The following picture shows two Impala 130gr .308 bullets fired into tightly bundled, gloss paper magazines.



Both bullets penetrated 15cm, but tumbled from about 14cm to leave bullet length key holes in the magazines. Note how much the bullets were bend in this process.

In the middle is the remains of a .308 150gr Claw bullet fired into the same material - penetrated 8cm and very little left of it. This is not intended as a comparison between the different types of bullets, but only to give an idea what the different types of bullets are up to in the same target material.

After the above I'm not confident in using the Impala's in a hunt.

Anybody had hunting experience with Impala or any other make solids in a real hunting situation?

Pointed solids have always had a rep. for tumbling on impact. Dry paper is very hard on bullet, try soaking them through w/ water first. I have found RN solids or blunt nose solids to give a straighter line of penetration.

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quote:

This is not intended as a comparison between the different types of bullets, but only to give an idea what the different types of bullets are up to in the same target material.

You say ... "in the same target material" which is "fired into tightly bundled, gloss paper magazines" and not intended to be a comparison of the different bullets, but then you draw the conclusion:

"After the above I'm not confident in using the Impala's in a hunt."

So, dry glossy paper that is tightly bundled is being compared with flesh?

I would agree that one should not hunt dry glossy magazines per your original premise ... "but only to give an idea what the different types of bullets are up to in the same target material."

Could you tell us how 14 cm of straight travelling in dry paper (just before tumbling) is related to the hunting of game" Then, the significance of the bullet tumbling for 1 cm to come to a stop at 15 cm. What does this mean? That the bullet ran out of momentum at 15 cm and tumbled during the last 6.7% (between 14 & 15 centimeters) of its journey? Could this be construed as normal behaviour from a mechanical point of view for a solid spitzer type bullet?

I think Kobus du Plessis should come in here and relate some practical field results with us, rather than us speculating this subject to death.

I have seen the deadly effect of a 458 Impala bullet that was shot through the engine room of a Blue Wildebeest, but will save this story for a later time. Will ask my friend Rudi Campbell to write the story so long.

Chris

Tumbling is good in a non-dangerous game situation. It's how a solid causes a larger permanent wound channel. Governments pay big bucks to develop FMJs that tumble or break up on impact to skirt the ban on softs in combat.

All of the current sub-sonic game rounds use long-for-caliber bullets just barely stabilized enough to fly true but unstable enough to tumble upon impact (300 Whisper in it's original 240 gr MatchKing loading, 458 SOCOM in 500 gr loading, etc.).

The results of a quick visit to the shooting range this morning, 20 December 2005 are pictured below:


Note: Small pieces of 'prestik' was used on the bottoms of all three the GS Custom HV bullets to keep 1 and 2 upright - 3 could stand on its own though.

Three GS Custom HV 130gr .308 bullets fired over a distance of 100 m into tightly bundled, gloss paper magazines -
Results:
1. Bullet on the left penetrated 17cm without any sign of tumbling - an extra large penetration channel was made by this bullet.

2. The bullet in the middle penetrated 18.5cm, after it picked up a piece of 2mm thick galvanised wire with which the magazines were tightened together - piece of wire clearly visible in the bullet's nose and this may have caused the odd shape of this bullet. However, it still ended nose first and no tumbling whatsoever was visible. The large penetration channel ended with a cut shaped top part probably caused by the one outstanding petal wing visible in the above picture.

3. On the right of the picture you can see the third bullet had lost all it's petals, penetrated 20cm and stopped nose first. Left still a large pentration channel of roughly half an inch in diameter and absolutely no sign of tumbling.

On the far right once again the remains of a .308 150gr Claw bullet after having again penetrated 8cm and all that was left is practically a bend flat skin. A much smaller penetration channel was left by this bullet.

With these type of results one could confidently hunt any plains game in South Africa over reasonable distances for a .308 with a 130gr GS Custom HV bullet.

Over longer distances I would say switch to something like a 7mm Rem Mag and still use a GSC HV 130gr. It will do the work for you as long as you, the hunter, can place the shots properly with both these rifles.

Hence my preference to hunt plains game with these premium bullets - extremely effective with minimal meat damage.

The fact that any other bullet, that mushrooms in a more controlled way, does not tumble in a dry stack of glossy paper is by no means proof that the Impala, a non expanding solid, is ineffective. For example, I have shot 175 gr 7 mm Barnes-X bullets into a wet pack and they did not tumble either - and the same can be said for the Rhino's and the Claws that I have shot - the pictures were published in the SA Hunter. Penetration all differed as both momentum and expanded frontal areas differed. Contrasting a soft bullet (Claw) with a mono-metal bullet (GS-HV) in dry glossy paper is almost as meaningless as shooting bullets against a steel metal plate when we want to make deductions as to its use in game.

Now, the initial premise or inference was that Impala bullets were not reliable, as they tumbled in a pack of dry glossy paper during the last 6.7% of its journey to come to a stop at 15 cm. Tiggertate pointed out in his posting that tumbling of a solid in game can be highly effective and I have personally seen such wound channels and can only agree with Tiggertate. However, the fact remains that a bullet that takes the form, after striking, of a flat expanded area or just a cylinder that shed its petals, is bound to exhibit a point-on position in the target more often than not. We should consider when a bullet tumbles ... after it has gone through the vitals or before and so missed the vitals - the effect is very different.

Over expansion will result in shallow penetration and that is a bad thing, given a shot that encounters more resistance to stop a bullet before it reaches the vitals. More often than not, Barnes-X bullets will go straight through, but still provide double caliber expansion to cause a larger wound as opposed to a non-expanding solid. That is why I like them. Sure there will be some that say they prefer bullets with even bigger expanding frontal areas, such as North Forks or Swift A-Frames or Rhinos. Personally I do not like a bullet that sheds its petals easily, which is mostly due to high velocity. Here we have the two schools of thought - 'slow and heavy' and 'fast and light' - and so it will be, and never the twine shall meet.

I still remember Canuck saying that he will go back to his Swift A-Frames and dump the .375 265 gr HV bullet, as most all of them tumbled in game on that particular hunt. I have not seen anything in print on AR what the final verdict was, but perhaps Gerard is still inspecting these bullets in question under his microscope, as to why they did not open up and veered off course. So you see the matter is not quite so simple. Bullets can refuse to open, open up just slightly, or open up more on one side than on the other side, it can encounter bone at an angle and tumble or even tumble without striking bone.

This brings me back to the Impala bullet. A friend of mine has just experimented with Impala bullets this past season in his 270 Win and 458 Lott. Anyone is welcome to contact Rudi Campbell to hear first hand how happy he is. Straight-line penetration is the norm, but I am sure no one can guarantee it each and every time, as we cannot control all imponderables. I accompanied Rudi on this hunt and can testify to the effectiveness of the Impala 300 grainer in his Lott.

Chris

The two posts containing the pictures above clearly highlighted the following very important facts all hunters should take note of, namely:
(a) Tumbling bullets penetrate less deeply than highly stable bullets;

(b) Much more meat damage would result from the use of tumbling bullets;

(c) As was clearly pointed out by tiggertate

quote:

Tumbling is good in a non-dangerous game situation.

Don't use bullets with a tendency to tumble on dangerous game - penetrates poorly and may never even reach the vitals.

(d) The GSC HV's can not be labelled with over expansion since they have penetrated far better with their controlled expansion than the other non-expanding bullet.

(e) Lastly, the GSCHV that shed all it's petals penetrated the deepest - telling that a fair comparison would be between a GSC FN (Flat Nose) and the Impala where one could dare to say that the FN would penetrate even deeper than the HV.

Can we see GSC FN results as well?

I would have expected these recovered HV bullets to look like dandy triplets. My recovered Barnes-X bullets looked like brothers.

Gerard made some time back snarling remarks about the recovered bullets that Lutz Moller displayed on his site and boasted that his product is superior and looks better. These HV bullets don't look so good and performance was not uniform - each one penetrated to a different depth. Or was the density of the dry pack not even? Or was the annealing on the bullets not the same? Or was the the copper from differnt batches to start with? Or whatever?

This is not to degrade the bullet by any means, it just goes to show that one can pick faults if you really wanted to and that no bullet is perfect.

Chris

Peeping around on web sites yield a lot of very interesting information.
Hunters should certainly take note of all these info and realise that bigger is not always better!

On the Rhino web site, the following:

quote:

*Eland Bull:*

July 2001

Place: Northam
Hunter: PH Mr. I.E. van Wyk
Caliber: 7 x 57
Bullet: 170gr Rhino @ 2250 fps

Distance +-70 meters "Plankdwars". Entrance left point of shoulder through left shoulder joint through right shoulder joint, lodged under skin on right shoulder. Eland bull managed 10 feet & was dead when I reached it. Bullet lost petals after going through bones, to me 100% bullet performance!

"plankdwars" = perfect broadsided.



When looking at this picture one would ask:
(a) Why didn't the bullet exit after shooting through the soft bones of an Eland bullcalf?
(b) How did the poor little bullcalf managed two walk at all with both shoulders broken?
(c) Finally Rhino bullets lose their petals? Isn't that impossible?

On this web site:

quote:

I have seen the deadly effect of a 458 Impala bullet that was shot through the engine room of a Blue Wildebeest ......
........I accompanied Rudi on this hunt and can testify to the effectiveness of the Impala 300 grainer in his Lott.

Also this interesting little bit:

quote:

Personally I do not like a bullet that sheds its petals easily, which is mostly due to high velocity.

Is 2250fps high velocity?

On the GS Custom web site:

quote:

A tale of two Black Wildebeest -
During the 2005 season, Attie was required to follow up on a Black Wildebeest that was wounded with a neck shot by a bowhunter. The opportunity for a shot came at 345 metres and presented a slightly quartering, almost broadside shot. The 40gr HV bullet entered forward on the left leg, punched through the second rib and the top of the heart and exited between the fourth and fifth ribs on the right. The neck wound from the bow shot can be seen in the photo on the right below.

Still on the GS Custom web site:

quote:

The Black Wildebeest below was the loser in a fight for dominance and was injured. Attie also had an order for a carcass from a local butcher and this required that a head shot be taken. Cover for stalking in the area did not exist and the closest Attie could get to the animal was 230 metres. After careful assesment of the conditions, he decided that it was safe to take a head shot and he hit the Black Wildebeest below the horns for a perfect brain shot.

quote:

Attie is a professional hunter specialising in balancing herds for the best breeding qualities and also does culling for the venison market. He is often called upon to sort out the mistakes of others in sometimes difficult situations.

Jagter,

How do you know exactly where the shoulder bone was hit and how 'soft' the bones are. Bones will invariably rip a petals off depending on the angle of attack, especially thick bones. And, take note, the higher the velocity the more easily the threshold strength of a bullet s exceeded. This is one of the issues that I have agianst HV bullets at high striking velocity.

Then very important .... do you know where the petals came off? On entering the first shoulder or after going through the vitals and hit the second shoulder bone? Huh? Also, have you done any experimental testing of bone as part of a medical or veterinary course to know the differential hardness of bones between ages of say 1 year to 5 years? When does bone reach full hardness? Also how old is the young Eland bull in question? Does the thickness of bone play a role? How thick is the shoulder bone of an eland bull versus a cow or any other antelope? Analyzing on a remote control basis is not only speculative but could actually blow up in your face.

Most all conventional and some premium bullets shed petals far more easily than the stronger constructed Rhino Bullet. My preference remains, I do not like bullets that shed petals BEFORE they enter the vitals, which is what Mauritz Coetzee observed with GS-HV bullets on small and frail game without hitting any bone. This happened a number of times - just phone Mauritz Coetzee he will explain to you in greater detail, such as springbuck running another 200 yards and multiple shots need to be administered. How does that compare with Mr. van Wyk's young Eland Bull that fell dead within 10 paces?

I probably shot more Rhino bullets in different calibers than most, as I was doing the testing and hence I have the proof of how Rhino bullets compare with others. The various tests that I conducted over a 5 year period convinced me that is one of the best hunting bullets available that I have tested.



Chris

CB asked:

quote:

How do you know exactly where the shoulder bone was hit and how 'soft' the bones are.

Rhino web site told me where:

quote:

Entrance left point of shoulder through left shoulder joint through right shoulder joint, lodged under skin on right shoulder.

Need more detail?

How

quote:

Mr. van Wyk's young Eland Bull that fell dead within 10 paces?

managed to walk those 10 paces after the above is a miracle!

As for the softness of the bones, judging by the ease with which the young hunter in the picture balances the bullcalf's relatively thin neck on his one leg with one hand, I can't help to think that the poor animal was not even properly weaned! A baby's bones are really soft, don't you think?

CB asked:

quote:

Then very important .... do you know where the petals came off?

Ask your friend here in the next paragraph since he has got X-ray eyes and wonderful abilities to observe the impossible!

quote:

I do not like bullets that shed petals BEFORE they enter the vitals, which is what Mauritz Coetzee observed with GS-HV bullets on small and frail game without hitting any bone.

If you believe the above observation, be my quest and don't cry if you are labelled "FOOL of 2005"!

Jagter,

The collective experience between me and Mauritz with regard to the performance of Rhino bullets is such that we hardly need your cynical comments about Rhino bullets. I am sure Mauritz would also award you the title of asshole of the year.

If you will only visit Mauritz in his shop, he can show you scores of retrieved Rhino bullets without the loss of petals, and here and there some that lost a petal. The evidence is overwhelming. As a matter of fact, just incase you doubt what I am telling you, Alf saw it with his own eyes when he visited and he made reference to it right here on AR.

Between me and Pieter Olivier we also have a canfruit bottle full of retrieved bullets. Amongst the 3 of us and a bunch of PH's there is no doubt that the Rhino bullet is the No.1 hunting bullet in South Africa.

Your attempt to discredit the Rhino bullet by virtue of the fact that the Eland could go 10 paces is laughable - try to get your head around the fact that the Springbuck could go 200 meters and still took multiple shots before going down.

You are welcome to meet with the 3 of us in Mauritz's shop - he offers free coffee to customers and once you get to no Mauritz, and you are able to put this shit behind your back, you will realize we need more of his kind to make this place a better place.

If we don't see, best wishes for the festive season.
Chris

quote:

This is not to degrade the bullet by any means, it just goes to show that one can pick faults if you really wanted to and that no bullet is perfect.

Gerard and Jagter,

Just in case you have missed this phrase. This applies to all bullets. Let me sight some examples of what has happened:

1) Alf's older generation Rhino bullet that was not guided at the tip did not open on a Bison.

2) A 300 gr .375 Swift A-Frame broke in half on the shoulder of a buffalo and it fled into the bush

3) Canuck's HV bullets did not open up, at leat the one that was retrieved and it tumbled against all odds.

This list can be never ending. Now is this slander when we relay all these incidents?

Chris

quote:

Now is this slander when we relay all these incidents?

It is when you blatantly lie and thumbsuck "facts" out of thin air.

Gerard,

You mean fabricating the facts, not misinterpreting the facts? Cheating to obscure? Not so much what happened, but how it is was explained? So, speculating about the true facts are thus forbidden and having different ballistic views that diametrically oppose those of your peers are viewed as malcious?

My dictionary says ... "a false statement made to damage a person's reputation" This seems to address more the person than the product, not so? His conduct, his dealings, his honesty (when people say your statements are untruthful, etc), his cheating, his business practises and making unfounded character attacks.

Chris

Chris,
Way to go!