I shot this group just yesterday @ 100.

It is a single six shot group.

After firing the 3rd round, I thought that maybe I pulled the 2nd round. So I fired the 4th, 5th and 6th.

Never saw this happened before. Figured you BR guys, do a lot more target analysis than I ever do.

Rifle is just a stock Browning X-bolt in 300 WSM, Barnes 168 TSXs, 66.5 grains of H4350.

Nothing unsual about the wind less than 7 mph. Probably waited a minute between shots.

Thanks for your thoughts, other than I drank too much coffee that morning and/or I am just a lousy shot

Posted this on the BR Forum but I think Medium Bores gets more traffic.

Your bullets are exiting the muzzle while the barrel is swinging. The benchrest adage is - "vertical stringing, more powder." I'd say you need to shoot an Audette ladder or something like it.

Bad day. If this is a proven load for your single shot, the group is way too good for a shot out barrel. When mine have "gone" it's dramatic.

New gun, this was just a random load that had been put together for another gun.

I realize it could be many things, but my question is does anything immediatley come to mind:

Is this a sign of heating up?

Bedding?

Inconsistent reloads?

Is this the only group of that load that shot this way?

If so, you have an n=1 and this may well be just a case of shit happening.

I'd want to see this repeated several times with the same rifle and load combination before spending much time analyzing and trying to correct it.

The rifle simply doesn't want to shoot that particular bullet into less than about 1 3/4 inch.

You essentially have two different three shot groups of approximately the same center to center spacing. The rifle is telling you to change the projectile and/or increase the powder charge.

Only group shot with this gun.

Load was just random since it was developed for another gun.


While it was only 1 event, it was just curios essentially two identical three shot groups but the order was not a three shot group.

You need to just shoot every other round out of the box.
Seriously, IME distinct groups like that usually indicate something is moving in the firearm. Check all of the usually suspects like mounts and bedding. If that doesn't tighten things up then further load development may make a difference.
I would not suspect barrel heating/touching because that usually causes the group to "walk".

It's up and down, up and down, up and down and moving to the right...if that happened to me I would first check ALL the screws, then the barrel channel(piece of card stock slid along the channel to find "high spots")...THEN my shooting...this is a perfect example of "loosing my bags", especially the rear one. Maybe the wind caused the "group?" movement or was it ME looking for "jerkers corner".

Actually...that's called a 2 and 1 group...doesn't matter if it's horizontal stringing or vertical stringing..or a 3 and 2 if you just have to shoot 5 shot groups and you get 3 in one hole and 2 in group another farther away....I see it almost every time I start load development for a new bullet/powder/rifle/primer...the group is telling you that some parameter isn't optimized, but you are close...that the barrel vibrations are spitting the bullet out at the top or bottom of the sign wave. A change in ANY ONE AT A TIME of the parameters...seating, powder, primer or bullet weight might bring the node to a null point and you find that bugholer group.

If you REALLY want to analyse, shoot that same load again MARKING EACH case as to shot number on the target and in rotation... at least twice more...THEN you can actually see which case did what or if you continue with the up/down bullet placement or not and just HOW the groups developed.

As it is there actually ISN'T anything to analyse other than a whole bunch of parameters all cobbled together with NOTHING to tie them together or compare to.

If this load was developed for another rifle and shot similar, I would say it just a beginning to a load development...IF it shot a one holer in that other rifle, I would say shoot a few more groups and start changing powder amounts and seating ONE PARAMETER AT A TIME...you have the beginnings of a super bugholer load.

NO FLAME OR DISS INTENDED but this a prime example of what happens too many times when shooters want to develop loads and start at then end rather than the beginning with a set of objectives and a beginning point.

Pick a begging point and work from there.

I hate that "do the ladder" BS...by doing so you take out the "brain work" and just follow along mindlessly...and WASTE A TON OF COMPONENTS along the way. Of course it works, it's been use long BEFORE Audette or whoever it was, put it on the net. BR shooters were using a form of it back in the late 50's - early 60's...I've been using a form of it ever since I learned HOW to use it and I use a form of it every time I build/buy a new shooter to develop loads.

EVERYONE has there way of doing things and will defend it to the death WITHOUT considering an alternative approach...this has been proven time and time again...JUST LOOK AROUND.

In todays world and with todays CNC machines MOST of the problem areas have been eliminated, like poor bullets, lousy primers, screwed up cases, and worthless barrels.

Pick a top load as most cartridges work better at/within maybe 10% of the top pressures...for a lot of reasons...shoot 3 shot groups...bench prep your components...KEEP GOOD NOTES, OTHERWISE HOW ARE YOU GOING TO KNOW which is what...start your seating 0.015" off the lands for the smaller cals and less for the larger ones...and MOST OF ALL...GO to a BR forum for advice on how to analyse a SET of targets...WAY too many "old timers" on AR blow off any kind of BR type of load development as a waste of time...and it is IF you are just looking for a "hunting load"...BUT if you are looking for an ACCURATE RIFLE you have to work for it and follow a basic set of proven rules...BR/LR shooters have been doing it for as long as I can remember.

Not bragging but I can usually come up with a bugholer group within about 20 shots...while breaking in a barrel.

The very best thing about the 'net is it's information...and the very worst thing is it's information overload and shooters grabbing that information but NOT knowing just HOW to use it.

Your target is a starting point...it gives you a modicum of information, some very good information if you want to use it as a beginning, or just a basically worthless bunch of holes if you dont.

Your choice...make it a good one.

Good Hunting.

Russ and Nonagonagin,

Thanks. There was nothing special about this load. Just had several of these loaded up and just wanted to see if they would shoot well in this rifles.

This was the first time this rifle has been shot.

So I will double check my screws and then do my regular work up routine which is OCW.

Thanks,

A. your head placement on the stock.
B. your load is on either side of a barrel node.
top, bottom, middle and your standard deviation is very close.

let's say it's the middle one but the sine [barrel vibration] is just hitting a touch low one shot and a touch high the next.

Mike, I have little doubt you know how to shoot, and yes, some days we shoot better than others. A couple of random thoughts.......

Possible parallax issue?
Were you battling mirage at all?

As you said, since it was a load for another rifle, could be several things.

Mike, I have a second question. How do other loads shoot in this rifle?

New scope too?

Let's see if I can answer the Qs.

1) New Rifle
2) New Scope and mounts
3) Only 1 other load shot thru the rifle. which was a grain less. 1 three shot group at .9
4) No mirage
5) 5 break in shots
6) 1 three shot group, that shot .9
7) Then these 6 shots.
8) Other group had essentially the same POI as this group.
9) Total of 14 shots thru this rifle.

A lot if the time, people will overlook the scope. Possibly the reticle mechanism is moving under recoil. If it's a new and untested scope, mount one that is a known good grouper and see If there's a difference. I've kept a test scope for years. It's an old Leupold mark IV in 16x, and it's dead nuts. I've detected a few "bad" scopes on customers' rifles this way.. Don't discount the possibility.

Are you annealing the necks to insure consistent neck tension shot to shot?

This was either new or once fired brass and I have never annealed necks in my life.

I usually loose brass by 3 loadings.

Some new rifles I've had shot worse than yours until sometime after 100 rounds were put through them. After that a cooled dirty barrel helped a lot. In fact during hunting season was over the rifles were not cleaned. roger

Reminds me of a group of art ( music) critics standing around some or other random painting or song and analyzing what the artist was trying to convey ..... only to find out later that the artist was not trying to convey anything at all !

My Analysis..... that rifle ! it does not like that particular load or that rifle..... and or it does not have the inherent ability to shoot tight groups..... and or it was just one of those shit days where the shooter was not up to it...... take your pick a single first off means jack squat !

If however after some time and some work it still does the same it's simply suffering the same old affliction many current American offerings suffer from ........ the lack of ability !

So I have a brand new 2018 X-bolt Eclipse in 6.5 creed...... brand new.... tried some off the shelf new age supposedly extended range hyper accurate etc etc ammo and the 100 yard groups.... same group ! I have 122 year old Rifles that will and does do better open sights at 100 yards and that is what is so disappointing about these new guns !

One load, new rifle randomly chosen and shot means -- absolutely nothing. (You don't even have data yet.)

Fellas,

I want to make sure I am clear. This post was just all about how odd (to me at least) this group of 6 shots was and how they alternately created 2 nearly identical .8 inch groups. I was merely curious as to whether or not something jumped out at somebody and I got some very good advice like double check all the screws etc.

As many have said it is only one group with with a random load could be anything or in essence nothing as I have done zero load development.

There is no worry or concern at this point.

The 6 shots themselves are only 1.8 and if I were to remove the 6th shot it's only 1.35.

The other random load shot 1.1.

I lost the majority of my guns (including a few customs) in a burglary about 10 years ago where thieves spent 3 days tearing apart my security closet with my crow bar and sledge hammer including a few customs. I replaced with factory rifles.

I don't think I have a factory rifle that I can't get to shoot to 1 1/8th or much better with load development. The majority of them shoot sub moa including a few in the .7-.8 range and a couple in the .5-.7 range.

My favorite factory stories are:

A) 2 BLRs that shot ~.85 with Barnes TSXs with the same load and shoot ~.5 with bergers.

B) A Savage model 10 youth for my GF that shoots .6 with factory Federal copper and GM Nat'l Match.

C) A Ruger 77 Tang Safety that shot .75 with factory ammo. Should of never sold that one.

With all the quality bullets and scopes today like Accubonds, Barnes TSXs, and Bergers plus easy access to load data and load development techniques; if a rifle won't shoot under an 1.5 MOA with load development, then I am more suspect of the shooter than the rifle.

If anybody needs a good load for the 30-06 with Barnes TSXs and H4350. PM me. I have one that shoots sub MOA in 3 different rifles. Prefer not to publish it as it is .7 over book max.

Todd,

You know I have some berger 180s coming and some CFE223 and some AA2520 that I plan on loading to a "sticky bolt" in my rem 700 308 and with the wind at my back and shooting down hill, I will you show you that my 308 can equal your 6.5 creed.

Here's something to think a bout...These groups were from a Ruger 223 factory SS, nothing special, 24" bbl...BUT well tuned system including all reloading components. the Pictures are long gone now...care of a miserable bitch of an ex-wife.

5 shot group measuring 0.125" CC, basically one hole...I had that group framed and hung on my front room wall PROMINENTLY...basically a conversation starter.

Right below and to the left was another group...SAME cases shot in the same order with the same benchrest prepped bullets, powder and primers out of the same boxes...identical in all respects as I could make them...shot a day later in almost the same conditions...that group was an almost perfect 1" circle and the bullets hit in a CC direction right around the clock...and to the right of that group was another group...shot a day later samo-samo with all the components, etc...ANOTHER 1...0.145" group. Damned thing just kept doing that...might go 3-4 days bugholing, then a couple days of 1" circles, no rhyme or reason. I NEVER tried to solve the conundrum...too scared to mess about with a good thing...it was my around the yard rat killer and I didn't want to fark it up...basically something I NEVER DO...I.E., "LEAVE THINGS ALONE".

I marked those cases, put all the reloading components in a separate box, left the barrel/rifle system as is...didn't shoot that rifle with any other component or clean the barrel until I shot up ALL the expendables...kept it in a padded rifle box and was VERY gentle with it until everything was used up...

After the bullets and primers were gone I just shot the HE** out of it as usual and it just kept shooting 3-5's with just about any brand of 40-55 gr bullet I fed it with one powder and BR primer brand...until the barrel went south... ...MANY rounds latter...it's a 20 Practical now.

I would be interested to see if you shot another group of say 12-15 rounds with the same components and setup, if the groups would continue to do that yo-yo thing...THAT WOULD TELL US SOMETHING...especially if you happen to mic the neck walls, weight sort the bullets, measure the ojives, etc, etc, etc...

Good Hunting

I do a bit of benchrest and have seen more than a few two group targets. Sometimes the cause of two group loads is parallax, but often it is caused simply by a pressure difference caused by seating depth. In some barrels extra bullet jump is a very good thing.

When all else fails have a known good shot try it and see what that group looks like. If your cheek weld is off you can shoot groups like that and you won't realize it.

That looks like a bedding issue to me. Either that or loose action screws.

Shooter error.

Dry fire the rifle in a steady hold while watching the reticle...does it jump? I had that phenomenon and it was the scope reticle that would jump between the two points.

Ahhhhh...PARALLAX...Absolutely....something I check for without thinking on new scopes and note it somewhere. You DON'T want to depend on the markings on the bell/knob of an adjustable parallax scope because they notoriously out of whack, I've found...I have a quite a few adj-parallel scopes from cheap to expensive and only one, an 40 odd year old Leupold 6.5 x 20, is spot on.

Many scopes are set for parallax free at a specific range, usually 100-150 yds for larger cal hunting scopes and 50-75 for 22 cal/small cal scope types and is noted in the fine print of the scopes paperwork.

You can check for parallax just by moving your eye(head) in a small circle and noting if the cross hairs AND target go round and round in OPPOSITE circles. You can compensate when targeting/load development by moving/holding the cross hair to either end of the movement and shooting the group at that point. You can find the total extent of the parallax by shooting a group ant each end of the movement then measuring the target...groups look JUST like Mikes group. Parallax USUALLY ISN'T a problem in hunting situations withing ~300 yads +/- 50 yds or so...the farther away the MORE pronounced the parallax...LR shooters are constantly watching out for it...at least I do.

See what happens when you get old...your mind just dis-remembers all kinds of things and remembers squat doodley... ...parallax did cross my mind but by the time the next sentence was spit out, parallax had disappeared into oblivion and stayed there.

Actually just changing primers can cause a group to go from bughole to POS...I have another story on that subject on a primer test I did umpteem years ago(along with many other BR folks) but Layne Simpson did a very nice article on that subject almost 20 years afterwards in Shooting Times...find it and read it...it's full of excellent information.

Something else to checkout ...or not...depending on interest.

Good Hunting

Well, I moved my head in circles and the reticle goes in circles the same as my head.

Also dry fired and no jump.

I have seen the up/down shift with shooters using bi-/multi-focals. That will induce some parallax.

Oh - and how did you know I wear progressive lenses.

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
Shooter error.

That was my thought. Sloppy technique, whether by a veteran shooter or a Tyro.

And the odds of the sloppy technique...

occurring on the 2nd shot

not occurring at all on the 3rd shot

occurring with the exact same variation on the 4th shot as on the 2nd shot

the 5th shot variation at first appearing to be its own type, but...

no wait, the 6th shot has the same variation to between from 2 and 4 as 5 does to 1 and 3.

The odds that this pattern of dispersion represents shooter error is very low in my view. I screw up all the time but this appears to be something.

I fired my 300 H&H the other day....ten shots....two distinct groups of about 1.5 inches about eight inches from each other.....

The groups were left and right....vertical of the two groups was identical.....I've never seen anything like this before.....I checked the scope mount screws and found them quite secure....I returned the scope to Leupold immediately for repair.

I'll let you know when it returns but since then have used an older Redfield.....the problem wasn't repeated.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
I fired my 300 H&H the other day....ten shots....two distinct groups of about 1.5 inches about eight inches from each other.....

The groups were left and right....vertical of the two groups was identical.....I've never seen anything like this before.....I checked the scope mount screws and found them quite secure....I returned the scope to Leupold immediately for repair.

I'll let you know when it returns but since then have used an older Redfield.....the problem wasn't repeated.

To eliminate potential error from the scope, get a Nikon.
However, shifting groups often mean that a bedding/re-bedding job is in order.

I've shot competition for 30 years and no disrespect intended but I've seen many groups that look just like yours and there was not any evidence of any equipment failure. It happens!

You have two very good groups separated vertically that indicates your tang screw may be loose or both screws loose, or extremely bad inletting, your action is rocking on a high spot..If you can tell me the order of all the shots I can tell you what the inletting problem is and Im sure its inletting as the two groups are similar to each other..the gun wants to shoot..Most stock makers know what it takes to make a gun shoot unless its the barrel, and in your case Im sure its not. I think a quick fix would be glass bedding. but Id use shims and find the sweet spot then glass it accordingly.

It pretty easy as a rule to determine the bedding problems by the size and contour of a group. There are 6 basic group sizes, one of them will tell the story that indicate the bedding problem...Don't recall where I got that print out, but Ive had it for years to assist me in stock making and it works. I can mail it to you, need your address in Boise.

Ray,

The shot numbers are marked on the photo.