I've just come into a Winchester M70 Supergrade and I need a value on it. Photos and S/N later in the morning of 24 October 2012.

The last time a handled it I believe I found it to be 1952 manufacture. I fired it a few times about five years ago and got a one-inch group at 100 yards with factory ammo. IIRC, there was no corrosion visible at that time. The fore end cap appears slightly askew. Before my firing it, I suspect it nod not been fired in 30 years or so. It functioned well.

But for those items, it appears to be a fine piece - all original, as far as I can tell.

This piece has a few oddities about it. First, it has a bear carved on the butt stock - nicely done, if you like that kind of thing. (I believe the original owner bought it at a PX in Japan when he was stationed there, and had the bear carved by an artist there.) Second, it's very heavy - maybe as much as 10 pounds, though I can't recall what I measured those years ago. Finally, I can't get the action out of the stock - it may well be fiberglass-locked in place.

Can someone give me a bottom value, pending more exact description?

The floor means it's a .30-06. The bear trashes it insofar as collector value. Yes, they are heavy. I would be surprised if you could not get $5-600 for it. Too bad, as an unmolested post-war SG in '06 would bring roughly $1500.

Obviously, pics will help. And if it's not an '06 values go up. Sam

Thanks, Sam - I was afraid of that. Yes, it's an '06.

Maybe I'll cut the stock off, return the bear to the heirs, and just sell the barreled action. It would be easier to handle and ship that way. It would be a fine basis for a build with a custom stock.

Again, thanks.

You might not have to cut the stock off. I brought a rifle that was glassed in.

I brought some mold release and poured some along the action let it sit and after a while I was able to pop the action out.

Make sure you try a small hidden spot frist. To make sure it doesn't harm the blueing. The stuff I had didn't.

You might also try freezeing the rifle and then try to get the action out.

Then after you get the actio out find a correct factory stock for it.

$500 - $600 value

Kroils Oil it's the best penetrating oil made and will not harm metal, but will destroy wood.

I got the action out of the stock - it wasn't glassed in, it was just that tight from being inletted!

Well, someone will get one fine hunting rifle, notwithstanding the lack of collectibility.

<Older, low-Q pics removed in favor of the better (though not professional) pics in my Friday, 2 Nov 2012, posting.>

No more pics, though. I decided to send this home and sell it more leisurely, rather than trying to hurry it today.

From your description of the rifle I am not sure how familiar with pre-64 Model 70s you are. So this is not meant to insult you in any way, just to provide info. Many pre-64 Model 70s are held to the stock by FOUR bolts/screws, NOT just the regular two main ones which most rifles use through the tgrigger-guard/floorplate assembly.


One is part of the front sing swivel, which must be completelunscrewed to release the front of the stock. Another is under the trigger guard at the back of the magazine well area.

Now, all of this is from memory, so I could be remembering it wrong. If so, many others will pipe up and correct me. But I think that is the way mine are.

Anyway, before you do any cutting off of the stock, I recommend that if you can't remove it easily yourself, you take it to a friend or shop familiar with the Model 70 and ask them to do it for you. No decent shop would charge you more than $20 to do that, and many would show you how to do it, for nothing.

And, as the barreled action is worth at least $500-600, I suspect that even with the bear carved on the stock, ,the whole gun will be worth at least $600 to $700 to some shooter/hunter who doesn't give a tinker's damn about collectibility.

Sorry for the instructions...I was typing my post when your info about successfully getting the stock off was posted.

Anyway, I would be surprised if you couldn't get at least $600 for it with any sound, useful, stock on it.

I think $1,500 for a pre-64 Supergrade in good condition is about $1,000 too low. Even in 30-06 (that and the 270 are the most common), I would think a good original would bring $2,500. In this case, with the stock carving, it's pretty much whatever someone is willing to pay for it, unfortunately. I would think you're still in the $900-$1,100 range.

No sweat, Canuck. In fact, I didn't know and took it to a gunsmith to see if he could "unstick" it. He did and it looked new underneath.

This "collector value" thing is a two-edged sword. Yes it's great that folks run the value up on good items we might have been lucky (or smart) enough to keep pristine. OTOH, this M70 was made to be a "rifleman's rifle," not a showcase objet d'art - this thing should be hunted, not displayed.

Maybe the original owner's mistake will let this rifle be enjoyed the way it was supposed to be - it looks new, accurate, has shine on the stock, but don't worry about brambles. Rant mode off. Sorry - it's just that I wish I could have found this during my hunting days.

An 80% (very conservatively) all original SG .270 was auctioned off here in ME last month. Of note, it was a transition model and a .270 (not a postwar '06). It brought just under $2k. When you deduct buyers 15% and probable 10% sellers the consignor got less than $1600.

There may be regional variation in values, but in New England $2500-$3000 for a '06 postwar SG would imply NIB-unfired, not merely good original.

Collector vs shooter resentments cut both ways. It really PO's collectors when they encounter a gun like this '06....about as much as shooters get PO'd about prices of collectible examples.

Truth is, there are plenty of collectible and hunt-able examples around when it comes to M-70s. Perhaps not in .264 Mag or .35 Rem, but then what can a hunter/shooter do with a .264 or .35 Rem that he can't do with a .270 or '06?

Sam

Sam, I suspect you're right about the availability of huntable M70s, but from my limited experience, it has meant either beaters or suspected Franken-rifles assembled from different actions, barrels, and stocks. This one isn't that - it's basically new, except it apparently has no collector value. Oh, well - I'd have probably got tired carrying this over hill and dale, anyway. Soon, what to do with it will be someone else's problem. I expect I'll list it here on AR first and see if someone can learn to ignore the bear.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaywalker:
I'd have probably got tired carrying this over hill and dale, anyway. Soon, what to do with it will be someone else's problem.

And this is the real problem with them as "shooters". If you think an '06 is heavy, understand that WW used the same bbl profile for everything from Hornet (.224 hole) to .338, albeit lengths varied. Nobody wants to hike miles with a 10# loaded/scoped/sling rifle. This is why Jack O'Connor's usual practice was to sing the M-70 praises, but rebarrel and restock the .270s he had.

Yours is really nice, though. Put it out there for $1000 and see if something happens.

Sam

Good idea. I'll post a reply here when I do it. Again, thanks, all, for the help.

I know how you feel about the carving. I have a pre-WWII Model 70 in .300 Wby which was rechambered by Roy Weatherby himself from .300 H&H. Then, later in a hunting camp, someone decided to help the then-owner out by "beautifying" the stock. They flattened the sharp end of a nail, made a carving gouge out of it, and carved an elk on one side of the buttstock a bear on the other, and a greyhound chasing a fox on the forend.

TALK ABOUT UGLY!!!

Those were the days when here in the west there weren't many roads, still fewer 4x4s, and de rigeur for elk camp was to pack in with horses, and spend at least a week there. The down side was that it gave boredom and John Barleycorn a chance to spawn such evil deeds as stock carving with a nail.

Well, anyway, I luckily had several brand new take-off stocks laying around in those days and was able to just replace the stock with a genuine original of the correct period, after I bought the gun for a mere short whistled tune.

I've always had mixed emotions about replacing that stock though...the rifle shot many sub-1" 5-shot groups at 200 yards with the old carved one. It is pretty darned accurate even with the replacement though. It will still shoot 1-1/4" first-3-shots groups at 200.

The really good part, I guess, is that we get to deal with all this stuff, play around correcting what we can, and spend some other time playing "if only....."


(BTW, I believe anyone who can't pack a 10 pound rifle over hill and dale should give up hunting until he gets into decent physical shape. Will be better for himself and the game he will wound and need to track down (and carry out, hopefully). A Garand loaded with 8 rounds of live ammo weighs about 10 pounds or a little more. God only knows how we could have won the war with today's bountiful crop of lard asses.)

pm sent

When it (and a 1903-A3) get home I'll have an opportunity to get some better photos (not hand-held, and in better light, anyway) to post up on the Classified.

I think you are getting some bad information. A super grade barreled action is worth a grand and I just paid a hundred bucks for a set of swivels. I would give you $1100 for it in a blink.

Jay:

Here's the deal. The pre 64 Winchesters have a cult following. LJS is right. If you can find one of the cult members, they will give you a handful of money for it. On the other hand, to non cult guys, they are just old guns. I am not a cult member so I wouldn't pay more than a couple hundred bucks for it. The bear carved in the stock really lowers the value to me. To be honest, the guns being made today in North Carolina are at least as good as the pre 64s and a whole bunch cheaper but like I said, if you can find a cult member.....

Well, Jaywalker, looks like a happy ending. LJS is your man. Take his $1100.

Dave Bush has it right, though.

Sam

Very kind. Right now it and the 03/A3 are both in transit. Let me put it up on Classified after it gets delivered - I don't want to sell anything I don't have in hand. We are homing in on the asking price, for sure, which was the purpose of this thread.

Sounds like you have an $1100 offer from LJS. I'd take it.....

quote:

Originally posted:
I think you are getting some bad information. A super grade barreled action is worth a grand and I just paid a hundred bucks for a set of swivels. I would give you $1100 for it in a blink.

The information he is getting may not be perfection in every respect, but I don't think it is "bad".

When it comes to the bare, unstocked, barreled actions, there is little difference between the Standard Grade and the Super Grade guns of the pre-'64 era.

Here is one quote from a site which sells a lot of both, and succinctly puts it exactly as I recall it from the days when ALL Model 70s were "pre-'64s":

------------
"The Super Grade:

The Super grade guns had sling swivels similar to the now commonly known Quick Take-Down type only they were about ½" wide at the base. The bows were made of a crude casting (which was well polished before installing). Very late SG guns & factory replacement parts, used a narrower base that is compatible with the common QD bases. The magazine cover has "SUPER GRADE" stamped in the outside of the cover. The front sight was a Redfield sourdough. Wood was a higher grade than was found on the standard grade guns. There was a grip cap on these versions."

----------------------



A lot of fake Super Grades have been made and sold simply by installing a forend tip, grip cap, Redfield front sight, "Super
Grade-style" sling swivels, and a floor plate marked Super Grade, whether originally marked that way or not.

As to the barrel and the action, they had no significant differences from one grade to another.

There was once a fairly thriving small industry in the U.S. making fake "Super Grade-Style" swivels.

Prewar standard and supergrade M-70 bbl/actions do not differ much. Wood, swivels, stamping on the floorplate - those are the identifiers.

Postwar standard grade bbl/actions in SG stocks can be easily identified as such b/c of the hot blue bbl finish on the standard grade bbl. Postwar SGs had rust blued bbls. Stainless bbls (usually Swifts) are the exception (stainless was iron plated, then rust blued). It wouldn't be too difficult to fit a SG stock/hardware to a postwar standard grade Swift bbl/action.

Of course post war standard grade bbls can be rust reblued.

Sam

The M70 Super Grade is scheduled to arrive Thursday, so I expect to notify Thursday or Friday as to when I will put in the Classified. I appreciate the help with it.

Here are the updated pics I mentioned.










I'll definitely put it on the AR Classified board in the next few days, after posting here to let folks know it's about to happen. Right after that, I'll PM the people who have requested one.

Guys, I appreciate the help.

For those who asked - I'm getting ready to post this for sale in the AR Classified section.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...901007181#9901007181

LJS, you have a PM.