I am going to build a new rifle that will mainly be used to punch paper. The rifle will be a standard action with a bell and carlson stock and a good ($200-300) medium contour barrel.

With this kind of rifle will I notice any difference in group size with a 6mm BR or 6mm PPC caliber versus a .243 or 7mm-08? I would prefer one of the more common rounds because of the availabiltiy and cost of brass etc... but I dont want to sacrifice accuracy. Any suggestions?

Why not a .308?Perfect as a deer gun and go look how many 1000 yard matches are shot with them.Military surplus brass is cheap for paper punching (if you reload)
For the money you are talking about spending you can buy a
new Remington 700 VS or a Savage.
Howard

I would reccommend against the 6 PPC's etc. as a deer round since they usually have twist rates for lighter bullets than are available in good hunting types. Also with a 6 PPC you may have to form cases, neck turn etc.
As far as a round for Target shooting it depends on what type. If you are going to do silhouette shooting Magnums aren't allowed (and you wouldn't want to use them anyway). For general target shooting there are several rounds that are very accurate and yet can be used for High-Power, Silhouette etc.
For High-Power shooting I think that the 6.5's are about optimum and they also are excellent in High-Power Silhouette. I've heard some complaints about 260 Remington accuracy so I think if you want a 6.5 a 6.5x284 would be best but the brass is expensive.
A 7-08 is a very accurate round that would be about perfect for deer hunting and is a very popular silhouette round. The selection of .284 bullets is a lot wider than for 6.5 as is factory ammo. This is probably the best all around choice.
I'm a big fan of 308's, I currently own several (and no 7-08's). Recoil is greater than with the 7-08 -my buddies allways complained when borrowing my 308 Silhouette rifle. Accuracy is maybe the best overall between 260,7-08, and 308. Of course the selection of 30 cal bullets is enormous. Superb Match quality Ammo is also available over the counter in 308, as is inexpensive surplus practice ammo. If you don't mind a little more recoil choose the 308 over the others.
So they all have advantages and disadvantages but there are several that IMHO would probably work for you..............DJ

Can you define "punch paper" some more? I can see buying a rifle off the rack that turns me on but to build one and not have a more specific goal?

Short of a specific goal the US military cartridges rule. So that means a 223 or a 308. Since most "cartridges" have similar accuracy one needs an accurate rifle first. Almost any will make a hole in paper.

Search the local club or the NRA site for the dates of matches and go to one or more and see what they are doing there.

I have shot in competition for a long time and what wins is the rifleman and not the cartridge. I have done better over the years with a low recoil load for the specific event.

What are you trying to do? Start one of those infinitely long threads???

I'll boldly offer an opinion: If you're in the west, any 308 casing, from 6.5mm to 308 will work just fine... if you're in the east, where the deer are a little smaller, anything from 243 to 308 will work just fine.

My particular favorite is the 6.5x55 Swede. The published loads for it do not reflect its full performance capability. You can get very close to 3100 fps, with a 120 grain bullet, and that will make a big mulie very dead. Of course, the case is just a little bigger than the 308.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the other cartridges mentioned. All will work quite well. It's mostly a matter of personal preference.

Your Montana address makes me suspect you'd be shooting longer ranges and maybe bigger deer than would be typical here. Therefore I'd steer clear of 6mm or .243 in favor of 7mm 08 or 308. A host of ammo choices and component options for either. Between the two I'd lean to 7mm 08 just because one will generally shoots better with a little less recoil and 7mm 08 should be adequate for any deer. If you really want to reach way out maybe a 25' 06. So many lovely options! Let us know what you pick.

My first thought when reading just the title was... 7mm-08 followed closely by 308.

I see others are saying pretty much the same thing.

25-06!

I am primarily interested in a low recoil target round capable of 1/2" groups at 100 yards in a semi-custom rifle. The ability to hunt deer would be a bonus, but it's a secondary consideration. I'd like to find a round that will approach 3000 fps in a short action rifle.

What difference in accuracy will I see between a 7mm BR and a 7mm-08 in this scenario?

For what you've described, I'd put a slightly heavy contour Pac-Nor barrel on a short or medium action. A Yugo Mauser makes a decent host for that. Put on a Timney trigger. The resulting rifle will be a little on the heavy side, which is a something to think about if you are carrying it for long distances. But, it will be accurate, and you will enjoy its milder recoil at the range.



The 25-06 is, no doubt, a superb long distance deer and pronghorn round. However, the 6.5x55 will hold right with it on trajectory if it is loaded to its full capability.



I hadn't noticed the Montana location... that does simplify it. Anything with at least a 308 case or larger, with a 6.5 mm bullet or larger, is going to work fine.

I would look hard @ a .260rem. or .260AI in a short action. There are alot of good match bullets available. With a 24" bbl. you can get to 3000fps w/ a 120gr bullet. This round is no slouch on deer size game either. You can get near 3300fps w/ 85-90gr bullets for varminting. I think it's a much better round than the any of the 6mm because you can push 140gr bullets out @ 2700fps+ for really big deer. Nothing wrong w/ the 6.5X55, but it doesn't fit well in a 2.8" action.

In a custom built rifle, with a medium barrel, I doubt you'd see an amazing amount of difference between any of the calibers mentioned. All can be quite accurate. It also depends on how much recoil you like to put up with. My son doesn't like big kickers, even things like the 7mm mag and 30/06. I on the other hand don't seem to be bothered by moderate kickers such as the 30/06, and will sit a shoot one all afternoon without any problem, (til the next day, when I'm a little sore). If recoil is a problem, one notch down from the 30/06 and 308 class is the 7mm-08, 270 calibers, and another notch down would be the .260/.243 25/06. These would be comfortable to shoot for extended periods for almost anyone. I will say that some of the 25/06 rifles I've shot had ferocious muzzle blast, and were not comfortable to deal with for long periods of shooting. The blast becomes annoying. Of couse a lot of that depends on the load and barrel length. I can tell you that in the long action, I like the 30/06 class, any of them, with the most of my shooting being either the 30/06 or .280. In the short action, I like the .260 a lot, and the 7mm-08 is a close second.
Pick the one you like the most and you'll probably be very happy with it as long as the 'smith does his job.

I had misgivings about my 1-8 / .260AI because I wanted to shoot 85-90gr vrmint bullets as well as 142grSMK for long range target. Well, RR is right, I have several loads that put the Sierra 85gr into less than .5moa @ 3400fps+. I have yet to try the Speer 90gr. The 27" hvy PAcnor launches the 142grSMK @ 2850fps & is also an honest .5moa on good days. All that from a M700SA. Makes me think I need one in a 23" sporter weight.

Seems to me the 260, 7mm08, and 308 are each well supported by both the precision rifle crowd as well as the makers of game bullets so it would be hard to go wrong with any of them. Were it my money I'd get a 260 with a 24 inch medium sporter 1:8 twist barrel throated for the longest .264 Matchking Sierra makes loaded to SAAMI standard OAL. Have fun deciding.

Well i agree why not the 308 win it has everything you desire

What fredj338 said, is dead on. I would have a hard time picking one better than the 260 or the 260 A.I. Since you go by the name of "elkhntr" my guess is that you have a dedicated elk rifle. If you were planning on using this rifle for elk, the 7mm-08, or the 308 MIGHT be a better choice for them. The 260 meets what it seems you want to do. Easily .5MOA or better out of a good match grade barrel, and rifle that is put together right. By all means use a 1 in 8 twist. Don't ever think a 1 in 8 twist won't shoot the 85 and 90 gr. bullets very well and the 8 twist gives you the option of shooting the heaviest 6.5 mm bullets made. Using a Speer 90 gr. TNT with 45 gr. of IMR 4064 in Rem. brass ingnited by a Fed. 210M primer I am getting 3465 fps avg. and it consistently shoots .5 MOA or better. Using the Sierra 120 gr. ProHunter with 41.4 gr of IMR 4064 in Remington brass ingnited with again a Fed. 210 I am 3007 fps. This load will shoot consistently .5 MOA as well. Using a 140 gr. Sierra BSP with 42 gr. of H4350 EXT in Rem. brass ingnited with a CCI BR-2 primer I am getting 2740 avg. fps and this load has never shot a 5 shot group larger than .461" for 5 shots with a few bugholes. The barrel is a Krieger 1 in 8 twist finished at 24".

The 90 gr. bullet is really hard on coyotes. I have not had a coyote take a step when hit with this bullet. The 120 gr. kills deer like lightening hit them. And the 140 gr. has completly penetrated every hog I have shot with it, including breaking bones along the way. Again the dead right there. I have an F class match rifle chambered in 260 and it is a very legitimate 1000 yard cartridge. It shoots good enough to shoot a 200 with an X count in the 10 to 15 range if I do my part. With a 260 A.I. you can add about 100 to 125 fps more accurate velocity with each bullet weight.

In my opinion you are going to be hard pressed to beat either the 260 or the 260 A.I.

RiverRat

I don't know diddly about twist rates, but did go through an episode of trying to work out the right rate for a 6.5x55, and did learn one little thing.

I had assumed that you just picked a fast enough twist for the heaviest bullet you intend to shoot, and that was that.

Well, almost.

When you start getting into lighter bullets, with higher MV, you're turning more RPM as the bullet exits. This will exaggerate any effects due to bullet imbalance.

All I'm saying is, when you pick your twist, spend some quality time with your barrel supplier, and make sure he understands exactly the range of bullets you expect to use. Then get some advice on twist rate. 1:8 may be perfect, but it isn't easy to undo the twist choice, once you make it, and there is more to it than I understood.

I'll bet that 260 AI is a terrific gun.

I'm doing a 6.5x55, with a Pac Nor barrel, 24", FN action. There was a problem with it, but they are fixing it. My preliminary data was just a trifle shy of 3100 with 120 grainers. If it performs as well as your AI, I'll be thrilled. We settled on 1:9 twist.

The rifle is a little on the heavy side, but I spend most of my time at the range, so, for me, it's a good compromise. If it will reliably do prairie dogs at 3-400 yards, I'll consider it good enough. It's other use is pronghorn. I figure that I can take 10 pounds off of me, and then the gun is effectively weightless.

fredj338, I just had a 260 sporter put together. I used a trued Rem. S.A. Pillar and glass bedded in a Bell and Carlson CarboLite camo stock. The barrel is a #3 tapper stainless Krieger 1 in 8 twist that I had cryo'd a second time before chambering. The chamber was cut with the same reamer my other 260's were cut with. I had the barrel finished at 24" The action and the barrel are finsihed with a flat OD green baked on Teflon gun coat. It looks darn good in the stock. I also had the stock firing pin and spring replaced with a Tubb's Speedlock pin and spring. I have a Leupold 3 X 9 X 33 compact on it in Burris Signature rings using a Leupold windage adjustable base. While it is not a true light weight it @ 7 lbs. 14 oz. it is 3 lbs lighter than my other 260 that I hunt with, and 8 lbs lighter than my F class rifle. It turned out to be a pretty darn good looking rifle. So far I have 9 rounds down the tube breaking it in. Showing good progress on the fouling slowing down. I am going to shoot 4 three shot strings and see what it looks like. If it looks good at that point I will move on to load development.

RiverRat

Why not buy a Remington 700 varmint 308 with synthetic stock. Mine shoots reloads sub inch groups with only floating the barrel. It will shoot Milsurp around 1.5". Mine is a laminate stock. The gun will cost $6-700 and you can go from there. capt david

RR, sounds about like what I am looking for. Maybe just get a M700 mtn. rifle & call it good.

Your original post said "standard" action. In a middle post you said "short" action. What action will you be using for this barrel and stock? While it is true the 6.5x55SE won't make it on a short, it is one of the finest shooting cartridges and chambers you will find. It is easy on the shoulder, increadibly accurate, and very deadly on game. In fact much more deadly than it's paper ballistics indicate. Many who use it eventually leave the rest of the guns home and never look back.

If you handload and want something very fast and fun to shoot, I would suggest the 243 Ackley Improved. It is very fast out of a 24-inch barrel, light on recoil, accurate, and will drop deer size game in their tracks. Other standards, Ackleys and wildcats I would suggest are 257 Roberts, 250 AI (excellent), 257 Roberts AI, and the 25 Souper (perhaps one of the best case capacities per caliber there is). All of these are great fun to shoot from the bench and will triple nicely as a paper puncher, varminter and big game rig.

Cheers,
rossi

You COULD chamber it for some cartridge other than the 7.62X51mm NATO, but it would be no great tribute to your intelligence if you do!

Or a round that uses the same case!!!!!!!

6,5x55 Swedish

Cheers,

Andr�

I recently went through this whole thought process too.

I settled on a Remington 700 short action, barreled with a Krieger 1-11 twist #4 (heavy sporter) contour in 308 Win. The barrel is due to arrive the first week of January. The action is from a 308 ADL that I had around which was of only mediocre accuracy. I have an H&S Precision stock for it and a Leupold 3-10 waiting for it. Plus, I shoot a lot of .30 caliber rounds and have a ton of brass and bullets already. Made my choice easy.

Should be great for deer or paper.