. I was just wondering if the 7 WSM had the accuracy advantage also?
Thanks,
Reloader
Posts: 4146 | Location: North Louisiana | Registered: 18 February 2004
I have been shooting a SS M70 Classic in 7mm WSM since 10/02. It's a good cartridge and the only challanges with it are rifle related such as the out of round chamber that I just discovered.
My 7mm WSM will shoot up to three shots into one hole at 200 yds. If this is cartridge related I am not sure but I am not an "inherent accuracy" theorist.
There have been topics by Mule Deer (John Barness) saying that the 7mm RM is down loaded by the factorys, as lab techs say, due to it's producing extreme pressure spikes. The 7mm RM's that I have owned had sloppy chambers and adequate accuracy. I never had a pressure spike with a 7mm RM and I have some data saved on that.
I look at the 7mm Magnums this way. If I want to shoot a 140 gr bullet fast then the 7mm WSM does a pretty good job and the rifle does not have to be all that big and heavy.
If I want a big bullet going fast way down down range then there are plenty of 300 mags around and the extra rifle weight will be welcome.
I know that the authority on such matters (Bob Hagel) shot a 7mm Mashburn Super but that may have been just because!
I bought my first 7mm Remington Magnum in 1977, and I've owned a bunch of them in the years since. Only a couple -- out of more than twenty rifles -- were disappointing in terms of accuracy and velocity. The vast majority shot minute-of-angle groups and sometimes much better.
Most of the time, I could get over 3100 fps. out of 150-154 gr. bullet loads; over 3000 fps. out of 160 gr. bullet loads; and between 2900 and 3000 fps. out of 175 gr. bullet loads. I've never felt under-gunned on mule deer or elk with the 7mm Remington.
One of my friends has been shooting a 7mm Rem. Mag. for some thirty years, and he's filled a trophy room with it. These trophy critters range in size from Coues deer to Alaska moose, and from Salt's dik dik to Lord Derby's eland. I've never seen a target from his rifle that was any smaller than 1" in size, yet that kind of accuracy was been plenty good enough for anything he's hunted for some three decades, and that damned belt hasn't caused him any grief that he can put a finger on. Come to think of it, he hasn't griped about the bolt-throw being a half-inch too long, either!
7mm-08 284 win 7mm mag 7mm ultra.....yeah I'll prolly own a WSM just cause I think the cartridge is sexy. I've owned a half a dozen 7 mags.......never had one that wasn't a shooter. 6 of 1 half a dozen of another. Bottom line is if you want a 7 WSM get one....haven't heard any negatives on accuracy and have seen some customs show up at bench rest competitions.
Posts: 411 | Location: Southeastern Pa | Registered: 30 September 2002
I think the short magnums have an accuracy advantage for two reasons: 1., they have shorter, fatter powder columns, providing more uniform ignition; 2., they are built on shorter, stiffer actions.
BUT, the old veracities still apply to them. One is that a larger capacity case will always be capable of greater velocities than smaller ones in the same caliber. For example, the only way a .300 EWSM can equal the velocity performance of the standard .300 Win. Mag., is by underloading the standard round!
Quote: I have been shooting a SS M70 Classic in 7mm WSM since 10/02. It's a good cartridge and the only challanges with it are rifle related such as the out of round chamber that I just discovered.
My 7mm WSM will shoot up to three shots into one hole at 200 yds. If this is cartridge related I am not sure but I am not an "inherent accuracy" theorist.
Three shots into 1 hole at 200 yards and the chamber is out of round..wonder what it will do when that condition is corrected ? I have one also and it seems to shoot factory ammo better then any 7 Rem mag I have ever handloaded and that was a wide range of guns that i owned/own .
Posts: 1779 | Location: Southeast | Registered: 31 March 2003
Allen, I think we have all identified you as biased against the short mags.
By your own insistance on much more velocity and power than most require and your dismissal of any advantage of improved accuracy, I think I have an idea of your skill as a rifleman.
Posts: 285 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 01 June 2003
Come on now. Any accuracy improvement of the short mags is too small to be consequential to a hunter. People that like burning lots of ammo from the bench get excited about stuff that just doesn't seem significant to a hunter.
Posts: 3174 | Location: Warren, PA | Registered: 08 August 2002
To me the difference between a 3.9" group and a 8" group at 400 yds is signficant. Both rifles from WalMart, a M70 7mmWSM and a M700 7mmRM. Factory ammo for both, same day, same shooter.
Posts: 285 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 01 June 2003
I will stick with my old obsolete 7mm Rem mag, 3/4" groups at 200yds, and every place in my part of the country sells ammo. I have never seen a 7mm WSM cartridge for sale in any retail store!!!!
Posts: 3097 | Location: Louisiana | Registered: 28 November 2001
So your premise is, if someone doesn't buy into the new short-mag business, somehow they're just not playing the game when it comes to accuracy, and their skill as a rifleman is now open to question. Well just who the hell are you?
As if fine accuracy and skilled marksmanship simply wasn't possible before the short mags came into being! Whoever buys into this type of nonsense is one green, stupid pilgrim!
You're so full of your own wet dreams over these cartridges that I guess you're willing indulge in ignorant speculations, foolishly shoot your mouth to people you don't know the first thing about, and pass around insults to anyone who doesn't buy into your new-found religion.
I would bet in hunting weight factory made guns the short mag won't shoot a bit better than a 7 Mag. I know long sloping cartridges expecially with a belt are not going to be accurate- perfect example .375 H&H, I've yet to see one of these that won't shoot, but I know they can't be inherently accurate, almost any of these will shoot 1-1.25 with hunting bullets. Another old fashioned inaccurate cartridge .220 Swift. I'm not saying the WSM cartridges are bad, but if you think short and fat will cut groups in half, you're short on experience and long on BS.
Posts: 2788 | Location: gallatin, mo usa | Registered: 10 March 2001
SDGunslinger, it is true that to compare only 2 rifles is statistically insignificant. I should have included more info in my post. I will do so now.
My experience with the 7mmRM shows that 8" groups at 400 yds with factory ammo is normal now and much better than when I begin hunting and shooting. My experience with the 7WSM is too limited to know what is average. Perhaps with Savage99's and SempreElk's groups and anyone else who posts results we can begin to form an opinion of the new cartridge and available ammo.
Also, I will make one very general statement that you are all free to disagree with and post your own observations. The RM was a Remington rifle and the WSM was Winchester. Based on what I have observed, both company's average rifles or more or less equal. However, Remington is more likely to produce an outstanding barrel while Winchester is more likely to produce an unsatisfactory one.
If anyone is wondering, my rifle is built on a Winchester crf action.
Posts: 285 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 01 June 2003
Allen, I am the man who is just needling you a little for fun. I am also a man who has never used or needed a second shot on any big game animal with any centerfire rifle or pistol.
By your reaction I must have struck a sensitive nerve. You have indicated in other posts that you can only succeed with premium bullets, have needed more than one shot on numerous occasions, that every last fps is important to you but improved accuracy does not matter in the least. Do not get so heated, just tell me where I have misunderstood.
If you will send me a schedule of matches you plan to compete in, perhaps if any involve any shooting discipline I am interested in I can manage to enter one or two and you can have the opportunity to show me who is ignorant, lacks experience, or fits any of the other names you call those who disagree with you.
Rick
Posts: 285 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 01 June 2003
I wonder if Ruff really hunts or is just another pilgrim that wants to be the first kid on the block with the latest toy...... and then expect everyone to fall into line supporting his "wisdom". I may well be a luddite but the "new" shorties are gonna have to really glow in the dark before I cash in my 7RM for one. And it does a lot better than any 8" at 300 yards (I've never shot it at 400)but its an example of one that is important only to me. By the way Ruff, comparing the venue of bench to hunting is kinda far fetched. If you ever go hunting, you'll find that often the deer, antelope and elk don't hang around waiting for you to set up your wind flags.
Posts: 2037 | Location: frametown west virginia usa | Registered: 14 October 2001
Quote: I am also a man who has never used or needed a second shot on any big game animal with any centerfire rifle or pistol.
Man, not even a conceded naval aviator would make such an arrogant statementin public. Oh wait a minute, this is the internet and I can fly rings around Chuck Yeager and shoot elephants better than Bell! Are you a fighter pilot? jorge
Posts: 7149 | Location: Orange Park, Florida. USA | Registered: 22 March 2001
It is good to be humbled from time to time. Since I frequently need a second shot and had to fairly well riddle a couple of animals I must be a real dumbass compared to some folks.
Posts: 3174 | Location: Warren, PA | Registered: 08 August 2002
Sounds like another Zeiss/Swaro vs Leupold thread but only pertaining to Cartridges and is about as exciting and will like the aforementioned never be resolved. All I can say is if you don't own at least both of these cartridges your just spreading more hearsay. There is already too much hearsay in this world and it only gets multiplied by Al Gores invention. I guess the non short mag owners are offended that Winchester and Browning/Remington or whomever owns them is making a pile of money. That possibly the truth was stretched a little and doesn't the truth get stretched with every new gizmo out there ie Leupold with their 98%light transmission BS . I think they call that marketing. I also guess that its evil for firearms manufacturers to make money and better if they lose money and then go out of business.
Posts: 1779 | Location: Southeast | Registered: 31 March 2003
Quote: Such a comparison of only two rifles is pretty much meaningless
A very sensible statement that anyone with any knowledge of firearms should agree with.
"A very sensible statement that anyone familiar with statistical sampling methods should agree with." This is the very reason I have no use for such publications as "GUN TESTS MAGAZINE", or any article published in a gun rag about a single example of any product.
I've been reading AD's post in here for quite a while. I have never perceived him as a hotdog nor a bullshit artist. From his post, I certainly get the impression that he knows what he's talking about. His problem, like mine, is he does not long suffer a fool, nor has he much patience with folks that make broad, sweeping conclusions based on examples of one. FYI, While it is true that trophy hunting MIGHT be a money game, competitive shooting is certainly an arms race of folks trying to buy their way into the winner's circle.
Posts: 2037 | Location: frametown west virginia usa | Registered: 14 October 2001
But you know what, testing a single example is a hell of a lot better than testing NO examples. You can't shoot 50 of the same rifle for a test. I would think that most of us are intelligent enough to know that a one or two gun test is representative if not conclusive.......DJ
Posts: 3976 | Location: Oklahoma,USA | Registered: 27 February 2004
I would disagree with you there about a one gun test. Even a blind hog gets an acorn once in awhile. Pulling 30 from the line and testing them all is minimum acceptable level to me.
Posts: 3174 | Location: Warren, PA | Registered: 08 August 2002
I have wanted a .284 Winchester custom rifle for years because it could be built on a lighter gun and be handier to carry in the mountains. Since Winchester came out with the 7MM WSM I have decided to go with it in a Classic. I don't think anyone could tell the diffrence in performance between the two in the field. If I had a 7MM Remington Mag that shot well I certainly wouldn't sell it to buy the short mag but I want a short mag in 7MM WSM and that's the end of the story. Try a WSM if you want one.
Chuck Nelson, Beemanmeme, Jorge, and others who took such exception to my using one shot per, It is understandable you need more info. I do not fire unless I am sure of the outcome, barring some new and unknown problem with rifle or ammo which has not occurred for me. My dad taught me you can only kill one animal one time. One shot elliminating oxygen intake or blood circulation has done that. More movement and noise might actually cause the animal to travel further.
I have more than a little experience hunting. I hunted with my dad near and away from home before joining the Marine Corps and a few times during my first few years in. I retired in 1995 and am now hunting again. No, I was not an aviator. The bulk of my career I spent with infantry regiments.
There is no wind flags where I hunt. In practice for tactical matches we have no wind flags, but there is a range flag well behind any firing position indicating firing is in progress. Perhaps you have not noticed vegitation moving with the wind?
For those who still wish to declare BS, I will be shooting tactical matches in Society Hill, Alabama this Summer. For you Allen Day, I am willing to travel and shoot F class, Tactical, or offhand Silhouette if you will post both our results on this board afterward.
Posts: 285 | Location: Alabama | Registered: 01 June 2003
Quote: For you Allen Day, I am willing to travel and shoot F class, Tactical, or offhand Silhouette if you will post both our results on this board afterward
I don't personally know either RuffHewn or Allen Day but I for one would like to see the results if this event was to happen.I am sure many other people would as well.
Posts: 3104 | Location: alberta,canada | Registered: 28 January 2002
You can take all the honors at target shooting you want -- the more the better -- and quite frankly, I wouldn't spend a dime to meet you anywhere for any reason.
But if you're interested in professional references who are familiar with my use of the rifle, just ask, and I'll supply all necessary contact info, plus books, videos, magazines, etc., that you can look up for yourself.
While you're at it, post some photos of your trophy room, and I'll do the same, and we'll see how much you've done with rifles besides punch paper.
Quote: While you're at it, post some photos of your trophy room, and I'll do the same, and we'll see how much you've done with rifles besides punch paper.
I actually had no favorite in this squabble until now.In all honesty ,I just wanted to see one of you knocked down a peg in a fair competition.However the size of ones trophy room is hardly a judge of ones skill as a shooter or hunter.With a large budget and enough time anyone can build a great trophy room even a person lacking in hunting and shooting skills.If however you both compared trophies taken on your own with no outfitters,guides or private ranches involved the results would be more a representation of each of your skills. The nice part about a shooting competition is that you can easily buy a top quality gun, but to win you actually have to shoot it well.
Posts: 3104 | Location: alberta,canada | Registered: 28 January 2002
You may be a good shooter, but anyone who says they've never used a second shot at game is a HUNTER of limited experience, I don't care how many matches, etc. you've been to. With perfect placement, they just don't always go down at the shot, no matter who you are. If you've never used a second shot, you've not shot much game.
Posts: 2788 | Location: gallatin, mo usa | Registered: 10 March 2001
Quote: I would disagree with you there about a one gun test. Even a blind hog gets an acorn once in awhile. Pulling 30 from the line and testing them all is minimum acceptable level to me.
I've owned a half a dozen 7 mags.......never had one that wasn't a shooter. 6 of 1 half a dozen of another. Bottom line is if you want a 7 WSM get one....haven't heard any negatives on accuracy and have seen some customs show up at bench rest competitions.
